[Archived] Relegation Watch

[DE.]

But there you go again 'assumedly' & 'extent at this point' - ifs and buts

We can only go off 'this point' as that is fact and is exactly where we are - and no the table doesn't lie at the end of the season - nor does it lie at this point either - in other words we have simply not been good enough.

So taking this into account - and the questionable 'improved performances' we are still in the bottom 3 - now this is not being pessimistic (as I normally am where Rovers are concerned) more realistic of how poor we have been and to some extent still are -turning up for only 45 mins of a game is just one issue that must be addressed but has been a constant anomaly in our season that doesn't seem to be being rectified amongst other things.

Now put that into the equation ie a remaining constant - and continue as such would in the normal term of things leave us exactly where we are at the moment - in the bottom 3.

As we all know or hope for anyway , is that this doesn't happen and there will be all kinds of turns - but the way things have been going performance wise has not been encouraging

The ifs and buts may provide perspective - but they will for all teams -just some seem to be making more of a fight for it than we do hence why I feel there is all the negativity.

You're making a fairly big point over something that's not that complicated.

We're not 'definately' going down, nor are we going to need a miracle or anything of the sort to stay up. I know you didn't say that specifically, but other people have been, and it's bugging me. We just need to have a little more luck with injuries and the team to play as a unit to grind out results. There's no "questionable" about our improved performances, you only have to look at the results before Ince and after Ince to see there is an improvement, no matter how small. There haven't been enough wins, and I've fumed about it many times over January, but we have to let that go now. Those games are done, there are still games to be won.

People can be pessimistic all they want, whatever floats your boat, but there's enough reasons to be positive. You've said you don't know where there are 3 teams worse than us due to the current table - are you saying that if we win a match and jump above a couple of teams, there are suddenly, due to that one game alone, five teams worse than us, whereas the game before there wasn't? If we're using the table alone as an indicator then we're no better than Newcastle (who we beat twice)and no better than Stoke (3-0)? Despite our current position I think we're a better bet to stay up, and by the end of the season it'll probably show. Can't say for sure - it is if's and buts, however, if you're looking at the future it has to be. Should we focus solely on the past and not attempt to calculate anything going forward we'd already be relegated despite playing a game less than some teams above us.

If you disagree, fine, no problem. I'm going to stay optimistic regardless, though for what it's worth I can understand the pessimistic point of view as welll.

[den]

You only have to look at our fixtures and you start to wonder just where are the wins going to come from to pull us out of the brown stuff.?We have basically 'bumbled' along from one draw to the next... i.e. we let slip a two goal lead to Citeh while Stoke beat 'em with ten men.You have to question the commitment and passion of our players to get us out of this mess and personally I am worried with what I have witnessed...and it ruddy well hurts to say so.

I pray we somehow pull through but I'm afraid its going to be too close for comfort.

Half of the players want away next season anyway, so it isn't going to make too much of a difference to their future [as they see it]. Some of the others will be thinking that they will move on if we go down, some of the others probably know they're on their way out whatever, so it wont bother them either.

There wont be too much hurt from our "professionals" if we're relegated.

[gumboots]

Half of the players want away next season anyway, so it isn't going to make too much of a difference to their future [as they see it]. Some of the others probably know they're on their way out whatever, so it wont bother them either.

Relegation doesn't sit well on your cv though and you are far more likely to get interest from clubs if you are playing well. It must be in players interests to play well. And although some wanted away earlier is there concrete evidence that so many do now if we stay up?

[BRFC1995]

this feels like pre season at the minute, seems like ages since we played meaningful football.......need to be playing league football every wednesday and saturday when u r battling relegation.......i don't count the villa game or the upcoming united game as i expected/expect nothing.....gonna be the better part of a month between meaningful games i thought we could win.

[DE.]

Relegation doesn't sit well on your cv though and you are far more likely to get interest from clubs if you are playing well. It must be in players interests to play well. And although some wanted away earlier is there concrete evidence that so many do now if we stay up?

I would say the main 'wantaway' suspects have been Warnock and RSC. Benni Mac is happy now, and who else in the squad is attracting interest from anybody? Robbo, Nelsen and Samba aren't rated as highly as they once were, Ooijer will be here until the summer and will then likely leave, but we knew that already and I imagine he'll give his best whilst he's here. Fans may not notice, but most managers likely realise MGP isn't what we thought he was, and who out of Dunn, Grella, Andrews, Mokoena and Tugay is going to attract interest? Dunn may, if he was ever fit. Emerton is injured until next season, ditto Reid? Diouf we've only just bought. Roberts doesn't want to leave.

Half the squad becomes two players.

[thenodrog]

I had a dream the other night that we'd hung on for 0-0, and then in injury time when United were pressing for a winner - we cleared the ball upfield. Ferdinand slipped and Roberts was clean through, one-on-one with Van Der Saar. Luckily I woke up at this point to avoid the inevitable horror of Roberts tripping over the ball or scuffing it straight at the keeper.

Wow thats amazing. I had the same dream except in mine Roberts has just rounded Van Der Saar in injury time and faced a completely open goal with the ball at his feet............. and then I woke up. Silly really cos he'd never miss one of those would he when 3 points are at stake would he?

[dingles staying down 4ever]

Looks like Rovers season is going to be dependent on the tale of the two Robbo's, one keeps the ball out of the net, whilst the other puts it into the net.

Robbo, Robbo !

SAdly the one who keeps it out the net is the bloody forward...enough said

[CAPT KAYOS]

You're making a fairly big point over something that's not that complicated.

We're not 'definately' going down, nor are we going to need a miracle or anything of the sort to stay up. I know you didn't say that specifically, but other people have been, and it's bugging me. We just need to have a little more luck with injuries and the team to play as a unit to grind out results. There's no "questionable" about our improved performances, you only have to look at the results before Ince and after Ince to see there is an improvement, no matter how small. There haven't been enough wins, and I've fumed about it many times over January, but we have to let that go now. Those games are done, there are still games to be won.

People can be pessimistic all they want, whatever floats your boat, but there's enough reasons to be positive. You've said you don't know where there are 3 teams worse than us due to the current table - are you saying that if we win a match and jump above a couple of teams, there are suddenly, due to that one game alone, five teams worse than us, whereas the game before there wasn't? If we're using the table alone as an indicator then we're no better than Newcastle (who we beat twice)and no better than Stoke (3-0)? Despite our current position I think we're a better bet to stay up, and by the end of the season it'll probably show. Can't say for sure - it is if's and buts, however, if you're looking at the future it has to be. Should we focus solely on the past and not attempt to calculate anything going forward we'd already be relegated despite playing a game less than some teams above us.

If you disagree, fine, no problem. I'm going to stay optimistic regardless, though for what it's worth I can understand the pessimistic point of view as welll.

I'm not making a big point just rectifying 'your facts' as you say it, as all ifs and buts.

Rovers fans are reknown for being pessimistic - the realisation is that alot of what is happening has been seen before with dire consequences. As for results - we got more points under Ince be it from more games however, they where points on the board. Fair do's to Sam in that there does appear to be improvement in parts but we are still stumbling from one game to the next and its still not convincing and this is the mainstay concluded with the fact that despite this 'improvement' we are still in the relegation places

I don't think any teams are worse nor better than us in generalisation as I think anybody can beat anybody on their day and its only your view that there are 3 teams worse than us which will only be confirmed at the end of the season if you are correct - what I am saying is the table does not lie and is that and the points that actually count and there is nothing convincing in our performances enough to show we have the fight or determination to turn draws into victories. If we win a game a get out of the bottom 3 then we are in a better and stronger position than we are now but this is about exactly where we are now.

I think most fans want to stay optimistic and believe it or not despite want I have said , whether this is looney tune or not I don't think there is a better time to play UTD (why? ) as I have a funny feeling we are going to get something from the game (and I don't mean a good thumping). There are 14 games to play - 4 against the 'big /little 4' of which most Rovers fans would say we are unlikely to get anything from - recent history would suggest the same (despite my comment above) which would leave us with 10 games to achieve 6 wins or the equivalent to reach the 'magic 40pts' (which may still not be enough)

The question has to be where are those wins coming from ? and this is what people are getting worried at going of our performances of late - you can hope for luck with injuries etc but we need to start winning games.

[incecticide]

Read my previous posts and you'll see I've expressed the exact same sentiments in match preview threads. Doesn't mean that the ifs and buts are useless, they provide perspective... it's just a case of positive or negative perspective.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to read all your previous posts before I answer!

I appreciate that perspective is necessary, however we are talking about the threat of relegation and ifs and buts ARE useless, because at the moment they aren't being turned into positives. We've come through a relatively easy period of games where a lot of people were talking in ifs and buts, ie if we win this game, if this happens, if that happens... the fact is we came out of it with minimal points and stuck firmly in the drop zone.

There's only one perspective on that.

[DE.]

Rovers fans are reknown for being pessimistic - the realisation is that alot of what is happening has been seen before with dire consequences. As for results - we got more points under Ince be it from more games however, they where points on the board. Fair do's to Sam in that there does appear to be improvement in parts but we are still stumbling from one game to the next and its still not convincing and this is the mainstay concluded with the fact that despite this 'improvement' we are still in the relegation places

Just because Rovers fans are reknowned for pessimism doesn't make it right... it just makes it all the more annoying. I was there for the 1999 season when we went down, and I feel more confident of staying up with our current squad than the squad from '99. Kidd also isn't anywhere near Sam's league as far as management goes. Comparisons to the '99 compaign are understandable but the differences should also be pointed out.

I don't think any teams are worse nor better than us in generalisation as I think anybody can beat anybody on their day and its only your view that there are 3 teams worse than us which will only be confirmed at the end of the season if you are correct - what I am saying is the table does not lie and is that and the points that actually count and there is nothing convincing in our performances enough to show we have the fight or determination to turn draws into victories. If we win a game a get out of the bottom 3 then we are in a better and stronger position than we are now but this is about exactly where we are now.

We'll have to wait until the end of the season to see how many teams are or are not better than us, but judging purely by results we've managed to defeat Newcastle twice and beat Stoke comprehensively. This is a good sign and suggests we are better than they are. However, we've also lost to Portsmouth, got a last-gasp draw against WBA and been unable to defeat Boro in two outings... so I agree that on their day any team is this league can beat another one, particularly those in and around us. However, if not for Roberts we would have beaten Sunderland instead of drawn with them and similarly Boro should have been a win. I know I'm dealing with if's and buts here, but I think it is a positive that we could have won these games, even though we didn't. I'd feel much worse if I'd been a Boro fan coming out of the game at Ewood, because Boro produced NOTHING, whereas we at least produced something that could have won us the game had we been a little luckier. I think you're wrong when you suggest performances are an indicator we're going down, as a few of our draw performances have merited victory. We haven't managed to grab that victory, but we don't lose the games either, which is another bonus. Does a squad doomed for relegation fight back from 2-0 down and nearly go on to win the game? No, they capitulate further and end up losing 4 or 5-0. We are not out of this fight yet.

I think most fans want to stay optimistic and believe it or not despite want I have said , whether this is looney tune or not I don't think there is a better time to play UTD (why? ) as I have a funny feeling we are going to get something from the game (and I don't mean a good thumping). There are 14 games to play - 4 against the 'big /little 4' of which most Rovers fans would say we are unlikely to get anything from - recent history would suggest the same (despite my comment above) which would leave us with 10 games to achieve 6 wins or the equivalent to reach the 'magic 40pts' (which may still not be enough)

To be perfectly honest I think Utd will maul us, they're almost an unstoppable force at the moment... their team is superb. IF we were able to get a win against them, the boost would be massive, and quite possibly the turning point of our season. If we lose, however, it isn't the end of the world, unlike '99 when the 0-0 draw sealed our fate.

The question has to be where are those wins coming from ? and this is what people are getting worried at going of our performances of late - you can hope for luck with injuries etc but we need to start winning games.

I completely agree, and it's frustrating. But I've seen enough from the team to suggest we can snatch wins with a little more luck. We have the quality, and if Sam can provide the motivation we'll be okay. Let's have a look.

Manchester United (A) - in reality, a loss, though a win would be huge.

Hull(A) - this is definately winnable.

Everton(H) - a tough match against a good side, probably a loss, though we did beat them in Ince's first game in charge.

Fulham(A) - on an OK run but I saw nothing from them against a rampant Man United to suggest we couldn't nick a win here.

Arsenal(A) - loss.

West Ham(H) - difficult, but winnable.

So out of the next six games we have a potential 9 points that are attainable, and possibly more if we grab a couple of surprise draws/wins. Of course, we could go on to lose them all and seal our fate... but I'll live in hope for now!

[incecticide]

but judging purely by results we've managed to defeat Newcastle twice and beat Stoke comprehensively. This is a good sign and suggests we are better than they are. However, we've also lost to Portsmouth, got a last-gasp draw against WBA and been unable to defeat Boro in two outings... so I agree that on their day any team is this league can beat another one, particularly those in and around us.

You're contradicting your own argument - anybody can beat anybody, which shows that results are a poor indicator. All that matters is league position, that's not pessimistic, it's fact - 18th place takes you down.

West Ham(H) - difficult, but winnable.

We never beat West Ham - put it down as a defeat.

[bellamy11]

DE4life - league position is the ultimate indicator of which side is better. We are currently 18th, below some of these sides that we are supposedly better than (despite beating some of them, giving us a points 'headstart', as it were).

Consider this question: Man United beat (cheated) us twice in the 1994/95 season. Were they better than us?

[incecticide]

DE4life - league position is the ultimate indicator of which side is better. We are currently 18th, below some of these sides that we are supposedly better than (despite beating some of them, giving us a points 'headstart', as it were).

Consider this question: Man United beat (cheated) us twice in the 1994/95 season. Were they better than us?

Or the fact that we've beaten Everton this season...

Or any number of other examples.

To stay up this year we're going to need a turnaround in fortunes, performances and results. Not a drastic one, but to assume this will happen for no reason is just mindless optimism (and I am, believe it or not, an optimist). I would like to know what DE4life is basing his optimism on?

[Iceman]

We just got to beat the teams around us, to stay up. Sounds simple enough, but its hardly going to be easy. We can lose to Chelsea, Man U, Arsenal and Liverpool but ultimately it comes down to the rest of the games whether we stay up or go down.

[DE.]

Speechless.

[thenodrog]

Has anybody factored in the usual scenario where coming to the end of the season games v the mid-table teams are usually the easiest games to win.

[CAPT KAYOS]

Speechless.

I think some would call it 'Blind Faith' DE4.

IMO alot feel the writing is on the wall with no evidence to say that wall is going to get whitewashed to cover the writing. I actually felt more confident the last time we where relegated than I do now

I think its us 'stick in the muds seen it before' more than anything however I admire your optimism and as they say 'Keep the Faith' as that is what football is all about at the end of the day which you so obviously have abundance of ( I wish I could feel the same) however I am not one of the slit wrist brigade if we do take the drop as there is much about the P/L that I would not miss.

[CAPT KAYOS]

Has anybody factored in the usual scenario where coming to the end of the season games v the mid-table teams are usually the easiest games to win.

Serious question TND but which teams you classing as mid table as at this moment in time?

In my book that would only be Everton who we have yet to play - bar the obvious above them the rest are still on a knife edge which makes it even more difficult for that very reason IMO.

[DE.]

I think some would call it 'Blind Faith' DE4.

IMO alot feel the writing is on the wall with no evidence to say that wall is going to get whitewashed to cover the writing. I actually felt more confident the last time we where relegated than I do now

I think its us 'stick in the muds seen it before' more than anything however I admire your optimism and as they say 'Keep the Faith' as that is what football is all about at the end of the day which you so obviously have abundance of ( I wish I could feel the same) however I am not one of the slit wrist brigade if we do take the drop as there is much about the P/L that I would not miss.

I'm stunned at the negativity...

It's kind of sad that most of our support on here seem to be willing us to go down. People pick out parts of my posts that they believe to be 'contradictions' or 'unfounded speculation', then handily ignore any and all of the positive points raised. it was bad under Ince, but it's getting better under Sam. It seems some people resent that, and would rather Ince stayed in charge so that we could continue our slide into oblivion.

I've been the first person to shoot down mates who tell me I shouldn't be frustrated as we're on an unbeaten run ("an unbeaten run that leaves us in 18th place?"). However, I've seen enough encouraging signs to suggest we've got a chance, signs that people are happy to ignore. A much improved defence, a strikeforce that has shown they can score goals. Okay, midfield is a problem, but all it takes is for MGP to remember the skill he once possessed or Dunn/Grella to keep fit for a decent period and we take another step forward. I wouldn't call such hope 'blind faith' as we've at least seen Dunn/Grella can work as a partnership.

But hey, how dare I be optimistic. Apologies to the pessimists, i'll let you return to your griping and moaning. Even if we do stay up, you'll only start moaning about how we have no chance of staying up next year.

[bellamy11]

This isn't about optimists vs pessimists. For the record, I think we'll avoid relegation too.

I just don't see how you can sit there and call us better than sides that are above us just because we've beaten them. The league table does not lie, and so far this season we deserve to be relegated because we have been one of the three worst teams. If we can pull off a run to get us out then fantastic - as I say, I think we will.

You've not answered my question about 94/95. Did results against United prove that they were the better team, or did the league position prove that we were the better team? This is fundamentally the difference here - people are (quite rightly IMO) pointing out that we can't call ourselves "better" than clubs who are currently above us after two thirds of the season.

[ABBEY]

think it is 50/50.Cant say if we will or if we wont ....PAUL INCE HAS A LOT TO ANSWER FOR !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[CAPT KAYOS]

then handily ignore any and all of the positive points raised.

I don't think they are being ignored DE4 - people are just trying to see how you see them as positive given our position re us being better than other teams

[thenodrog]

Serious question TND but which teams you classing as mid table as at this moment in time?

In my book that would only be Everton who we have yet to play - bar the obvious above them the rest are still on a knife edge which makes it even more difficult for that very reason IMO.

Anyone above 30 points at the moment and out of the top 5/6will not feel the motivation that relegation threatened teams do.... hence City's capitulation at Pompey.

[DE.]

I just don't see how you can sit there and call us better than sides that are above us just because we've beaten them. The league table does not lie, and so far this season we deserve to be relegated because we have been one of the three worst teams. If we can pull off a run to get us out then fantastic - as I say, I think we will.

You've not answered my question about 94/95. Did results against United prove that they were the better team, or did the league position prove that we were the better team? This is fundamentally the difference here - people are (quite rightly IMO) pointing out that we can't call ourselves "better" than clubs who are currently above us after two thirds of the season.

I think if you put our squad against Stoke then we'd win more often than they did. Purely matching us against them, for example, I think we're better. Similar with Newcastle, WBA, etc. What I mean to say, and maybe this hasn't come across properly, is that we have, in my opinion, a squad of better quality than some of the teams around us. It doesn't mean we are a better overall unit or that we employ the correct tactics and so forth, but I think 11 for 11 we could hold our own against many of the teams around us... and we've shown this against Boro, Sunderland, Newcastle(twice), etc. Problem is sometimes we have not employed the correct tactics (INCE), had players make unbelievable mistakes (Roberts) or just lacked motivation/passion (Wigan 0-3). We've also failed to pick up any points against the big clubs and for much of Ince's tenure looked like the softest touch in the league. At one point, we were definately the easiest team to defeat in the league and around December time I saw nothing but relegation in our future.

However, we're not a soft touch anymore. We're resolute at the back, looking more dangerous up front and are becoming difficult to break down. Our current position has a lot to do with the destruction Ince brought down upon the club, and under Sam that damage is slowly being reversed. I see reasons to be optimistic because I think our players have the quality to get us out of the situation... should they decide their 30k+ per week paychecks justify such effort.

Also Re; Man United in 94/95... I'd say if you put us against them, time after time, they'd probably have won more often than we did. However, luck was against them and players such as Cole failed them in big games such as West Ham on the last day of the season.

[CAPT KAYOS]

think it is 50/50.Cant say if we will or if we wont ....PAUL INCE HAS A LOT TO ANSWER FOR !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So have some of the players and maybe the Board Abbey - it wasn't solely down to Ince even though some will feel it was.

What I saw away at Wigan was not professional players bar Emerton and Dunn (when he came on) which also applies to other games.

Regardless of the manager the performance by some players at times has been nothing short of scandolous and they should be embarrassed to call themselves professional.

Everybody has off days , but when its quite obvious players are not trying ...

Ince may not have been very good but its the board that need to answer for appointing him if blame is to be apportioned although circumstance has certainly played a part in all this.