[Archived] Clarkson V Brown

[thenodrog]

Brown cannot reverse the national psyche ....( Englishman's home is his castle etc ) but government can make home ownership less attractive through the tax system by making houses liable for capital gains tax. Unfortunately as long as people see houses as an "investment" rather than a place to live house price inflation could take off again at some point.

Hopefully Britain's economy will emerge from this recession more balanced. Britain is still the 6th biggest manufacturing nation in the world (even after Thatcher's butchering of the sector in the 1980s) and there are signs that government is looking to support it in future rather than the discredited financial services.

Too late for that Jim . The financial services have gorged at the trough already. Interesting point though jim if you care to answer ... Two questions for you do you think Mrs Thatcher would have rolled over for our financial sector as Gordon Brown has?

As for house prices

1. the term 'an englishmens home is his castle was coined long before the Thatcher years.

2. Mrs Thatcherwas wrong imo when the old mortgage limit of 2.5x income + .5 your wife's golden rule was scrapped.

3. Finally do you disagree that house prices ultimately are based on supply and demand?

[gillibrand]

3. Finally do you disagree that house prices ultimately are based on supply and demand? And 4. In towns like Blackburn which area of the town you live

[broadsword]

Still blaming the Tories after 12 years of Labour mis-rule? Priceless.

[BuckyRover]

I actually heard a Labour minister the other day asking if we wanted to return to 3m unemployed under the Tories?

It should be pointed out to him that 3m is looking very likely again under Labour. Only this time we will have a lot more debt for future generations to pay off. The tories made the unpopular decisions that Labour has reaped the benefit from over the past 12 years.

Roll on the election.

[Anti-Dingle-Brigade]

Yeah but Bucky, the population of the country has grown by some way since then, hasn't it? So 3 million isn't an accurate proportion.

If you want a clearer summary, do a ratio of population:number unemployed.

[gillibrand]

One in seven workers are foreign, is this not a bit much with the present unemployment situation?

[BuckyRover]

More labour sleaze.

She doesn't like weed but certainly knows how to screw the taxpayer

ADB: It would have to be working age population, as recently we have moved to a more elderly populace, which shouldn't be considered as they are unable to work.

If you manage to find some reliable figures, I think that you see that the domestic working age population has not changed significantly over the past 12 years. (People are having less children than before and have been doing for a while, and there has also been a lot of migration.).

Whichever way you look at it, 3m unemployed is not a good figure.

[BiggusLaddus]

Whichever way you look at it, 3m unemployed is not a good figure.

Especially when you factor in whatever proportion of the ~2m people on incapacity benefit receive it fraudulently.

[thenodrog]

One in seven workers are foreign, is this not a bit much with the present unemployment situation?

Of course it is. There were even warnings in the press a few weeks ago that crops would rot in the fields this summer cos seasonal agricultural workers were going back to eastern europe! An absolutely ludicrous article given that there are 2m+ unemployed, foreign holidays becoming too expensive and students leaving university every year up to their necks in debt.

[JAL]

Still blaming the Tories after 12 years of Labour mis-rule? Priceless.

Has he not figured it out yet that they Tories and new Labour are both the same.

Especially when you factor in whatever proportion of the ~2m people on incapacity benefit receive it fraudulently.

How do you come to that conclusion when they have to pass several professional medical examinations before being accepted for incapacity benefit.

One in seven workers are foreign, is this not a bit much with the present unemployment situation?

Thats not a good statistic to be putting out when us Brits are losing their jobs, crime along with racial tensions will inevitably rise if the welfare state doesnt maintain the unemployed Brits to a reasonable standard.

Its going to be an interesting year.

[Sandiway Blue]

How do you come to that conclusion when they have to pass several professional medical examinations before being accepted for incapacity benefit.

B0ll0X !

Half the people on our road that are on incapacity benefits have NEVER had proper medicals,and have been claiming for years.

[JAL]

B0ll0X !

Half the people on our road that are on incapacity benefits have NEVER had proper medicals,and have been claiming for years.

Are you sure you know this for fact or are you assuming this?

If they didnt undergo any medicals could you give us the procedure that they actually undertook to acheive incapacity status.

[Sandiway Blue]

Are you sure you know this for fact or are you assuming this?

If they didnt undergo any medicals could you give us the procedure that they actually undertook to acheive incapacity status.

I know for a fact,most of them are my neighbours and one in particular is related (through marriage thankfully!).

[RibbleValleyRover]

Brown coming out with his usual spiel of saving the world again today, global solutions to global problems.

More like 'Crash Gordon' than Flash Gordon:

[JAL]

I know for a fact,most of them are my neighbours and one in particular is related (through marriage thankfully!).

Go on then enlighten us how did they manage it.

[leftfooter]

The answer to that is none, and I post as a Labour voter, BUT I'd challenge you to name a politician from the right who fills the criteria you've applied. The sad fact is there are no political giants these days. Please don't wheel out Ken Clarke (the only Tory worth listening to) as he's been around for decades and your post specifically stated last decade.

I wasn't actually reffering to MP's per se. I tend to avoid party politics. I suppose Gordon Brown has been unfortunate in some ways. Clearly he is far more intellectually gifted than Blair. Unfortunately for him and the country, he couldn't rise above petty feuds and inner party rivalries - to transcend party leadership for the status of statesman.

As for New Labour, wasn't Frank Field (MP for Birkenhead) heralded as the saviour of the welfare state and efficient soft socialist governance?... The brains and conscience beind New Labour? He turned out to be so clever, he didn't appear to understand his own theories. Peter Mandelsohn was seen as another inspiration, except he's an organiser, not a great intellect – too busy socialising and working out in the gym for his toy boys. Sadly, for me, New Labour's legacy will bring thoughts of the likes of Stephen Bywater and David Milliband rather than Beatrice Webb and Tony Crosland. Regressively infested by tedious civil servant/middle manager types or ex -polytechnic lecturers. Crushingly docile and cloyingly subservient. For the nadir of New Labour's utter inanity witness the fact that the debate on the fox hunting ban seemed to rouse the rabble more than the Iraq war!

To try and answer your question - off the top of my head aren't Michael Gove and William Hague two of the Shadow Cabinet's more intellectual types? Being a bit of a buffoon shouldn't necessarily disqualify them I presume.

Great intellect however does not necessarily correspond with great leadership. The last Government to produce an 'ism' was that of Thatcher's, which suggests that there was at least some tangible ideology behind it. Keith Joseph might have earned the intellectual plaudits in the Thatcher cabinet, but even he was a mere cipher. That Government (and Joseph) was inspired by non-Parliamentarians like Alfred Sherman and Alan Walters of the Centre for Policy Studies. Thatcher was no intellect. She did have an appreciation however of the futility of big government, social engineering, subsidies, trade union power and high taxation. Agree with it or not, Monetarism at least had some intellectual rigour behind it.. She had the ability almost by instinct to put in to practice what Sherman was articulating behind the scenes.

The intellectual left sadly has not challenged anyone other than Jimmk2 for years.

Whether one agrees with it or not, all the innovative philosophy comes from the intellectual right – on both sides of the Atlantic. Thinkers like of Robert Kagan (Americans are from Mars, Europeans from Venus), Samuel P. Huntington (The Clash of Civilizations), Pillip Bobbitt (Shield of Achilles) Natan Sharansky, Roger Scruton (The West and the Rest: Globalisation and the terrorist threat (2002)), Douglas Murray from Centre for Social Cohesion are prepared to challenge the left's sacred cows. They are the only ones willing to tackle UN Corruption , lack of EU accountability and the threat to individuality liberty from an encroaching state and to the West from Global Jihad.

Who are the voices we hear from the left that are atleast prepared to say what they really think? Ken Livingstone, George Galloway and the ageing 60's 'radicals' like Noam Chomsky and Tariq Ali who are still parroting the old mantra of class envy. As for the 'liberal' left it now champions the international retreat of Western values by alligning itself publicly with those that would drag Europe back in to the Dark Ages. The left is truly bereft.

Final word for Clarkson and Brown: 'in the country of the blind, the one-eyed man is king'.

Paul, I got thinking about that in relation to Australian politicians over the time I've been here.

All the "intellectual giants" have been from the left side of politics.

You might not like them or their beliefs, but they all have great intellect, even the one without a degree.

They are Whitlam, Hawke, Keating. I discount Rudd as he's an ex diplomat.

On the Right, there is McMahon, Fraser, Howard, all of wealth, all of one interest, all believing they were "born to rule". The closest the "right" got to intellectual was John Hewson. He didn't last.

I should post some of Keatings "put downs", better than any comedy show.

Just google "Paul Keating" there's a couple of youtubes on him.

Ah Keato; the self-styled 'Pavarotti of Politics'!

None that have been in parliament in the past decade though going back only a little farther former Labour leader Michael Foot (who retired from politics in 1992) was certainly a great intellectual.

Foot was of course a dyed in the wool socialist and it is ironic that his hard left 1983 manifesto, which advocated part- nationalisation of the banks, thanks to the credit crunch has come into effect 25 years later !

On the right of British politics Enoch Powell was also a great intellectual, though like Foot, nutty as a fruitcake.

Michael Foot was a decent and principled man. Sadly he was living in another era.Not many like him around.

Tony Benn and Enoch Powell are two of the most accomplished orators I was privileged enough to hear speaking live.

[Paul]

Go on then enlighten us how did they manage it.

My son is on Incapacity Benefit and will probably receive this, or it's equivalent, throughout his life. His prospects for gainful employment are zero. To receive the benefit I undertook, on his behalf, a 50 minute telephone interview, was then sent a hefty application form, which was pre-completed on the basis of the interview, to sign, obtained a longterm sick note from the family doctor and sent the whole lot off. The process was quick, efficient and the benefit began to be paid in a matter of weeks.

So to answer the question there are genuine recipients who do not undergo "several professional examniations." In my son's case his situation is documented and would not require the examinations, it would simply be a waste of time.

It's like all benefits there will be a large % who are genuinely entitled to the payments, a small % who are on the take and significant % who do not claim their entitlements for a variety of reasons. As I understand it one cannot receive continuing incapacity benefit without a written statement (longterm sicknote) from one's GP. If an individual is on the take the local GP may be as much to blame as the fraudster.

One observation I would make is many of the processes for benefits are extremely complex. Forms often need to be very carefully read and considered answers given to ensure one receives the correct benefis. I often find it a bit of mystery as to how people manage to commit these frauds as it's very simple to be turned down on the basis of one question incorrectly answered. In my son's case he has repeatedly been refused 24 hour attendance allowance because I answered one question too honestly some 15 years ago.

[Paul]

One in seven workers are foreign, is this not a bit much with the present unemployment situation?

Can you enlighten us on your source? I suspect it's a tabloid newspaper.

According to the Department of Work and Pensions total UK employment rose from 28.96m in 2005 to 29.53m in 2008. Over the same period foreign nationals working in the UK rose from 1.66m to 2.32 meaning the real percenatge, for 2008, is 7.8% of those employed. Your quoted figure of one in seven suggests the percentage is 14.25% and is wildly inaccurate.

Over the period 2005 - 2008, again from the DWP, UK nationals in work fell from 27.3m to 27.2m.

There are approximately 1.8m UK nationals working abroad in EU.

It hardly all adds up to a national scandal.

We will employ seasonal labour again this year, wouldn't want all those crops rotting in the fields, probably 32 people on £6.75 / hour. It's well known in the local area we are looking for staff and have doubled production for 2009. You should see the queue of people asking for work, stops the traffic some days. Truth is not a single person has contacted us looking for work in 2009 and we are concerned we may not be able to find enough seasonal staff.

[jim mk2]

Tony Benn and Enoch Powell are two of the most accomplished orators I was privileged enough to hear speaking live.

Tony Benn addressed a meeting I attended a few weeks ago. In his 80s now but still a wonderful speaker.

[bellamy11]

My son is on Incapacity Benefit and will probably receive this, or it's equivalent, throughout his life. His prospects for gainful employment are zero. To receive the benefit I undertook, on his behalf, a 50 minute telephone interview, was then sent a hefty application form, which was pre-completed on the basis of the interview, to sign, obtained a longterm sick note from the family doctor and sent the whole lot off. The process was quick, efficient and the benefit began to be paid in a matter of weeks.

So to answer the question there are genuine recipients who do not undergo "several professional examniations." In my son's case his situation is documented and would not require the examinations, it would simply be a waste of time.

It's like all benefits there will be a large % who are genuinely entitled to the payments, a small % who are on the take and significant % who do not claim their entitlements for a variety of reasons. As I understand it one cannot receive continuing incapacity benefit without a written statement (longterm sicknote) from one's GP. If an individual is on the take the local GP may be as much to blame as the fraudster.

One observation I would make is many of the processes for benefits are extremely complex. Forms often need to be very carefully read and considered answers given to ensure one receives the correct benefis. I often find it a bit of mystery as to how people manage to commit these frauds as it's very simple to be turned down on the basis of one question incorrectly answered. In my son's case he has repeatedly been refused 24 hour attendance allowance because I answered one question too honestly some 15 years ago.

I'd agree with this, JAL. I worked for the DWP for around a year and it is certainly possible to fraudulently receive IB. I also know of at least one person who was friends with a doctor who would sign a long-term sicknote for 'depression'.

[den]

I'd agree with this, JAL. I worked for the DWP for around a year and it is certainly possible to fraudulently receive IB. I also know of at least one person who was friends with a doctor who would sign a long-term sicknote for 'depression'.

You'll be focussing on the "friends with a doctor" bit there Bellamy, rather than the "depression"? Depression is often decried as an "excuse" [for want of a better word] for avoiding meaningful work, but is for many people, not all admittedly, very real.

I'm sure you was.

[bellamy11]

You'll be focussing on the "friends with a doctor" bit there Bellamy, rather than the "depression"? Depression is often decried as an "excuse" [for want of a better word] for avoiding meaningful work, but is for many people, not all admittedly, very real.

I'm sure you was.

Indeed I 'were'. My apologies if that was misinterpreted by anybody.

[den]

Indeed I 'were'. My apologies if that was misinterpreted by anybody.

I thought you `was`

[Sandiway Blue]

Go on then enlighten us how did they manage it.

Beats me !

The related one had heart surgery in his teens and is now in his 30`s.He has never worked in his entire life,yet managed to spend half of last summer digging up his front garden. .

He has never been for a medical to assess whether he is fit for work,how though,i don`t know .

[leftfooter]

"...As for New Labour, wasn't Frank Field (MP for Birkenhead) heralded as the saviour of the welfare state and efficient soft socialist governance?... The brains and conscience beind New Labour? He turned out to be so clever, he didn't appear to understand his own theories...."

Perhaps I did Frank Field a disservice. The subsequent comments are instructive:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/c...icle5768727.ece