[Archived] Paul Ince Gone

[unluckymorton]

No you're turning into a rather annoying Hughesy mk2 with your sickeningly bias opinion and pathetic twisting of reality to make all things pro Rovers.

your sickeningly bias opinion and pathetic twisting of reality to make all things pro Rovers.

Isn't being a supporter of the club about supporting the club through thick and thin? If I was mellison24 I'd take that post as a compliment, Hughesy is one of the few on here who consistently talks sense and seems a true supporter of the club.

It's a shame more fans can't be realistic and realise that we are no longer the team of the 90's and that every season we stay in the top flight is a success. We are improving slowly, we cant ask for more.

Maybe we should turn into the likes of Newcastle and demand managers are fired 2-3 times a season and have no stability and become a laughing stock? Then what little money we may have can be paid out in compensation and we can join the likes of Charlton & Leeds in the lower divisions.

[S15]

your sickeningly bias opinion and pathetic twisting of reality to make all things pro Rovers.

Isn't being a supporter of the club about supporting the club through thick and thin? If I was mellison24 I'd take that post as a compliment, Hughesy is one of the few on here who consistently talks sense and seems a true supporter of the club.

It's a shame more fans can't be realistic and realise that we are no longer the team of the 90's and that every season we stay in the top flight is a success. We are improving slowly, we cant ask for more.

Maybe we should turn into the likes of Newcastle and demand managers are fired 2-3 times a season and have no stability and become a laughing stock? Then what little money we may have can be paid out in compensation and we can join the likes of Charlton & Leeds in the lower divisions.

Hughesy one of the few who consistently talks sense? Really?

I'm sure you are fully aware of the kind of posts I make and the opinions contained within them?

Hughesy and Mellison are imbalanced towards completely being completely untrue in what they post most the time. Just because they are imbalanced in the 'right direction' doesn't make their posts any less annoying to read than reading a post by one of the doom mongers.

[Parsonblue]

I honestly expected us to be up with Sunderland/Fulham and Stoke thus far and am disappointed we are not.

The three clubs you mention all have wealthy backers and have spent far more than ourselves in the transfer market. Last season Fulham spent a little over £20 million. Sunderland where able to sign Bent while we had to look for a cheaper option. Perhaps you can explain where you see this cash coming from for Sam?

[unluckymorton]

Hughesy one of the few who consistently talks sense? Really?

I'm sure you are fully aware of the kind of posts I make and the opinions contained within them?

Hughesy and Mellison are imbalanced towards completely being completely untrue in what they post most the time. Just because they are imbalanced in the 'right direction' doesn't make their posts any less annoying to read than reading a post by one of the doom mongers.

No disrespect Shillito, I just get sick of the 'doom mongers' as you put it so well. Everybody is allowed to voice there opinion but the continued comments knocking everything Rovers on a Rovers supporters website riles me. I believe that we should all be pro Rovers and look on the bright side rather than all the constant doom and gloom. We get knocked enough in the media, we don't need our own fans doing it too.

[Eddie]

Sometimes it isn't about how much you spent, but rather the quality of the squad. I actually think we still have a better team than both Sunderland and Fulham, as well as a couple of other sides above us. They may have spent more than us in recent seasons, but they were playing catch-up at the time. As I said, the money can't be used as an excuse for me at the moment, Allardyce did spend a decent amount in the summer (yes, raised by selling, but raised by selling a player who was barely involved last year) and so far the significant summer signings have yet to play a part. You can't bemoan lack of funds and then blow 6 million and 60-70k a week on what have so far been squad players (I still like the Kalinic signing, but I'm going on what he has actually done so far).

We may well have a good season now, but anything below 12th is a poor season really and anything below 15th and we're looking at a bad one. For all the doom and gloom when it comes to the quality of the side, and I am one of the more critical ones when it comes to that, we still have quite a few players who were integral parts of a side that finished 6th not that long ago, as well as a few signings since then who have played important roles for other equally, and sometimes more, successful clubs.

I'm sure that last paragraph will get a few jumping out of their seats, asking me how can I possibly set my expectations so high for a club that spends so little, is in such a small town and should just be pleased to be where it is? My answer: because recent history has shown me that it is possible and that is what I've come to expect. A couple of seasons ago we were a "top ten" side, a possibility for top 6, even one of the very dark horses for a champions league spot; now I'm just supposed to be happy to be taking part?

Hughes encouraged us to set sights high, that is one of the reasons we were so successful when he came in. So why should that stop?

[Silencio]

Sometimes it isn't about how much you spent, but rather the quality of the squad. I actually think we still have a better team than both Sunderland and Fulham, as well as a couple of other sides above us. They may have spent more than us in recent seasons, but they were playing catch-up at the time. As I said, the money can't be used as an excuse for me at the moment, Allardyce did spend a decent amount in the summer (yes, raised by selling, but raised by selling a player who was barely involved last year) and so far the significant summer signings have yet to play a part. You can't bemoan lack of funds and then blow 6 million and 60-70k a week on what have so far been squad players (I still like the Kalinic signing, but I'm going on what he has actually done so far).

We may well have a good season now, but anything below 12th is a poor season really and anything below 15th and we're looking at a bad one. For all the doom and gloom when it comes to the quality of the side, and I am one of the more critical ones when it comes to that, we still have quite a few players who were integral parts of a side that finished 6th not that long ago, as well as a few signings since then who have played important roles for other equally, and sometimes more, successful clubs.

I'm sure that last paragraph will get a few jumping out of their seats, asking me how can I possibly set my expectations so high for a club that spends so little, is in such a small town and should just be pleased to be where it is? My answer: because recent history has shown me that it is possible and that is what I've come to expect. A couple of seasons ago we were a "top ten" side, a possibility for top 6, even one of the very dark horses for a champions league spot; now I'm just supposed to be happy to be taking part?

Hughes encouraged us to set sights high, that is one of the reasons we were so successful when he came in. So why should that stop?

I would be happy with 15 and delighted with 12. I would dispute that we have a better team than Sunderland. If you look down the centre of their team it includes Gordon, Turner, Cana, Cattermole, Jones and Bent. All players that we would take in a flash. They will be spending more in January too.

When we were a top ten side Hughes had more backing from the board and the competition was not so great. We were top 6 three years ago now. A very long time in football and since then we have seen the board withdraw funding from the club, sell our best players and appoint Paul Ince. Allardyce inherited an old squad that was past it's best and he kept us up. We are doing ok but of course there could be improvements. His PR skills could certainly improve.

If you look at who Allardyce is targeting it is encouraging, we have to hope the board will back him in getting those players in. I think we could raise our expectations of him if he could bring two out of Di Santo, Elm and the Bosnian in....

[Parsonblue]

recent history has shown me that it is possible and that is what I've come to expect. A couple of seasons ago we were a "top ten" side, a possibility for top 6, even one of the very dark horses for a champions league spot; now I'm just supposed to be happy to be taking part?

Hughes encouraged us to set sights high, that is one of the reasons we were so successful when he came in. So why should that stop?

Do you not see the changes that have taken place within the Premier League within the past couple of years? Do you not see the increased investment coming into clubs like Sunderland, Stoke City, Birmingham City etc.

In 1994-95 we were Champions of England - according to your philosophy that should have continued. It didn't because times change and clubs change. Our investment dwindled and other clubs increased their investment. Today we are a small town club with a very limited budget.

Ince was unable to cope and moaned about being unable to be competitive with other clubs in the transfer market. Hughes did a brilliant job but then got out when he realised he couldn't maintain the club's position on an increasingly restricted budget. If Hughes felt that he could have continued to achieve success at the Rovers he would still be here. He didn't. He knew that if he wanted to challenge the top four he had to find a club that had the financial clout to do so. Hence he looked at Newcastle and Chelsea before joining City. Staying at Ewood was never an option.

If the manager who achieved this success for the Rovers didn't think it was sustainable why, with all due respect, do you think it is possible?

[thenodrog]

Today we are a small town club with a very limited budget.

In fairness we have a superb budget. An income that just a few years ago we would never have dared dream of. An income that the vast majority of professional club in Europe would die for....

It's just that approx 70% of Eng Premier Clubs have a better one.

Maybe if the Glasgow giants come here we should apply to play in the Bundesleague or Seria A.

[Nafe_rovers]

there's more chance of the pope shagging bin laden on the penalty spot on sunday than sam deliverong top spot.

really? despite Bin laden being dead?

[47er]

I'm not anti-Allarydce, I'm just not drinking the kool-aid.

I still think at that moment in time there was little difference between Allardyce and Ince. The game against Portsmouth has the potential to be the turning point and our next few games will decide if the club really has progressed under Allardyce.

I judge him on a daily basis, I hope that everyone does; that is what we as fans are supposed to do.

I don't think you judged Ince on a daily basis. Nor should you hsve done. Its ludicrous. With our budget a manager needs time, it took Allardyce several years to build Bolton up to a team that always finished top 10 and challenged for higher.With Ince it just became obvious that the more time we gave him the deeper we were in the brown stuff. We all need to be patient and let him get on with it.

[broadsword]

your sickeningly bias opinion and pathetic twisting of reality to make all things pro Rovers.

It's a shame more fans can't be realistic and realise that we are no longer the team of the 90's and that every season we stay in the top flight is a success. We are improving slowly, we cant ask for more.

Why is it so-polarised on here? Is it too much to expect something to pin some hope on, rather than steering clear of relegation? Why does everyone have to be classified as a "supporter" (only seeing the positive side of everything rovers, never questioning the manager, always maintaining he's doing a good job) or a non-supporter (expecting us to top the league, sign players for multi-millions, etc etc).

What a pathetic dichotomy.

Some of us don't fall into either camp, we're just tired of the cynicism of Mr Allardyce, giving games up befpore they're played, ultra-cautious formations against weak teams when we're at home, refusing to play our natural goal-scorer.

You can support the team, but not like the manager, it is possible you know. Being a supporter isn't synonymous with being a thin-lipped automaton, endlessly repeating: "It is sufficient for my programming that we stay up every year, no matter how anodyne and depressing the play."

Isn't there a bit of a contradiction there, that you felt the need to say that we're improving slowly (but can't ask for more), but you also think fans sghould be realistic (presumably meaning that we shouldn't expect any improvement in the current circumstances ie, that we should be happy to survive.

[T4E]

really? despite Bin laden being dead?

You under-estimate the perverse nature of the Catholic church my friend.

[Hughesy]

No you're turning into a rather annoying Hughesy mk2 with your sickeningly bias opinion and pathetic twisting of reality to make all things pro Rovers.

Hughesy one of the few who consistently talks sense? Really?

I'm sure you are fully aware of the kind of posts I make and the opinions contained within them?

Hughesy and Mellison are imbalanced towards completely being completely untrue in what they post most the time.

Awwww thanks shillito - so kind of you.....

Im just a glass half full, rather than glass half empty. I dont let 1 bad result cloud my judgement, I live & breath Blackburn Rovers, not a crime is it?!

[Eddie]

Do you not see the changes that have taken place within the Premier League within the past couple of years? Do you not see the increased investment coming into clubs like Sunderland, Stoke City, Birmingham City etc.

In 1994-95 we were Champions of England - according to your philosophy that should have continued. It didn't because times change and clubs change. Our investment dwindled and other clubs increased their investment. Today we are a small town club with a very limited budget.

Ince was unable to cope and moaned about being unable to be competitive with other clubs in the transfer market. Hughes did a brilliant job but then got out when he realised he couldn't maintain the club's position on an increasingly restricted budget. If Hughes felt that he could have continued to achieve success at the Rovers he would still be here. He didn't. He knew that if he wanted to challenge the top four he had to find a club that had the financial clout to do so. Hence he looked at Newcastle and Chelsea before joining City. Staying at Ewood was never an option.

If the manager who achieved this success for the Rovers didn't think it was sustainable why, with all due respect, do you think it is possible?

To your first point, no. You're going back 14/15 years there to a totally different squad and situation. I think it should have continued for longer than it did, but we messed up and didn't bother to try and improve and change things and so went backwards (obviously a bit more complicated, but that was at the heart of things).

I think Hughes realised that he had done as much with us as he possibly could and that his reputation would never be better. That isn't to say that we couldn't continue to be a top 10 side, but we realistically can't be better than that. In other words, once you have shown that you are a good manager and you haven't had the rub of the green in one or two seasons where you could have done something special (a couple of cup semis, including the chance for a shot at the first FA Cup at the new wembley, and also a season where we were in the hunt for 4th for a surprisingly long time) then why stick around at a club where you can only really damage your reputation?

Souness left for similar reasons. Things, like they were under Hughes, had started to go a bit sour and he saw an easier job with money at Newcastle. As was shown from the follow-up from Souness, just because he thought we couldn't be a top 6 side every season and win another cup (which I presume he can't of as he jumped ship for a non-top four side) that just because the manager feels that way doesn't mean a new manager and a new approach can't lead to continued success.

Since we were promoted back to the premier league we've achieved a top half finish often enough that it is a very realistic ambition. The fact that it has occurred under two different managers, two quite different squads shows that it should be something that we continue to aim for.

We aren't an anomoly. Sunderland have done it. Ipswich. Charlton. Bolton. The list is really quite long. It IS possible. It IS sustainable.

To argue against that is to go against our recent history. To go against the examples in the premier league. It's to set the bar lower. It's saying, "yes, maybe, but realistically 15th is easier? Right?". What's the point? Why are we paying someone 40k a week to just be mediocre when we've seen that isn't what we need to be limited to?

[mellison24]

Awwww thanks shillito - so kind of you.....

Im just a glass half full, rather than glass half empty. I dont let 1 bad result cloud my judgement, I live & breath Blackburn Rovers, not a crime is it?!

My thoughts precisely Hughesy.

Shillito - why do say that I 'twist' things? It is MY outlook on what we both see, and nothing more. If having a glass half-full and supporting my club regardless of the situation IS a crime then so be it. I don't care. If you look carefully (eyes can be useful at times), I HAVE criticised Allardyce to the extent that I feel he should be, which in MY opinion is not much. I feel he has, for the most part, done what is asked of him to the best of his ablility. There is no need to be so unpleasant just because we have a difference of opinion. And I think I DO take 'Hughesy mk II' as a compliment, because it's a demonstration of how much I love the club.

[Parsonblue]

We aren't an anomoly. Sunderland have done it. Ipswich. Charlton. Bolton. The list is really quite long. It IS possible. It IS sustainable.

To argue against that is to go against our recent history. To go against the examples in the premier league. It's to set the bar lower. It's saying, "yes, maybe, but realistically 15th is easier? Right?". What's the point? Why are we paying someone 40k a week to just be mediocre when we've seen that isn't what we need to be limited to?

Since we came up in 2000-01, Sunderland, Ipswich and Charlton have all been relegated. Clearly they couldn't sustain it. Sunderland now have a chance because they are having money pumped into the club. Bolton, like ourselves, are now finding it a struggle. I agree, it would be great to be a top ten club on a regular basis, but realistically, 15th to 13th is a good position for a club like the Rovers to be in. Certainly, we are in a far better position than Ipswich, Charlton, Norwich, Southampton, both the Sheffield clubs, W.B.A., Leeds United and Newcastle United. The list, as you say, goes on. All clubs with the potential for far greater resources than the Rovers and with greater catchmnent areas in terms of support. Sorry, but I don't buy into the idea that Premier League survival is mediocre. The clubs I've mentioned would happily switch places with the Rovers this season. Over the past 50 years I've seen mediocre at Ewood Park, and believe me, this isn't it.

[Eddie]

Head...Wall...Brick...

[mellison24]

Head...Wall...Brick...

Want some assisstance? (joking, before you get overly insulted like most seem to do)

[sparkspakespoke]

Since we came up in 2000-01, Sunderland, Ipswich and Charlton have all been relegated. Clearly they couldn't sustain it. Sunderland now have a chance because they are having money pumped into the club. Bolton, like ourselves, are now finding it a struggle. I agree, it would be great to be a top ten club on a regular basis, but realistically, 15th to 13th is a good position for a club like the Rovers to be in. Certainly, we are in a far better position than Ipswich, Charlton, Norwich, Southampton, both the Sheffield clubs, W.B.A., Leeds United and Newcastle United. The list, as you say, goes on. All clubs with the potential for far greater resources than the Rovers and with greater catchmnent areas in terms of support. Sorry, but I don't buy into the idea that Premier League survival is mediocre. The clubs I've mentioned would happily switch places with the Rovers this season. Over the past 50 years I've seen mediocre at Ewood Park, and believe me, this isn't it.

Spot on, I still dont get how some people find this so hard to understand.

[Exiled in Toronto]

Since we came up in 2000-01, Sunderland, Ipswich and Charlton have all been relegated. Clearly they couldn't sustain it. Sunderland now have a chance because they are having money pumped into the club. Bolton, like ourselves, are now finding it a struggle. I agree, it would be great to be a top ten club on a regular basis, but realistically, 15th to 13th is a good position for a club like the Rovers to be in. Certainly, we are in a far better position than Ipswich, Charlton, Norwich, Southampton, both the Sheffield clubs, W.B.A., Leeds United and Newcastle United. The list, as you say, goes on. All clubs with the potential for far greater resources than the Rovers and with greater catchmnent areas in terms of support. Sorry, but I don't buy into the idea that Premier League survival is mediocre. The clubs I've mentioned would happily switch places with the Rovers this season. Over the past 50 years I've seen mediocre at Ewood Park, and believe me, this isn't it.

Of all the clubs you mention, I'll wager that over the last 15 years we have had more money from Jack and then Sky than all bar Newcastle. We have also had 2 managers who, for the most part, spent it well. We have an infrastructure better than all again bar Newcastle. So it's not like we haven't had the means or the opportunity to be above all that lot.

But money isn't everything, otherwise Newcastle wouldn't be below us and Burnley above us. Stoke have a rich backer but how much difference has he really made? Are we expecting a team of galacticos to roll into Ewood when they come? How much did their squad cost compared to ours?

We all clearly have our own criteria for how happy we are watching Rovers. Personally, in my 44 years watching, not too many memories come from the position we finished in, other than promotions and near misses. It wasn't all bad in those days, I enjoyed watching Tony Field a lot more than I do Roberts; Sellars a lot more than MGP; Brotherston a lot more than Diouf. I also enjoyed us giving Liverpool - then European Champions - a good game at Anfield the year we went down to the 3rd under Pickering. I don not enjoy giving up, at whatever level.

If we carry on as we are so far this year, I don't think I'll be telling my future grandkids much about this part of our history, but maybe that's just me.

[mellison24]

I've only supported the club since I was 8. Admittedly a short time compared to most on here, seeing as I'm 18. I am of this view: Yes, it would be nice to be successful. But I think what people are missing is that Sam wants, first and foremost to protect the club from relegation, which is what he is doing!! This is what I think Sam's staregy is (and it was Hughes' also):

2009: Save club from relegation.

2010: Acheive at least mid-table (13th upwards), possibly even pushing for a european spot.

2011: Be pushing for a european place all season and maybe even acheiving it!

Perhaps a cup win along the way? The 'good football' would be nice too, but we haven't played 'GOOD' football since the Souness era, when we had young talent in Duff, Dunn and Jansen. And Sam has brought in YOUNGER players and exciting players!

How is this so hard to grasp? I'll happily admit that Sam is not immune from criticism (indeed some of his decisions are baffling, but then Hughes and ESPECIALLY Ince also had apparent brain lapses at times). But it is WORKING. We are 14th with a game in hand and plenty of winnable games coming up. The style will come AFTER the substance is established.

[S15]

My thoughts precisely Hughesy.

Shillito - why do say that I 'twist' things? It is MY outlook on what we both see, and nothing more. If having a glass half-full and supporting my club regardless of the situation IS a crime then so be it. I don't care. If you look carefully (eyes can be useful at times), I HAVE criticised Allardyce to the extent that I feel he should be, which in MY opinion is not much. I feel he has, for the most part, done what is asked of him to the best of his ablility. There is no need to be so unpleasant just because we have a difference of opinion. And I think I DO take 'Hughesy mk II' as a compliment, because it's a demonstration of how much I love the club.

I find a lot of Hughesy posts bordering on ridiculous, however I do believe he has a grasp of reality, he just allows his blue and white tinted shades get in the way of rationality/reality.

I find yours usually just ridiculous.

Just an opinion. Perhaps it's the extremes of the ultra pessimists which brings out the worst in the ultra optimistic/bias supporters.

[mellison24]

HOW are my opinions ridiculous? Surely it is reasonable to see things in a more positive light than some others may do? I don't think I'm overly optimistic at all. I detested Ince straight after the Liverpool game last season, I just couldn't see how it would turn round and I was glad he was sacked.. Now HOW is that overly optimistic?

I simply think Allardyce is the right man for the job at this moment in time. Yes, a lot of his decisions are baffling, but other times he is a genius. I'm not so pro-allardyce that I dont think he was a complete twoddle wit his 'expert' comments. I disliked him briefly after that, but he is what we need at the club. He will stabilise the club and then take us upwards. I don't see that as overly-optimistic at all. And I doubt those with an ounce of brain do either.

I also don't see why you target me and hughesy specifically, as there are many who seem to agree with us. And many who disagree with you. Of course there are people in the opposite view. It's called life. Get on with it.

[S15]

I'm as pro Allardyce as anyone around here. In fact I wouldn't like any other realistic alternative at this moment in time.

Your support of Allardyce has nothing to do with my view on your opinions.

[mellison24]

I'm as pro Allardyce as anyone around here. In fact I wouldn't like any other realistic alternative at this moment in time.

Your support of Allardyce has nothing to do with my view on your opinions.

What does then? All I can see is that you randomly decided to single me (and Hughesy) out for being optimistic?