[Archived] Blackburn Rovers Accounts 2008

[den]

We have to look into bringing in young talent, which would increase the chances of turning a profit on transfer activity and also mean that the players coming in would demand lower wages. We need to sort out our academy so that we can actually expect to see at least one genuine premiership quality player in the next 5 (? is that so much to ask) years.

This is only a small point from your post Eddie, but Rovers are certainly trying in this area. It's easy to say, but how do they improve this area? I suggest the way they're moving now, in looking at kids of an older age [i've been saying on here for years that the academy system is flawed] might show some improvement. It's difficult though, because we will still be competing with the big clubs for any talent, whatever age.

[rover6]

I hope but do not expect Carlos to cut the mustard because Allardyce is especially keen on the Henrik Pedersen philosophy of football, i.e small, slow and skilful = abhorrent; slow, skilless, BIG = dreamboat.

Incidentally, how much did Villaneuva's agent fool Ince? Ince asked for Mauro Zarate II and the agent gave him Mauro Zarate Less Movement I.

[j166429]

This is only a small point from your post Eddie, but Rovers are certainly trying in this area. It's easy to say, but how do they improve this area? I suggest the way they're moving now, in looking at kids of an older age [i've been saying on here for years that the academy system is flawed] might show some improvement. It's difficult though, because we will still be competing with the big clubs for any talent, whatever age.

I agree. I think it's good idea to take a look at older kids (late developers etc). I also think it would be good for them to maybe take more of a look at secondary school games. I don't know to what level scouts go to these kind of matches however I do know that when I played football around the age of 16 to 18 for school, I played for Lancashire a couple of times. There were some pretty good players in those teams, but I can think of any that now play professionally. I know it doesn't follow that just because you represent your county that you are automatically good enough to play pro, but surely there most be some players worth looking at??

[jonv]

this place is a depressing stomping ground. and unfortunately it's the rovers fans that are more depressing than the figures. stop bickering over peoples opinion and respect them like you respect your own.

[AggyBlue]

Allardyce is especially keen on the Henrik Pedersen philosophy of football, i.e small, slow and skilful = abhorrent; slow, skilless, BIG = dreamboat.

Didn't know that, have you got a quote?

[Eddie]

This is only a small point from your post Eddie, but Rovers are certainly trying in this area. It's easy to say, but how do they improve this area? I suggest the way they're moving now, in looking at kids of an older age [i've been saying on here for years that the academy system is flawed] might show some improvement. It's difficult though, because we will still be competing with the big clubs for any talent, whatever age.

Of course, but every other club seems to be able to turn out one player capable of holding down a first team place every few years, we haven't done it since our "golden" generation.

I'm also talking about focusing on younger players when it comes to transfer targets. Looking abroad at bringing in young talent. We obviously can't do what Arsenal have done as it takes a serious amount of money to buy even young, raw talent, but what we should see is Arsenal as a model of a team that has found a way to operate that keeps it competing (maybe not so much this season...) at a level that it probably shouldn't be at. We have to try and rework that model and look to build teams.

To be honest with you, even if this did't work I'd be proud of the club for trying and prefer to see us go down swinging rather than just tweaking things and delaying what seems like the inevitable at the moment. It would also mean that, should the worst happen, we would be more suited to relegation, would find it easier to adjust to life in the championship and would be more likely to be promoted quickly.

We lack imagination. We're trying to do what everyone else does when it is plain to see that we're at a serious disadvantage. Where else would you see a company try and compete by just trying to be one of the crowd?

[Bazzanotsogreat]

Yes there is - we don't have enough fans turning up to games. We don't make enough money. There is no prospect of either of these things changing in the medium term.

I disagree, we do have money 45 million a season guranteed- rising to between 55-60 million IF we stop in the pemiership. What we need to do is revew our wage structure & only pay top wages for top starting XI players. Not 25-30K for theh likes of The Axe, Vogel, Roberts etc.

And before we get the usual posters stating that we need to pay such salaries to compete with other clubs on this league; Are we not in a global market where we can can compete with most sides in Europe barring perhaps 10 teams.

[Eddie]

You're right Bazza, although obviously that is countered slightly by the fact that any player coming to England knows that he is in for a pay rise. Still, there is enough talent out there that if we put in the effort there is no reason why we shouldn't be able to cut our wage expenditure without seeing any decrease in the quality of player in the squad.

[American]

In other words all it takes is for our board, management and players to consistently and substantially outperform all the other boards, managers and players in the Premier League operating with more cash. It's nice when it happens but it's not our birthright and it won't last forever.

I know it is a different sport, but read the book Moneyball by Michael Lewis. It talks about the Oakland A's baseball club and how the organisational philosophy is to find player attributes that are underrated/underpriced and build the team around players who, because they have those attributes, are underrated/underpriced.

The philosophy has been very successful for the club, considering that their payroll is usually in the bottom third of the league, yet they have been relatively successful (I believe they had the second best record over the first 5 years of the decade). One other thing they have done is when they get players who become too good for the budget, they let them go (far different system, but essentially they either trade them or allow them to leave with compensation of draft picks) to be replaced by cheaper/younger players.

[Eddie]

Yep, I have my soft spot for the A's and we really need to be running ourselves in a similar way. As you touched on, it's a different system and is more forgiving when it comes to errors and bad seasons as the threat of relegation isn't there; but I think it is also plain for everyone to see that we can't keep doing what we are, so things need to be looked at.

[OscarRaven]

And before we get the usual posters stating that we need to pay such salaries to compete with other clubs on this league; Are we not in a global market where we can can compete with most sides in Europe barring perhaps 10 teams.

I think its well estblished that the PL at the end of the season is quite reflective of the salary league. If we cut the wage bill you have to accept that means a closer ride to the trap door. If we don't pay the 'going rate' we will lose players on free's and new players will not sign long term deals.

We do operate in a global market and we pay at the market rate now and look how easy it is finding the players we need...? Proposing we cut our wage bill in isolation is one of he stupidest things I have read for a while... and there is not exactly a shortage of material on here.

[Bazzanotsogreat]

I think its well estblished that the PL at the end of the season is quite reflective of the salary league. If we cut the wage bill you have to accept that means a closer ride to the trap door. If we don't pay the 'going rate' we will lose players on free's and new players will not sign long term deals.

We do operate in a global market and we pay at the market rate now and look how easy it is finding the players we need...? Proposing we cut our wage bill in isolation is one of he stupidest things I have read for a while... and there is not exactly a shortage of material on here.

So you believe that the Axe, Vogel, Kishnisvili, Gally who probably earn 4-5 million a year represent ‘best value’? These players can be replaced with our own youngsters or unknown squad players from abroad for half the wages of the players mentioned above. Without having any detrimental affect on the quality or depth of the squad

Competitive or ‘market rate’ wages should be reserved for first choice XI players only IMO, not players who will play 10 games (tops) a season.

[American]

Yep, I have my soft spot for the A's and we really need to be running ourselves in a similar way. As you touched on, it's a different system and is more forgiving when it comes to errors and bad seasons as the threat of relegation isn't there; but I think it is also plain for everyone to see that we can't keep doing what we are, so things need to be looked at.

Even without relegation, I can't remember the last time the A's were in the bottom 3 of the league, much less the bottom of their division.

I think BTNSG has the right thought with using cheaper continental youngsters. You have the risk of players having to adapt to the style of play, but you have the reward of players like Nelsen and Samba* that others didn't want, but have turned out to be well worth the investment. I think we also need to consider scouting other areas, such as Africa and Asia and some of the smaller Euro leagues, where good youngsters can be picked up relatively cheaply.

I think our recent push towards picking up Irish youngsters has been a start, and hopefully at least one of them ends up breaking through. Wouldn't mind seeing us get the Egyptian youngster in the summer, as he's relatively cheap and worth the risk.

Edit: I'd also put Roque as an example of this, because if he was an Premier League player with the same hype, he'd have gone for a lot more than he did. Imagine what Janko would be priced at if he were playing for Boro and had even 2/3rds the scoring record he does in Austria. It doesn't always have to be players below a million, it just needs to be players we can get for cheaper than they are truly worth.

[Eddie]

Sure, but the A's can always rely on having draft picks, trading for draft picks, etc. They are in a system that guarantees a decent share of the talent coming into the league, we don't have that. What we need to do is be more active globally and exploit our position as one of the 20 premiership clubs and look to get a decent share of the global talent, seeing as it is unlikely that we will be able to gain a foothold within the northwest. We need to break the mold slightly and try and find a way to prosper, to truly wee with the willy we have. Sadly, I can't see anything serious being done about it.

[Duff's Minder]

Eddie, I don't necessarily disagree with the jist of what your saying. We need to be creative to compete all I'm saying is that we ned to be realistic and when people (not necessarily you) start talking about protests and wanting to get rid of the board they are being unrealistic. Our realistic position is as a championship side, when the board and management get us performing above that they are doing a great job when we eventually fall back down to a lower level then it doesn't mean they are incompetent.

there are a dozen clubs at least with more money than us and there are half a dozen more who are owned by short-termist morons who don't mind throwing the clubs future away. We shouldn't follow suit just to stay in the premier league. Unless I've missed something the PL hasn't been a fun place to be for a long, long time. If you get excited by finishing 7th then good luck to you.

[Eddie]

Eddie, I don't necessarily disagree with the jist of what your saying. We need to be creative to compete all I'm saying is that we ned to be realistic and when people (not necessarily you) start talking about protests and wanting to get rid of the board they are being unrealistic. Our realistic position is as a championship side, when the board and management get us performing above that they are doing a great job when we eventually fall back down to a lower level then it doesn't mean they are incompetent.

I'm not calling for the board's head, although I do think a change in owner is one way forward and is probably necessary. How long do you have to overachieve before it stops being considered overachieving? We've been in this division for several seasons now and without any serious financial backing have managed to survive and for the majority of those seasons haven't faced the threat of relegation. We are not the only club to have done that, either presently or in the past; it is just that we all buy into the myth that premiership survival, and even more so success, is dependent on financial power. We won't win the league with our current budget, but there is no reason why we have to be resigned to relegation, or even bottom half finishes.

[stuwilky]

we all buy into the myth that premiership ..... success, is dependent on financial power.

Myth?

[Eddie]

Yes, I don't think, and I can produce a good number of examples to back it up, that in order to be a top-half, or even top seven, side you need to be spending millions every season.

[neekoy]

Yes, I don't think, and I can produce a good number of examples to back it up, that in order to be a top-half, or even top seven, side you need to be spending millions every season.

I would like to see the numbers, give me the last ten years of PL football.

Those who have spent bugger all may have one or two good seasons but will then yo yo back and forth. Success can only be measured by top 6 finishes, that is League, Cups and European Competition.

[dingles staying down 4ever]

I'm not calling for the board's head, although I do think a change in owner is one way forward and is probably necessary. How long do you have to overachieve before it stops being considered overachieving? We've been in this division for several seasons now and without any serious financial backing have managed to survive and for the majority of those seasons haven't faced the threat of relegation. We are not the only club to have done that, either presently or in the past; it is just that we all buy into the myth that premiership survival, and even more so success, is dependent on financial power. We won't win the league with our current budget, but there is no reason why we have to be resigned to relegation, or even bottom half finishes.

Eddie, JW states in his chariman's report for the club to prospure in the premiership, it requires a new owner. The club finances rely on us finishing top half to come close to making a profit. One mistake, which effectively appointing a certain young English manager, has cost potentially millions - TV revenue [the only pick the top teams regularly], Match day income from lower crowds and position prize money so now what little transfer budget has gone. We are now in the ever decreasing circles syndrome, which will result in ultimate doom.

The only club who spends very little that prospures seems to be Everton, but they do have the big fan base to supplement their income. They manage to hold onto their good players as well.

As it is looking increasing unlikely that a new owner is to be found and unlike last relegation no young talent coming through, the only way for the club to break this cycle is simple, win as many games as possible and finish as high up the table as we can. I am sure the club will now have budgeted for worse case scenario, Sam has implied as much saying that the team are playing for people's jobs. This means that the prize money earned in every position gained between now and the end of the season is probably Sam's transfer budget for next season.

[stuwilky]

Yes, I don't think, and I can produce a good number of examples to back it up, that in order to be a top-half, or even top seven, side you need to be spending millions every season.

I guess it depends on your criteria of "success" doesnt it.

Its a sad state of affairs when that it deemed to be a top 7 finish - lets face it, 7th is mid table.

[thenodrog]

The only club who spends very little that prospures seems to be Everton, but they do have the big fan base to supplement their income. They manage to hold onto their good players as well.

Absolute bloody mystery to me how they do that and retain the services of a good manager too although I'm sure that there is a link between the two.

Rest assured if Moyes had gone in summer and they'd brought Paul Ince in they'd be in deep sh1t too.

[Bazzanotsogreat]

The only club who spends very little that prospures seems to be Everton, but they do have the big fan base to supplement their income. They manage to hold onto their good players as well.

Another myth that moyes happily goes along with. Everton are on average spending around 15-20 milion a season on new players, hardly peanuts?

[mattyboy6000]

In the years after his death they invested huge amounts on first getting us back up

no, they didn't. jack invested that money himself

[The Prof.]

no, they didn't. jack invested that money himself

Thats correct! We went up almost a year to the day after his death.

I'm just wondering how desperate we'd feel if we did get relegated. I think the Premiership has become stagnant with only one club - MU - and possibly Villa looking likely to be financially viable. The rest are all having money or squad problems. Most squads are bought in and aging - how many 30 somethings are there collecting huge salaries?

Arsenal - can't/won't spend and the football is declining rapidly

Liverpool - Basket case

Chelsea - Pensioners ruling an aging squad

Everton - good support but living in a dump. Scrapping round to get a cheapy forward.

WHU - Bust and managers agreed to leave in summer.

The standard of football has fallen and most teams play to nullify the opposition first.

I think I am fed up with the Premiership altogether. If we go down I hope we return to the two fast wingers/attacking full backs philosophy which made Rovers one of the most exciting teams to watch in the old 2nd division. I miss that. I don't want to get relegated but I won't miss the premiership.