[Archived] Clarkson V Brown

[dave birch]

I think a lot of you are forgetting, or at least ignoring, the role the Public service has in government. They are the ones that run most things. The party in power tell them the general direction and they offer advice etc for the government to take or ignore.

If you think about it, usually very little changes with a change of government. Much of any change is affected by external things, out of the control of any government.

About the only thing a new government does change is foreign policy, and that has little impact on the day to day lives of the inhabitants.

[Paul]

On that subject Jim, would you care to name one political intellectual giant the left has managed to produce over the past decade - in either Europe or the States?

The answer to that is none, and I post as a Labour voter, BUT I'd challenge you to name a politician from the right who fills the criteria you've applied. The sad fact is there are no political giants these days. Please don't wheel out Ken Clarke (the only Tory worth listening to) as he's been around for decades and your post specifically stated last decade.

[dave birch]

Paul, I got thinking about that in relation to Australian politicians over the time I've been here.

All the "intellectual giants" have been from the left side of politics.

You might not like them or their beliefs, but they all have great intellect, even the one without a degree.

They are Whitlam, Hawke, Keating. I discount Rudd as he's an ex diplomat.

On the Right, there is McMahon, Fraser, Howard, all of wealth, all of one interest, all believing they were "born to rule". The closest the "right" got to intellectual was John Hewson. He didn't last.

I should post some of Keatings "put downs", better than any comedy show.

Just google "Paul Keating" there's a couple of youtubes on him.

[jim mk2]

On that subject Jim, would you care to name one political intellectual giant the left has managed to produce over the past decade - in either Europe or the States?

None that have been in parliament in the past decade though going back only a little farther former Labour leader Michael Foot (who retired from politics in 1992) was certainly a great intellectual.

Foot was of course a dyed in the wool socialist and it is ironic that his hard left 1983 manifesto, which advocated part- nationalisation of the banks, thanks to the credit crunch has come into effect 25 years later !

On the right of British politics Enoch Powell was also a great intellectual, though like Foot, nutty as a fruitcake.

Looked at the Keating stuff and how these sort of insults below directed at fellow politicians can be viewed as the work of an "intellectual giant" beats me. Hardly Churchillian is it ?

"You stupid foul-mouthed grub."

"Shut up! Sit down and shut up, you pig!"

"You boxhead you wouldn't know. You are flat out counting past ten."

[thenodrog]

Looked at the Keating stuff and how these sort of insults below directed at fellow politicians can be viewed as the work of an "intellectual giant" beats me. Hardly Churchillian is it ?

"You stupid foul-mouthed grub."

"Shut up! Sit down and shut up, you pig!"

"You boxhead you wouldn't know. You are flat out counting past ten."

I think that easily qualifies him as an intellectual giant Jim ........

..... rem we are talking Oz.

[jim mk2]

I think that easily qualifies him as an intellectual giant Jim ........

..... rem we are talking Oz.

Very true.

Purely out of interest, but are the yanks employing the same tactics as the UK government?

And is the reaction of the "working man" the same over there?

The US govt is bailing out their economy to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars ... see any newspaper over the past 6 months ... and Joe Average in Main St USA is very angry with the banks, far more so than here.

[BiggusLaddus]

Tris,

A serious question.

What could Mr Brown and Mr Darling have done differently to prevent the destruction of our ecomony in the current worldwide recession?

Not sold off our gold reserves at the bottom of the market, not spent billions that we didn't have during the last boom, not deliberatley allowed the city to be unregulated as long as it continued bringing in the tax revenue, not fueled the house price bubble by taking housing costs out of inflation (so we'd feel richer). not borrowing so much money that we have the highest per capita national debt in europe (thats without considering all of those wonderful PFI schemes), not raiding tens of billions out of private pension funds.

This current worldwide recession that you mention, is that the reason why sterling has fallen through the floor compared to both the dollar and euro? Surely if this was truly a global issue, all major currencies would be devaluing at a similar rate?

Our recession was not caused by the sub-prime collapse in the US, or the credit crunch that followed. That was just the spark that our own barmy economy needed to set itself off.

And now The Great Leader is considering turning the printers on to pay off his debts, while we still have high inflation. Great idea Gordon, just ask Robert Mugabe how it worked out for him.

[stuwilky]

So our economy would be in recession regardless of the economies of the rest of the world?

[BiggusLaddus]

So our economy would be in recession regardless of the economies of the rest of the world?

Our economy needed a spark, any spark. ln this case the spark coming from overseas gave Gordon the easy get out (that he has not failed to mention at any opportunity) that it was a 'global issue'. If the credit crunch had not happened, the recession would have happened when the next spark came along. It was always going to happen, they always do after a boom. The trick is to plan and put money aside during the boom to help pay for it. What we did was the opposite of that.

[broadsword]

So our economy would be in recession regardless of the economies of the rest of the world?

We're not best placed to ride out a global problem, no. There's no money left in the pot, so now the tax receipts of future generations are being squandered.

Gordon Brown has lent a load of money to the banks which they've just bloody sat on (apart from paying bonuses to staff, but then the FSA has got in on that act as well).

UK Financial Regulation is a sick joke. They're now looking into changing the regulatory environment so that banks don't over-extend themselves, but it's way way way too late. The horse has long since bolted and is now in a French abbatoir.

The FSA was Gordon Brown's bright idea, the buck stops with him.

whe will you stop asking narky narky questions and just put your own point of view forward?

[jim mk2]

A serious question.

What could Mr Brown and Mr Darling have done differently to prevent the destruction of our ecomony in the current worldwide recession?

Not alot. The recession would have happened in time anyway. They always do after a boom. If you need a template for boom and bust look at the Tories' record in Britain from 1979 - 1997. Just one long sorry saga of economic mismanagement from beginning to end that destroyed British manufacturing and created a divided nation. You have been warned if/when the Tories ever regain power.

The current crisis is the culmination of the laissez-faire economics and unregulated cowboy capitalism started by Reagan and Thatcher in the 1980s. Thankfully that era is now over and the although capitalism is not dead, it will be a far more restrained and regulated capitalism that takes its place when the world economy recovers.

If you want a cuplrit for the current mess, look no farther than Hank Paulson, US Treasury secretary, who allowed Lehmann Brothers to go bust last September precipitating the banking crisis world wide.

The US, Britain, Ireland and Spain have been worst affected because they had the biggest property booms. And if you want a cuplrit for British obsession with property and house prices, look no farther than Thatcher who 25 years ago sold off council houses and encouraged everyone to own their own home. The silly old bat always regarded rising house prices as a good thing.

Interesting to note that the great exporting countries, Germany, Japan and China, are now suffering their biggest economic downturn since the second world war. The US and Britain are trying to manage their way out of the crisis : the reaction of the exporters so far has been to stick their head in the sand and do nothing.

[stuwilky]

whe will you stop asking narky narky questions and just put your own point of view forward?

I havnt asked a single narky question Bryan.

Im trying to find out what our learned members think of the situation at hand as many of them are quick enough to simply slag people off as it is easy to do. I thank those who expanded on earlier posts.

It is clear that our economy would be in recession regardless of the actions of the government. I also believe that it is the actions of individuals making the "crisis" worse. Fred Goodwin for example, one of the most guilty of the bankers now rewarded with a hefty pension pot and got to walk away from a sunken ship, sunk by his own poor decision making - no personal consequences whatsoever.

Oh and yes, the FSA is a toothless monster.

[RibbleValleyRover]

It is clear that our economy would be in recession regardless of the actions of the government.

You can’t put the blame of our economic woes solely on the problems in other countries economies. Whilst it is a contributing factor the mess we are in is largely down to our government spending beyond on its means and relying on a booming economy to keep paying for it.

It was obvious that the economy was eventually going to have a downturn even though Brown himself came out numerous times claiming to be the messiah that ended ‘Boom and Bust’.

If Brown was competent he would have set money aside when the economy was booming for a rainy day. This is why we aren’t best placed to ride out/see out this downturn, recession or depression, whatever you want to call it.

[jim mk2]

It is clear that our economy would be in recession regardless of the actions of the government. I also believe that it is the actions of individuals making the "crisis" worse. Fred Goodwin for example, one of the most guilty of the bankers now rewarded with a hefty pension pot and got to walk away from a sunken ship, sunk by his own poor decision making - no personal consequences whatsoever.

Oh and yes, the FSA is a toothless monster.

Quite right. RBS chief exec "Fred the Shred", as he was known because of his fondness for making workers redundant while lining his own pocket with ever increasing salary, bonuses and share options, was probably the worst example of the greed, hubris, arrogance and downright stupidity of the unfettered capitalism of the financial institutions that brought about this current economic crisis.

The FSA should be scrapped and replaced by a body with the power to clamp down on excesses in the City.

[stuwilky]

You can’t put the blame of our economic woes solely on the problems in other countries economies. Whilst it is a contributing factor the mess we are in is largely down to our government spending beyond on its means and relying on a booming economy to keep paying for it.

I havnt put blame solely anywhere.

I do however believe that the recession we are in would have happened no matter what decisions had been taken by this (and in fact previous) governments.

[RibbleValleyRover]

I do however believe that the recession we are in would have happened no matter what decisions had been taken by this (and in fact previous) governments.

Maybe, though highly debateable.

I think most people would agree that our ability to react and get through this as quick as possible has been seriously hampered by a government that has not managed the economy in a prudent way. There are plenty of countries in the world, suffering the same economic problems but they don’t have the level of budget deficit or debt that we have. As a result they can take more steps in order to combat the economic downturn without borrowing astronomical amounts or putting a financial burden on future generations.

[stuwilky]

Maybe, though highly debateable.

I think most people would agree that our ability to react and get through this as quick as possible has been seriously hampered by a government that has not managed the economy in a prudent way. There are plenty of countries in the world, suffering the same economic problems but they don’t have the level of budget deficit or debt that we have. As a result they can take more steps in order to combat the economic downturn without borrowing astronomical amounts or putting a financial burden on future generations.

So, are we doing exactly the same as those other governments (which ones are those incidentally), and therefore currently in exactly the same situation we would have been in anyway, just without a national debt of some excessive figure - or would any other government/country in the same situation be doing anything else?

[yoda]

Not alot. The recession would have happened in time anyway. They always do after a boom. If you need a template for boom and bust look at the Tories' record in Britain from 1979 - 1997. Just one long sorry saga of economic mismanagement from beginning to end that destroyed British manufacturing and created a divided nation. You have been warned if/when the Tories ever regain power.

The current crisis is the culmination of the laissez-faire economics and unregulated cowboy capitalism started by Reagan and Thatcher in the 1980s. Thankfully that era is now over and the although capitalism is not dead, it will be a far more restrained and regulated capitalism that takes its place when the world economy recovers.

If you want a cuplrit for the current mess, look no farther than Hank Paulson, US Treasury secretary, who allowed Lehmann Brothers to go bust last September precipitating the banking crisis world wide.

The US, Britain, Ireland and Spain have been worst affected because they had the biggest property booms. And if you want a cuplrit for British obsession with property and house prices, look no farther than Thatcher who 25 years ago sold off council houses and encouraged everyone to own their own home. The silly old bat always regarded rising house prices as a good thing.

Interesting to note that the great exporting countries, Germany, Japan and China, are now suffering their biggest economic downturn since the second world war. The US and Britain are trying to manage their way out of the crisis : the reaction of the exporters so far has been to stick their head in the sand and do nothing.

er! I thought the one eyed Jock Idiot had put an end to boom and bust

ps,

its' being reported on Chinese television yesterday and today that senior chinese officials are travelling to Europe, in particular UK, Germany and France in the coming months to make large purchases of infra structure items to help the economies of these countries, not bad for sticking their head in the sand!

[dave birch]

its' being reported on Chinese television yesterday and today that senior chinese officials are travelling to Europe, in particular UK, Germany and France in the coming months to make large purchases of infra structure items to help the economies of these countries, not bad for sticking their head in the sand!

This is very true. China is awash with foreign currency and is looking to spend it. They've already made bids for Iron ore companies in Australia and are looking at other companies.

It should also be noted that their economy is still growing, albeit at a slower rate than the past few years. Having said that, the slowdown was enough to throw millions out of work.

[thenodrog]

The current crisis is the culmination of the laissez-faire economics and unregulated cowboy capitalism started by Reagan and Thatcher in the 1980s. Thankfully that era is now over and the although capitalism is not dead, it will be a far more restrained and regulated capitalism that takes its place when the world economy recovers.

If you want a cuplrit for the current mess, look no farther than Hank Paulson, US Treasury secretary, who allowed Lehmann Brothers to go bust last September precipitating the banking crisis world wide.

Make your mind up.

[thenodrog]

er! I thought the one eyed Jock Idiot had put an end to boom and bust

ps,

its' being reported on Chinese television yesterday and today that senior chinese officials are travelling to Europe, in particular UK, Germany and France in the coming months to make large purchases of infra structure items to help the economies of these countries, not bad for sticking their head in the sand!

Won't that be an international equivalent of the Robbie Keane deal?

[dave birch]

I think that easily qualifies him as an intellectual giant Jim ........

..... rem we are talking Oz.

Theno, mock all you like, but don't judge him on a couple of minutes of youtube, as funny as they may be.

Keating was the Federal Treasurer that oversaw changes to the economy, introduced sweeping changes to the finance industry. These changes meant that the Australian economy withstood the Asian economic crunch (remember Japan still hasn't recovered from that, they call the 90's the "forgotten decade") and has held together fairly well in the current situation. At the moment our economy is still growing, just.

Additionally no major Australian bank has had significant problems.

I'd bet that, if you could turn back time, you'd take him like a shot. Took all the hard decisions, told it like it is (was), and won an unwinnable election.

[tony gale's mic]

I think Brown is at fault to a fair degree, but I very much doubt the Tories would have done things differently. As Jim said, it was Thatcher who started our countries obsession with home ownership off. Brown should have tried to reverse this, especially as part of a supposedly Labour government but instead let these Thatcherite policies escalate further.

However world economics do play a huge role in this. What goes up must come down, and we're falling furthest because our own economy was one of the strongest.

[dave birch]

TGM, not being an apologist for Thatcher, but how does home ownership cause a problem? Two aspects of home ownership: 1. It increases the local economy. 2. People didn't have to buy.

Additionally, If Britains economy was one of the strongest, it should have deflated slower than the weaker ones. Perhaps you mean that the finance sector in Britain was one of (if not the) strongest, and there was nothing else strong enough to counteract the blow that the finance sector got. Perhaps a case of having too many eggs in one basket?

[jim mk2]

I think Brown is at fault to a fair degree, but I very much doubt the Tories would have done things differently. As Jim said, it was Thatcher who started our countries obsession with home ownership off. Brown should have tried to reverse this, especially as part of a supposedly Labour government but instead let these Thatcherite policies escalate further.

However world economics do play a huge role in this. What goes up must come down, and we're falling furthest because our own economy was one of the strongest.

Brown cannot reverse the national psyche ....( Englishman's home is his castle etc ) but government can make home ownership less attractive through the tax system by making houses liable for capital gains tax. Unfortunately as long as people see houses as an "investment" rather than a place to live house price inflation could take off again at some point.

Hopefully Britain's economy will emerge from this recession more balanced. Britain is still the 6th biggest manufacturing nation in the world (even after Thatcher's butchering of the sector in the 1980s) and there are signs that government is looking to support it in future rather than the discredited financial services.