[Archived] Blackburn Rovers Accounts 2008

[nicko]

Is there any news Nicko ?

I don't know of any new bidders out there...the last one was Nabeel Chowdrey, Brad's pal.

I seem to recall at the time when he wanted to buy that Rovers said/leaked two things:

1 - The Trustees were lobbing in £3 million again [which turned out to be a loan].

2 - Some American group were in discussions...never named...never came to anything.

At the start of the season the club line was that everything would be all right and they would muddle along.

Now one bad managerial appointment and some average signings later the books look a little sick.

[tony gale's mic]

Christ, the Ince thing still beggars belief the more and more you think about it.

[CAPT KAYOS]

To be fair this bit isn't true...there are several reasons why we may well struggle to come back up. There's several clubs in the Championship who would have bigger fanbases and/or more spending power than us. Also the quality of players we've been producing from the academy has been exceptionally poor, IMO if we hadn't produced Duff and Dunn last time we'd still be down there now.

You mean the likes of Charlton, Southampton, Sheff Weds, Notts Forest, Derby etc - not exactly good examples - and I wouldn't say Bunleh and Nob end are doing all that bad. And besides they have always had a bigger fanbase than us anyway (referring to the first clubs and not our near neighbours)

Not quite sure I follow that reasoning in the Championship - a good manager can do miracles as well as players that necessarily would not be given the opportunity to progress /excel in the P/L

As I said it would all be hypothetical , the only worry would be if they decide to follow the route of making it a P/L 2 that keeps cropping up.

I agree on the academy bit though - however in the accounts JW does mention the fact of they are concentrating on young blood in the 18-21 age bracket - something I mentioned a few years back that I thought the club should be doing or needed to do rather than taking them at an early age.

[Duff's Minder]

You have raised a good point about wages. Also the time to speak out about this is now during a credit crunch. Is it gordon Taylor (ex- rovers I believe) who runs the players union or whatever it is. He is the one that should be contacted as he speaks up for the players. But in my view unless wages for footballers are not cut drastically then football clubs will become scarce. Is there any diference in the wages for players and the bonuses being paid to these people running our banks?

As the first Union official to earn over £1m a year I'm not sure Gordon Taylor is the man to talk to about a salary cap. The more I think about it the more I think it makes sense though. Maybe not a salary cap but clubs should be forced to try and break even. This still means Rovers are going to have a tough time of it but at least we won't all risk sending historic clubs to the wall whilst chasing a mid-table Premier League place. £5m for Jimmy Bullard, FFS...

[jim mk2]

Quick question Jim -why are you ( or anybody else) sickened by the prospect of relegation?

If it happens so be it , que sera , que sera etc

We have been down before - no reason why we couldn't come back up

Because if Rovers go down we won't come back. Trust me.

[Tony Diamond Inc]

Because if Rovers go down we won't come back. Trust me.

I'm with you on this one Capt.

I find it fascinating that people believe that if we go down, promotion will then be an impossibility- based on what?

Why did Hull gain promotion, and Reading, and Wigan...I could go on. It was simply down to having a good manager with a good team. There are no rules that say you can only go back up if you have a big fanbase, just ask Citeh, Wednesday etc.

I am not surprised to hear it from the likes of Jim, because anyone that does spout that rubbish is an eternal pessimist!

[Parsonblue]

You mean the likes of Charlton, Southampton, Sheff Weds, Notts Forest, Derby etc - not exactly good examples - and I wouldn't say Bunleh and Nob end are doing all that bad. And besides they have always had a bigger fanbase than us anyway (referring to the first clubs and not our near neighbours)

I think some of the clubs you mention above are excellent examples of what is likely to happen to the Rovers if we should be relegated. Like them, we have the upkeep of a ground that will be far too large for the gates we can expect in the Championship. Last time we were relegated the average home attendance dropped significantly. We also have the upkeep of the senior training centre plus a separate Academy site. Both employ large numbers of people to keep them going. These are expenses that both Burnley and Preston North End don't have.

The statement that John Williams made yesterday indicated that if we can finish midtable in the Premiership we can maintain our present position. If we don't we become a selling club and if we are relegated then it will be a firesale. With no young players coming through - remember when we were promoted last time we had David Dunn, Damien Duff, Martin Taylor and Damien Johnson from the youth set up and a young and promising Matt Jansen in attack. Today we are thin on the ground for genuine young talent like those players and once the big earners have left - and I suspect that will include the likes of Robinson, Nelsen, Samba, Warnock, McCarthy, Santa Cruz, Pedersen etc - we will be left with a very little.

The sale of major players in the summer will impact on season ticket sales and thus the club's finances will become more desperate than at present. I think that the likes of Charlton and Southampton are excellent examples of what awaits us if we should be relegated.

I suspect that relegation will result in a similar period in the backwater that followed our relegation in 1965-66. Then we were in the wilderness, so to speak, for a quarter of a century and would still be there but for the intervention of Jack Walker.

[den]

We also have to remember that if we do go down, obviously we will have to shed pretty much all of the current squad. That doesn't mean we can't rebuild quickly though, but it does mean that even if we can build a promotion team, we would automatically be favourites to go straight back down. Bigger favourites than if for example Derby came back up. The bigger clubs would no doubt be in a financially better position to give it a go, and improve their squad in an attempt to stay up, than we could.

Getting back up might be achievable - staying there might be impossible.

[Parsonblue]

I'm with you on this one Capt.

I find it fascinating that people believe that if we go down, promotion will then be an impossibility- based on what?

Why did Hull gain promotion, and Reading, and Wigan...I could go on. It was simply down to having a good manager with a good team. There are no rules that say you can only go back up if you have a big fanbase, just ask Citeh, Wednesday etc.

I am not surprised to hear it from the likes of Jim, because anyone that does spout that rubbish is an eternal pessimist!

With respect, that was exactly what we were told when we were relegated in 1965-66 - I bet Jim remembers it well - and look what happened. Relegated in May 1966 we told we would make an immediate return to the top flight. Return we did - in May 1992! In 1966 we had no training grounds to maintain, a ground that didn't need - or get - a great deal of maintaining and a stronger squad with a much better batch of young players coming through. Perhaps those of us who have supported the club since the early sixties and before, have witnessed this type of decline and know that a quick return is extremely unlikely should the worst happen this season.

[Sysagent]

Indeed , the Trustees are seeing it as just throwing bad after bad , especially in terms that it seems the players get paid even more for not winning anything going of those accounts.

Mmm I am not so sure that the board / trustees cannot be accused of doing this what with the appointment (and subsequent payout) of Ince and his backroom staff, if this wasn't a clear cut case of "throwing bad after bad" I don't know what is...

Surely they have to shoulder some of the blame about our current "plight" be it financial or Premier League status wise.

[jim mk2]

I find it fascinating that people believe that if we go down, promotion will then be an impossibility- based on what?

Based on experience and knowledge of Rovers over the past 60 years.

It's not like the last relegation: this time the club and the squad would have to be restructured. And there there is the question of the club's ownership still to be resolved.

If we go down I would expect us to follow the example of Forest, Leeds, Charlton, Southampton etc and be relegated again or struggle to survive in the championship.

But if we survive this season I think we'll be OK for the foreseeable future with a good manager in Allardyce in charge.

This season could shape the future of Rovers for the next 20 years.

Bloody Ince (and Williams).

[Eddie]

I'm slightly more optimistic than that, but I agree for the most part; it makes our lack of investment in January even more shocking.

[philipl]

Last January, Diarra was used as a stick to beat the club with. That was not realistic as Pompey (then) were always going to spend the Gaydamaks' (then) millions to over-bid us.

Which players moved this January Rovers should realistically have stepped in there and bought?

[CAPT KAYOS]

But if we survive this season I think we'll be OK for the foreseeable future with a good manager in Allardyce in charge.

This season could shape the future of Rovers for the next 20 years.

Isn't that what is being said though by Williams - but to do so we have to pay high wages without a fat wallet to dip into we cannot simply compete. So effectively paying more ( and accruing more debt) just to survive - what is the point?

Next 20 years agree on this but only if there are major rectifications within the P/L or we restructure on wage/salaries and manage to find an equilibrium of sorts.

[CAPT KAYOS]

The sale of major players in the summer will impact on season ticket sales and thus the club's finances will become more desperate than at present. I think that the likes of Charlton and Southampton are excellent examples of what awaits us if we should be relegated.

I suspect that relegation will result in a similar period in the backwater that followed our relegation in 1965-66. Then we were in the wilderness, so to speak, for a quarter of a century and would still be there but for the intervention of Jack Walker.

I know what you are saying PB but I feel we are on a better standing position than we where last time and are much stronger and refuse to accept that we would be in a similar position to Southampton and Charlton and are far more in control than those clubs where.

Obviously we would have to downsize in all areas, but as we all know it would be the wages that would be the stumbling block for us more than anything, however we would have no need to be paying to that extreme if we do get relegated.

Yes there are still players that atrract 'high' salaries but that doesn't mean that those players are required - as mentioned there are decent and young players about that are not given time or chance in the P/L to express or develop.

I am positive there is enough about the Rovers to attract a decent player or 3 in the Championship should it happen without having to implode with a heavy wage baggage.

Edit - also not sure if you would agree but feel some of the youngsters we have at the moment could make a cut of it at that level.

[MCMC1875]

We're not down yet. For those moaning about Rovers' plight, what about the 72 clubs below? I bet they'd all like a go in the 'promised land' of the Premier League. As for Blackburn being an 'impoverished town' according to JW, wasn't it always so?

[Duff's Minder]

Any Rovers fan over 25 who stresses too much about relegation has a bad memory. For most of my first 10 years as a Rovers fan we relied on 35 year old cast offs from the big North West clubs and I celebrated a draw against Liverpool as if it was the Champions League final.

Blackburn Rovers are a historic over-acheiving town club who are probably the 20 or even 30 something best supported / financed club in the country. Every year we spend in the Premier League is an achievement, FA Cup semi-finals and top 8 finishes are astonishing but eventually, sooner or later, we will end up in the second or third tier.

Complain about the trust if they sell us to a consortium of over-leveraged american 'businessmen'. Complain about the trust if they go to the bank and borrow £30m against the ground to finance buying 5 mediocre players. By all means complain about the trust if they start creaming off millions of profit from the club. But don't complain if they keep us solvent even if that means glamour games against Notts Forest instead of glamour games against Hull.

[Boz]

A quick bit of information from JW on the academy. The accounts stated that there was an average of 53 academy players and management in the year to 30 June 2008. JW stated that this would be reduced by approximately ten in 08/09. With a culling of peripheral academy players apparently not looking likely to make the grade. The grade being potential PL players.

[OscarRaven]

17 clubs would need to agree on any new wage structure for it to become effective. Not sure why this 'free market' still exsists - it should be in every clubs interest to stop acting like sieves and actually start retaining some of this TV cash and football clubs can start making a return for these so-called 'investors'.

I suspect the problem lies with the regulatory authorities, international bodies (UEFA/FIFA) and the fact that all 20 clubs have differing models and needs. In the end its probaly a good thing that the sky subscribers money is not retained as ultimatley we would end up with a few super rich clubs, no prospect of relegation and a predicatable boring game that needs mega-media-hype to sustain it, opps too late.

Sad really there is more competetion in the board room than on the pitch. In the meantime historic clubs go down the pan.

[Eddie]

Any Rovers fan over 25 who stresses too much about relegation has a bad memory. For most of my first 10 years as a Rovers fan we relied on 35 year old cast offs from the big North West clubs and I celebrated a draw against Liverpool as if it was the Champions League final.

Blackburn Rovers are a historic over-acheiving town club who are probably the 20 or even 30 something best supported / financed club in the country. Every year we spend in the Premier League is an achievement, FA Cup semi-finals and top 8 finishes are astonishing but eventually, sooner or later, we will end up in the second or third tier.

Complain about the trust if they sell us to a consortium of over-leveraged american 'businessmen'. Complain about the trust if they go to the bank and borrow £30m against the ground to finance buying 5 mediocre players. By all means complain about the trust if they start creaming off millions of profit from the club. But don't complain if they keep us solvent even if that means glamour games against Notts Forest instead of glamour games against Hull.

This is the view that makes me spit blood. The view that we should all give ourselves a pat on the back because the club has essentially come from nothing and has managed to "survive" in the premiership. We've been in the premiership for the majority of its existence. We've ridden the gravy train. We have a significant advantage over the vast majority of English clubs, regardless of location, fanbase or success in the early part of the second half of the 20th century. Yes, where the club stands now is impressive when compared to the 70's and 80's, but it is embarrassing when compared to the 90's, even to the immediate post-promotion seasons. There is no reason why this club shouldn't be able to survive and even prosper financially in this league and anyone who says otherwise needs to tell me why our guaranteed income is insufficient. What it requires is for the management, both club management and player management, to be more proactive and creative. This club seems to be run on a no-risk platform. We don't seem to put in any great effort to seek investment or exploit markets and branding, at the same time we take very little risk when it comes to building a team and signing players. If this club is relegated or goes under it won't be because we built a palace on quick-sand, but rather because we had all the foundations set and then decided to skip on the roof.

[Duff's Minder]

There is no reason why this club shouldn't be able to survive and even prosper financially in this league

Yes there is - we don't have enough fans turning up to games. We don't make enough money. There is no prospect of either of these things changing in the medium term.

What it requires is for the management, both club management and player management, to be more proactive and creative.

In other words all it takes is for our board, management and players to consistently and substantially outperform all the other boards, managers and players in the Premier League operating with more cash. It's nice when it happens but it's not our birthright and it won't last forever.

[Billinge End Blue]

All this foot-stamping about our current plight just encourages fickle support and excuses superficial fans to abandon the Rovers (either leave a game early or stop attending at Ewood Park altogether).

If we get relegated at the end of this season, it should be seen as part and parcel of league football not with the apocalyptic slant that many present.

Just take it on the chin, get on with it and carry on.

[gumboots]

This is the view that makes me spit blood. The view that we should all give ourselves a pat on the back because the club has essentially come from nothing and has managed to "survive" in the premiership. We've been in the premiership for the majority of its existence. We've ridden the gravy train. We have a significant advantage over the vast majority of English clubs, regardless of location, fanbase or success in the early part of the second half of the 20th century. Yes, where the club stands now is impressive when compared to the 70's and 80's, but it is embarrassing when compared to the 90's, even to the immediate post-promotion seasons. There is no reason why this club shouldn't be able to survive and even prosper financially in this league and anyone who says otherwise needs to tell me why our guaranteed income is insufficient. What it requires is for the management, both club management and player management, to be more proactive and creative. This club seems to be run on a no-risk platform. We don't seem to put in any great effort to seek investment or exploit markets and branding, at the same time we take very little risk when it comes to building a team and signing players. If this club is relegated or goes under it won't be because we built a palace on quick-sand, but rather because we had all the foundations set and then decided to skip on the roof.

This is not knocking you as a fan, but our club does a lot of work to try to raise our profile locally with lots of work going on in schools through the education dept and cheap tickets for school kids. You don't see it because you're not here to. Obviously that's your choice but you can't say the club is not creative enough when you do not see what they do. We as fans do not know how actively they seek investment or sponsorship etc. We are not seen often on tv so there is a limited appeal to external advertising etc. We pay, as has been said countless times , over the odds in wages to keep our better players happy and that alone is a major reason why we do not have enough money. We also have unusual demographics which mean that only a very small percentage of our local population has any real interest in football and those that profess any sort of interest are usually interested in the bigger clubs, meaning that things like shirt sales and so on are lower than many clubs. We don't take risks because we can't afford to take them. Any risk we do take has to be carefully managed so that if it doesn't pay off we are not too much further disadvantaged. Yes, there does come a time when you have to be a bit less cautious but in the midst of the deepest global recession ever, now is probably not the time.

[Eddie]

Yes there is - we don't have enough fans turning up to games. We don't make enough money. There is no prospect of either of these things changing in the medium term.

In other words all it takes is for our board, management and players to consistently and substantially outperform all the other boards, managers and players in the Premier League operating with more cash. It's nice when it happens but it's not our birthright and it won't last forever.

No, you're wrong, it just requires that we accept our situation and start running the club appropriately. We have to cut the wage bill, that means removing deadwood from the squad, slimming it down and relying on youth players to fill spots 20ish-35 in a squad, areas which are very rarely called upon. It requires us to set a realistic maximum wage for almost any player and stick to it unless we find an absolute top class player on our books (and by the I mean someone better than Bentley or Santa Cruz). It requires that we look to make a good profit from our investments and then re-invest fully in the squad (which would be easier to do if we weren't gathering debt through our wages). We should have sold Santa Cruz, we were right to sell Bentley, Duff, Dunn, etc. We have to look into bringing in young talent, which would increase the chances of turning a profit on transfer activity and also mean that the players coming in would demand lower wages. We need to sort out our academy so that we can actually expect to see at least one genuine premiership quality player in the next 5 (? is that so much to ask) years.

Maybe a lot is being done, it is quite possible, it isn't as if I am privy to any inside knowledge, but I have my ear rather firmly to the ground and don't hear anything. What we're doing now is treading water and crossing our fingers, it just isn't good enough.

[Boz]

Commercial income, £'000.

2008 = 8,986, 2007 = 10,457 (yet included a £3m very kind donation from our miserly, cash thieving owners, so like for like, equates to 7,457).

That's a 20% increase.

Is there a Championship Manager surreal game going on in this website that I am not aware of?