[Archived] Spit The Diouf

[den]

That's a fair enough assessment IMO . How anyone can advocate discarding Judge on the back of one performance at a non league game in the FA cup is beyond belief . What the hell is the point of developing talent in the academy if one indifferent game - followed up by some stupid comments from people who never see a game unless it's on the box - can ruin it all ? In fact what's the point of an academy at all ? Let's just sign foreign "journeymen" and hope for the best .

I'd like to see him at the very least on the bench to provide cover for whoever is signed by Allardyce - and given him his chance from there .

Under no circumstances should we sign the lowlife Diouf . I simply don't want to put money into his pocket . Signing players like him who undermine what little football has still to offer the working man is something I could never support .

What rover6 could have said and didn't, BP, is that he was wrong all along and Treacy isn't good enough.

There a lot of people judging Judge [sorry], on a lot more than one game as well.

[rover6]

Ding ding round 1000342.

Den, I hate to drift OT but I have to retort to that. How can you say that I was wrong about promoting Treacy to get a chance?

I never claimed that he was going to perform miracles or mutate into the new Duff. I think that you will find that I argued that Treacy deserved "a chance" on reasonable meritocratic grounds, with the firsts because (a) Gamst so consistently pants ( no other real left wingers at the club © Treacy in good goalscoring form for reserves (d) Treacy in good form for Rep Ireland U21s.

So, he hasn't blossomed into a star - but he has at least given us some pace on the left flank that Allardyce may consider utilising. Further, with more games he could develop from his current passive self (but c'mon, has he been much worse than Gamst?). Failing that, we may be able to sell him on in the near future and benefit from the transfer premium of "Home Nations youngster with Prem experience."

So all in all, I would suggest that I was right to urge Ince to give Treacy a chance. As Blue Phil said, Rovers should reward any youngster who has the right attitude and reached a level of consistent excellence at reserve level real chances AHEAD of imported "expe-diocre" detritus like Berner, Mokoena, Henchoz, Bothroyd, Jeffers and the like. (Unlike Blue Phil, you will notice that my argument has no shades of racial undercurrents, because I include British expediocres in my polemic).

Going back to the Blyth game, my way of explaining my minority position on Judge's performance is to say that you guys were distracted by the overall bleakness of the game to notice it. (It was easy to miss in the quasi-horror show). He didn't dominate or truly excel but when he did have the ball he displayed an encouraging level of positivity, confidence and vision. Treacy might have had more shots but Judge was the one winger who looked like he knew what he was doing when he did get the ball.

So, say no to Diouf. (I see Sunderland want to keep him, so my hopes are up).

[JAL]

Okay, simple question, did anyone else think that, in difficult circumstances, Judge's Blyth performance was quite impressive?

(This is still relevant to the Diouf thread, I hope mods will agree, because El Hadji may be our right winger in the future.)

No ! Absolutely not, far, far, far from impressive. Watched Alan Judge many a time, youth team, reserves, NEC Breda briefly and now on Tv against some non leaguers.

Mentioned before Alan Judge will never be a regular premiership football as long as I have an hole in my backside. Hes too small, too slow, no tricks, no outstanding skills, no end product, but has plenty of endeavour and desire which should hopefully earn him a professional contract but hes certainly not at prem level not even championship level.

You need to raise the bar significantly from Judges level rover6, if your going to impress the Blackburn crowd.

Any young lad coming through HAS TO BE OF FUTURE INTERNATIONAL CLASS - thats the standard required to get into the first team, is it not.

[den]

Ding ding round 1000342.

Den, I hate to drift OT but I have to retort to that. How can you say that I was wrong about promoting Treacy to get a chance?

I never claimed that he was going to perform miracles or mutate into the new Duff. I think that you will find that I argued that Treacy deserved "a chance" on reasonable meritocratic grounds, with the firsts because (a) Gamst so consistently pants ( no other real left wingers at the club © Treacy in good goalscoring form for reserves (d) Treacy in good form for Rep Ireland U21s.

Yeah, I know!

All I will say is that the "meritocratic grounds" you used were wrong and as of now, have been proved so. Do you suggest that every academy or reserve player should be played in the first team and for how long? They could all have "meritocratic grounds" for inclusion according to your judging criteria.

Ince gave some of the youngsters a chance as you continually asked, but look where it got us. [or them].

And like JAL, I didn't see anything to suggest he's going to make a premier league player.

[rover6]

Okay, let's not besmirch this thread with this debate because it's going to get deleted anyway.

What I would say is that reserve goers, such as ParsonBlue, rate Judge highly, even more highly than Treacy, Olsson or Derbyshire were being rated. Until we sign a top notch right winger (Diouf does not count), I am all in favour of Allardyce using Judge because his debut showed to me that he has got guts and talent.

[JAL]

Okay, let's not besmirch this thread with this debate because it's going to get deleted anyway.

What I would say is that reserve goers, such as ParsonBlue, rate Judge highly, even more highly than Treacy, Olsson or Derbyshire were being rated. Until we sign a top notch right winger (Diouf does not count), I am all in favour of Allardyce using Judge because his debut showed to me that he has got guts and talent.

The reserve level rover6 is more of an organised 'kick about' thats why Hughes didnt bother with it and many managers dismiss it.

[CAPT KAYOS]

Mentioned before Alan Judge will never be a regular premiership football as long as I have an hole in my backside. Hes too small, too slow, no tricks, no outstanding skills, no end product, but has plenty of endeavour and desire which should hopefully earn him a professional contract but hes certainly not at prem level not even championship level.

Sure you been watching the same Judge JAL , as that is far from the Judge I have seen.

Small - give you that one (as I have posted previous) think this is the stigma attached to him which is wrong.

Too slow - you must be joking - may not be a Linford Christie but is certainly nifty (with the ball also) if not an outright sprinter is certainly not slow.

No outstanding skills - better crosser than Bentley was in my book and can actually beat a man on the wing and certainly attack minded.

No end product - mmm scoring goals from midfield I would consider some form of end product.

Add this to being a decent passer who can kick with both feet and the endeavour and enthusiasm he shows - certainly adds up to more than alot of players I have seen over the years considered 'good enough'

[JAL]

Sure you been watching the same Judge JAL , as that is far from the Judge I have seen.

Small - give you that one (as I have posted previous) think this is the stigma attached to him which is wrong.

Too slow - you must be joking - may not be a Linford Christie but is certainly nifty (with the ball also) if not an outright sprinter is certainly not slow.

No outstanding skills - better crosser than Bentley was in my book and can actually beat a man on the wing and certainly attack minded.

No end product - mmm scoring goals from midfield I would consider some form of end product.

Add this to being a decent passer who can kick with both feet and the endeavour and enthusiasm he shows - certainly adds up to more than alot of players I have seen over the years considered 'good enough'

Woah... hold on a minute KAYOS, Judge has speed your having a giraffe, better crosser than Bentley now you are taking the Micheal, scores goals when and aginst whom (i.e not the team but the actual players playing in that team) will any of us ever be lucky to see in these players again in the professional game.

The standard has to be higher, do you think Judge is an International player in waiting CAPTAIN KAYOS ?

[blue phil]

(Unlike Blue Phil, you will notice that my argument has no shades of racial undercurrents, because I include British expediocres in my polemic).

Could you please justify this moronic comment by showing exactly where these "racial undercurrents" are in my post on this subject ?

I stated that I would prefer homegrown players from the academy to be given their chance rather than foreign journeymen .

Is that the bit that has offended you ? If so then it's time you grew up a little ......

[broadsword]

"Meritocratoc grounds"

Are these to be found on country estates?

Or is it just the same as "on merit"?

Not that am I saying it's necessarily correct to handpick the most minimally concise verbiage. Nor is it, one could argue, expedient to predicate a prognosis of another fellow's rational facilities upon the vehicle of their conscious expression in the form of the written word.

To be of such a prejudicial persuasion might meet with the delectation of more rumbustious fellows, but it is perhaps a signal to a deficiency in moralistic fibral material. Ipso facto, the choice of someone's expression should be contextually assimilated in a sound analysis of what can be demonstrably seen to be impartial analysis, nay, "true fact", to the most neutral, undogmatic of individuals, free of bias and agenda. Anything else would clearly be calamitous and precipitous, not to say an outrageous conflguration of everything freedom-loving individuals who like to roam free through the woods unencumbered by clothing hold dearest to their fraternal, liberal bosoms.

Having said that, rover6 does talk a lot of ****.

[rover6]

Could you please justify this moronic comment by showing exactly where these "racial undercurrents" are in my post on this subject ?

I stated that I would prefer homegrown players from the academy to be given their chance rather than foreign journeymen .

Is that the bit that has offended you ? If so then it's time you grew up a little ......

Okay, what I meant was that your position does not account for the fact that the British/Irish journeymen can be as pointless as the foreigners. My problem with us signing Fowler was the same I had with Berner. You have a problem with foreign journeymen but do not mention the British species - but perhaps that was just an accidental omission.

I was being rather petty, I do apologise.

Bryan, I was thinking of the word meritocracy, which is why I wrote meritocratic. Sorry if I sounded pompous but "on merit" didn't fit the sentence because I was looking for an adjective. My new favourite word is sesquipedalian, by the way.

[BRFC1995]

from the couple of occasions i've seen judge, he's not even slightly impressed............and i'd take a hefty bet with anyone that he never cuts it as a proven premier league player, looks like a very poor mans alan mahon definitely no linford christie. Diouf or judge is a very one sided argument if we are looking to stay up and improve.

[rover6]

I don't get the Alan Mahon comparison - beyond the obviously irrelevant ones.

[thenodrog]

Woah... hold on a minute KAYOS, Judge has speed your having a giraffe, better crosser than Bentley now you are taking the Micheal, scores goals when and aginst whom (i.e not the team but the actual players playing in that team) will any of us ever be lucky to see in these players again in the professional game.

The standard has to be higher, do you think Judge is an International player in waiting CAPTAIN KAYOS ?

Just about sums it up correctly. I have seen nothing special other than enthusiasm.

[The Prof.]

No ! Absolutely not, far, far, far from impressive. Watched Alan Judge many a time, youth team, reserves, NEC Breda briefly and now on Tv against some non leaguers.

Mentioned before Alan Judge will never be a regular premiership football as long as I have an hole in my backside. Hes too small, too slow, no tricks, no outstanding skills, no end product, but has plenty of endeavour and desire which should hopefully earn him a professional contract but hes certainly not at prem level not even championship level.

You need to raise the bar significantly from Judges level rover6, if your going to impress the Blackburn crowd.

Any young lad coming through HAS TO BE OF FUTURE INTERNATIONAL CLASS - thats the standard required to get into the first team, is it not.

So why isn't he moved on?????

[DeadlyDirk]

No ! Absolutely not, far, far, far from impressive. Watched Alan Judge many a time, youth team, reserves, NEC Breda briefly and now on Tv against some non leaguers.

Mentioned before Alan Judge will never be a regular premiership football as long as I have an hole in my backside. Hes too small, too slow, no tricks, no outstanding skills, no end product, but has plenty of endeavour and desire which should hopefully earn him a professional contract but hes certainly not at prem level not even championship level.

You need to raise the bar significantly from Judges level rover6, if your going to impress the Blackburn crowd.

Any young lad coming through HAS TO BE OF FUTURE INTERNATIONAL CLASS - thats the standard required to get into the first team, is it not.

I wouldn't say that they have to be international class, look at Dunn, Warnock, Jansen, Roberts (Not good enough for England), going slightly further back to Sutton, Atkins, Sherwood among many many others who have either not played for their countries or have half a dozen caps between them. Have they not been good players for Rovers in the past?

You can't just throw everyone into the category of international class, anyway Judge in my eyes does have the potential to play for Ireland. Mokoena, Andrews, they are both international class, don't see any queue to sign those two?

[Stuart]

I wouldn't say that they have to be international class, look at Dunn, Warnock, Jansen, Roberts (Not good enough for England), going slightly further back to Sutton, Atkins, Sherwood among many many others who have either not played for their countries or have half a dozen caps between them. Have they not been good players for Rovers in the past?

You can't just throw everyone into the category of international class, anyway Judge in my eyes does have the potential to play for Ireland. Mokoena, Andrews, they are both international class, don't see any queue to sign those two?

Small point but Roberts isn't eligible for England.

[DeadlyDirk]

Small point but Roberts isn't eligible for England.

Pretty sure being born in London makes you eligible for England. That was my point, he plays for Grenada, because he wasn't good enough for England, not because he turned them down.

[JAL]

I wouldn't say that they have to be international class, look at Dunn, Warnock, Jansen, Roberts (Not good enough for England), going slightly further back to Sutton, Atkins, Sherwood among many many others who have either not played for their countries or have half a dozen caps between them. Have they not been good players for Rovers in the past?

You can't just throw everyone into the category of international class, anyway Judge in my eyes does have the potential to play for Ireland. Mokoena, Andrews, they are both international class, don't see any queue to sign those two?

The bar has been raised regarding playing standards in the premiership nowadays 'deadly kirk' for any youngster to survive in the premiership nowadays he has to be of International class if he isnt then there is only one way hes heading obviously people in the game may have a diferent opinion of who is International class or not.

Judge doesnt come anywhere near the players you mention above though I take your point especially on Sherwood.

Andrews and Mokoena makes the standard International players a complete joke such is their limited ability.

[DeadlyDirk]

The bar has been raised regarding playing standards in the premiership nowadays 'deadly kirk' for any youngster to survive in the premiership nowadays he has to be of International class if he isnt then there is only one way hes heading obviously people in the game may have a diferent opinion of who is International class or not.

Judge doesnt come anywhere near the players you mention above though I take your point especially on Sherwood.

Andrews and Mokoena makes the standard International players a complete joke such is their limited ability.

I don't get the 'Deadly Kirk' reference?

I agree that the standard is higher so it does defeat some of my argument but not quite to the extent your saying, my point regarding Dunn, Warnock still stands, you could add people like Scott Parker, Joey Barton among others into that argument that you don't nessicarily have to be the very best players to make it in the premiership, there is a still a place for hard working decent talent at least as a squad player.

I believe it's too early to be judging whether or not Judge can make it anyway.

Agreed about Mokoena and Andrews, but Andrews is Irish too, can Judge be as good as him? God help him if he can't!!

[philipl]

Well, not seen much of Judge and Treacy but I've seen enough to say that if Sam signs enough basic PL-calibre tundlers to mean I don't see either of them again this season, I will not complain.

[DeadlyDirk]

Well, not seen much of Judge and Treacy but I've seen enough to say that if Sam signs enough basic PL-calibre tundlers to mean I don't see either of them again this season, I will not complain.

Agreed I don't think either of them are ready this year, but in the future it's too early to tell in my opinion.

[JAL]

I don't get the 'Deadly Kirk' reference?

I agree that the standard is higher so it does defeat some of my argument but not quite to the extent your saying, my point regarding Dunn, Warnock still stands, you could add people like Scott Parker, Joey Barton among others into that argument that you don't nessicarily have to be the very best players to make it in the premiership, there is a still a place for hard working decent talent at least as a squad player.

I believe it's too early to be judging whether or not Judge can make it anyway.

Agreed about Mokoena and Andrews, but Andrews is Irish too, can Judge be as good as him? God help him if he can't!!

Aplogies for the DeadlyDirk error, all the players you mention above seem of a far higher level with far more attributes and capabiliites than Alan Judge.

Judge is probably fiitter than Dunny but thats another story.

[rover6]

Well, not seen much of Judge and Treacy but I've seen enough to say that if Sam signs enough basic PL-calibre tundlers to mean I don't see either of them again this season, I will not complain.

I'd say the same about Gamst, Emerton, Simpson, Mokoena, Vogel and Nelsen. However, because they're all experienced, not many are going to start writing them of and calling them to be summarily sent to the reserves.

I really don't get it...did no-one see the clipped pass into the box made by Judge (I'm sure it was Judge and if not, I'm going to sound stupid) which Derbyshire missed with a clear volley? No-one else on the pitch displayed more vision than that, as far as I can remember (which isn't high praise but still).

Further, remember when he charged at the left back and forced a corner? Showing a willingness to go at the full back which, again was lacking from the other players.

The opposition were abysmal - but there was promise in Judge's debut, I assure you. Potentially, I think that he can be our Leon Osman - in other words, a bright, versatile player who can develop into a useful, if not brilliant player - given a chance. Obviously, no real conclusions can be reached after one game, so I hope he does play more. We'll find out what Allardyce thinks in the next few games.

I have a horrible feeling, however, that Treacy's near misses against Blyth will have caught Allardyce's eye more and therefore he'll be on the bench for the next few games.

[47er]

I'd say the same about Gamst, Emerton, Simpson, Mokoena, Vogel and Nelsen. However, because they're all experienced, not many are going to start writing them of and calling them to be summarily sent to the reserves.

I really don't get it...did no-one see the clipped pass into the box made by Judge (I'm sure it was Judge and if not, I'm going to sound stupid) which Derbyshire missed with a clear volley? No-one else on the pitch displayed more vision than that, as far as I can remember (which isn't high praise but still).

Further, remember when he charged at the left back and forced a corner? Showing a willingness to go at the full back which, again was lacking from the other players.

The opposition were abysmal - but there was promise in Judge's debut, I assure you. Potentially, I think that he can be our Leon Osman - in other words, a bright, versatile player who can develop into a useful, if not brilliant player - given a chance. Obviously, no real conclusions can be reached after one game, so I hope he does play more. We'll find out what Allardyce thinks in the next few games.

I have a horrible feeling, however, that Treacy's near misses against Blyth will have caught Allardyce's eye more and therefore he'll be on the bench for the next few games.

It was Judge who provided that delightful pass for Derbyshire to miss horribly. At least this means he has potential if he gets stronger. However I can't see anything in Treacy to give me any optimism at all.