[Archived] Geert Wilders

[Bazzanotsogreat]

While I think the fact that he's under threat isn't good at all, it was an incredibly stupid thing to say. Religious texts are open to interpretation and always have been. Both the Qu'ran and the Bible preach some very positive messages as the cornerstones of their faith, the same rules by which anyone should live by.

Can you please enlighten me as to what these positive messages in the Qur’an are? ( and BTW I am not stating that there aren’t any).

By making this catastrophic decisions of not to all allowing Wilders entry-The liberal left are playing into the far rights hands. It strengthens the feeling of bias towards Muslims; reiterated by the fact that several Hezbollah ‘politicians’ have been allowed entry to the UK. Men who believe in the extermination of the Jews. The government should of allowed Wilders to present his film ; and then to be critiqued by Muslim & Christian academics alike. Instead we will never know the outcome of such a meet; and thus plays straight into the far-rights hands.

What wilders does with his film, is that he illustrates a contemporary trait within certain Islamic states to twist the Qur’an to suit a radical Islamist agenda. Wahhabism from Saudi-Arabia is probably the most infamous example one could give ( and is also amongst the most followed Sunni sect in the UK).

[DP]

Funny how there's a lot of people trying to raise an argument with TG's mic when he also doesn't agree with the Government's decision!

It was a stupid decison though. Gives him unnecessary publicity, and now millions have watched his film on t'internet.

[Sandiway Blue]

Well this is what happens when we have a communist government in office .I personally think that he should have been allowed in the country to give his views.Given what bit in the media i have read,i don`t agree with him,but as we live in a country that USED to have freedom of speech,his visit shouldn`t have been a problem.After all we have radicals in this country that are quite free to rant and rave about `the evil west`without any action taken,even though they probably pose more of a threat than some nutty right-wing politician.

[leftfooter]

I quote:

"…How dreadful are the curses which Islam lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.

A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property‹either as a child, a wife, or a concubine must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men...

...Islam is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science -the science against which it had vainly struggled - the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome…"

Geert Wilders railing against Moslems in the Dutch Parliament? Salman Rushdie from his hide out in 1989? George Bush after 9/11?

Not quite. The author is Winston Churchill from River War published in 1899.

If he stated this today, he would likely be prosecuted.

In his clumsy and rather artless fashion, is Geert Wilders saying anything that is particularly so different?

For today's Jacquie Smiff and David "Bananaboy"Milliband read yesterday's Chamberlain and Lord Halifax.

[Blue n White Rover]

Let's turn the tables for a second shall we?

Say a Muslim Preacher who was also a member of the Parliament, came out and made a film on his Views about Christianity or his views on the Jews. Stating that all Chrisitians/Jews that live in Islamic Countries such as Turkey, Morroco Eygpt etc should be given incentives to move out, would you be against that? Would you want him anywhere near this country?? Is it just because he is basing his film on muslims and Islam that he should be allowed into this country?? For what reason should one indiviual be allowed into this country to publicise his views on Islam and Muslims, if a Muslim had done the same, he is deemed to be a terrorist, true??

[thenodrog]

After all we have radicals in this country that are quite free to rant and rave about `the evil west`without any action taken,even though they probably pose more of a threat than some nutty right-wing politician.

Must be deemed OK when it's hiding under the bedclothes of some backward looking religion.

Not quite. The author is Winston Churchill from River War published in 1899.

If he stated this today, he would likely be prosecuted.

The whip would be withdrawn and his political career would be over without a doubt.

[thenodrog]

For what reason should one indiviual be allowed into this country to publicise his views,

Where do you want me to start? How many examples of terrorism in this country and around the world do you need? Each black body bag containing whatever remains can be found and identified of a totally innocent victim constitutes a reason doesn't it?

[Drummer Boy]

Let him in to show himself for what he is and then let him go again

As a society, we are big enough to tolerate him and his intolerant like, regardless of what they are intolerant of, without actually giving him shed space in the fabric of our society - I feel our politicians have been cowardly in this instance although I don't care for his message nor his sweeping generalisation of a faith that has as many sub-groups and fanatics as any other

Islam has many common characteristics with other religions, including Christianity, but that does not stop people twisting religion for their own agenda of power & greed. As someone said earlier it is remarkable the level of evil brought about in the name of religion despite religion being little more than a code for people to live together with a consensus of what is right and wrong and an attempt to explain some very deep concepts without reference to speculative theories about big bangs.

I thought about the point made earlier about wars being caused by religion and wondered if wars are actually caused by the underlying forces of greed, power, sex, money and land - all of which have twisted religion to suit their particular perspective. Any thoughts anyone?

[gillibrand]

The problem is that open debate is not allowed on this kind of subject, and as usual when any debate takes place one side always shouts the other down and name calling then takes place, sound familiar?

[thenodrog]

Any thoughts anyone?

Be an idea to ban all religious instruction whatsoever whether in school or out until the age of 16 and replace it with some sort of life skills teaching. It would do away with the lifelong aggravation and strife caused by the wedge driving stupidity of secular education. I suppose that a certain amount would go underground but it's a start.

[leftfooter]

Let's turn the tables for a second shall we?

Say a Muslim Preacher who was also a member of the Parliament, came out and made a film on his Views about Christianity or his views on the Jews. Stating that all Chrisitians/Jews that live in Islamic Countries such as Turkey, Morroco Eygpt etc should be given incentives to move out, would you be against that? Would you want him anywhere near this country?? Is it just because he is basing his film on muslims and Islam that he should be allowed into this country?? For what reason should one indiviual be allowed into this country to publicise his views on Islam and Muslims, if a Muslim had done the same, he is deemed to be a terrorist, true??

You make a good point.

Aside from Turkey however, (where the Jews are a small, peaceable but increasingly beleaguered community) the Jews were already kicked out of those other so called 'moderate' Arab countries you mention in the 1950's. Problem solved as far as the Islamists are concerned. Now they're going after them again in Israel.

I must admit to not knowing much about the situation in Morocco, but the Coptic Christian community is under Governmental and Islamist inspired persecution and cultural siege in Egypt.

Whilst the other worlds great religions have proven themselves compatible with democracy and EDIT: pluralism (oops), thus far Islam has not whether they are in the majority or the minority.

Many if not most Moslem countries: (Pakistan, Lebanon, Palestine, Syria to mention a few) have either colluded or acquiesced in the persecution of Jews and Christians to the point that the Christian populations in such places are dramatically declining. So the Moslem countries are happily presiding over the cleansing of their Christian and Jewish communities without the need for Western based Moslem encouragement. Look what happened to Daniel Pearl in Pakistan for being Jewish.

Nevertheless, neither Christians nor Jews are calling for the overthrow of the systems in those countries nor are they demanding special rights or threatening to take to the streets in a violent manner if their demands are not met.

Wilders says that Islam is unique not only in its advocacy of reprisals against non-believers and apostates, but that there is an actual nexus between what is prescribed in the Quran and the hostile actions of Moslems today. This is manifested in a high level of domestic violence against women (wives, daughters and sisters), intimidation of those that might convert to another religion and indeed many Moslems that simply wish to accomodate the views of other faiths.

The message is loud and clear - publicly disrespect Islam and you are likely to pay with your life.

Wilders is himself living under 24 hour guard, whilst Theo Van Gough was slain in broad daylight in an Amsterdam street - not for calling for Islam to be banned, but for criticising its misogynism. The assailant's dagger was used to pin a note to his chest threatening further reprisals against infidels for such blasphemy.

The point is that Moslem preachers elected or otherwise accompany their messages with advocacy of violence – as they must. Be it against Jews, infidels, homosexuals, women or hapless cartoonists.

[Blue n White Rover]

You make a good point.

Aside from Turkey however, (where the Jews are a small, peaceable but increasingly beleaguered community) the Jews were already kicked out of those other so called 'moderate' Arab countries you mention in the 1950's. Problem solved as far as the Islamists are concerned. Now they're going after them again in Israel.

I must admit to not knowing much about the situation in Morocco, but the Coptic Christian community is under Governmental and Islamist inspired persecution and cultural siege in Egypt.

Whilst the other worlds great religions have proven themselves compatible with democracy and pluracy, thus far Islam has not whether they are in the majority or the minority.

Many if not most Moslem countries: (Pakistan, Lebanon, Palestine, Syria to mention a few) have either colluded or acquiesced in the persecution of Jews and Christians to the point that the Christian populations in such places are dramatically declining. So the Moslem countries are happily presiding over the cleansing of their Christian and Jewish communities without the need for Western based Moslem encouragement. Look what happened to Daniel Pearl in Pakistan for being Jewish.

Nevertheless, neither Christians nor Jews are calling for the overthrow of the systems in those countries nor are they demanding special rights or threatening to take to the streets in a violent manner if their demands are not met.

Wilders says that Islam is unique not only in its advocacy of reprisals against non-believers and apostates, but that there is an actual nexus between what is prescribed in the Quran and the hostile actions of Moslems today. This is manifested in a high level of domestic violence against women (wives, daughters and sisters), intimidation of those that might convert to another religion and indeed many Moslems that simply wish to accomodate the views of other faiths.

The message is loud and clear - publicly disrespect Islam and you are likely to pay with your life.

Wilders is himself living under 24 hour guard, whilst Theo Van Gough was slain in broad daylight in an Amsterdam street - not for calling for Islam to be banned, but for criticising its misogynism. The assailant's dagger was used to pin a note to his chest threatening further reprisals against infidels for such blasphemy.

The point is that Moslem preachers elected or otherwise accompany their messages with advocacy of violence – as they must. Be it against Jews, infidels, homosexuals, women or hapless cartoonists.

So your trying to say Muslims are going after Israel to kick them out their own country? Have you not seen the situation in Palestine? They are blocking all the borders so the Palestinians can not get any access to trade. They have to build tunnels under ground in order to bring in food to thier families. What Israel are doing is right in your case? The amount of innocnet women and children killed in them attacks, the amount of innocent women and children killed in Iraq, Afghanistan. Is that not torture? Is that not terrorism? Innocent people were killed in London and America in attacks. That was classed as terrorism. However, when innocent muslim children and women are killed in Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan it is not terrorism and totally acceptable? Get a grip!

We feel for those that died in America and in London yet many of you don't have the same affection of those others that are blatantly being tortured and killed in Muslim countries.

What the government did was bang on. Why let someone in and stand and cleary disgrace Islam? Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, many Muslims are populated throughout Britain. If Wilders did enter the country there would have been more hassle. So better off with him keeping his own views in his own country.

[gillibrand]

So your trying to say Muslims are going after Israel to kick them out their own country? Have you not seen the situation in Palestine? They are blocking all the borders so the Palestinians can not get any access to trade. They have to build tunnels under ground in order to bring in food to thier families. What Israel are doing is right in your case? The amount of innocnet women and children killed in them attacks, the amount of innocent women and children killed in Iraq, Afghanistan. Is that not torture? Is that not terrorism? Innocent people were killed in London and America in attacks. That was classed as terrorism. However, when innocent muslim children and women are killed in Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan it is not terrorism and totally acceptable? Get a grip!

We feel for those that died in America and in London yet many of you don't have the same affection of those others that are blatantly being tortured and killed in Muslim countries.

What the government did was bang on. Why let someone in and stand and cleary disgrace Islam? Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, many Muslims are populated throughout Britain. If Wilders did enter the country there would have been more hassle. So better off with him keeping his own views in his own country.

That is exactly what Wilders wants, let the Muslims keep their views in Muslim countries not western countries like Great Britain and The Netherlands, and what a cheek that Muslims are telling us who we should allow to visit our own country!

[leftfooter]

So your trying to say Muslims are going after Israel to kick them out their own country? Have you not seen the situation in Palestine? They are blocking all the borders so the Palestinians can not get any access to trade. They have to build tunnels under ground in order to bring in food to thier families. What Israel are doing is right in your case? The amount of innocnet women and children killed in them attacks, the amount of innocent women and children killed in Iraq, Afghanistan. Is that not torture? Is that not terrorism? Innocent people were killed in London and America in attacks. That was classed as terrorism. However, when innocent muslim children and women are killed in Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan it is not terrorism and totally acceptable? Get a grip!

We feel for those that died in America and in London yet many of you don't have the same affection of those others that are blatantly being tortured and killed in Muslim countries.

What the government did was bang on. Why let someone in and stand and cleary disgrace Islam? Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, many Muslims are populated throughout Britain. If Wilders did enter the country there would have been more hassle. So better off with him keeping his own views in his own country.

The Israel/Palestine question isn't part of this debate so I'll refrain from comment.

"...The amount of innocnet women and children killed in them attacks, the amount of innocent women and children killed in Iraq, Afghanistan. Is that not torture? Is that not terrorism? Innocent people were killed in London and America in attacks. That was classed as terrorism. However, when innocent muslim children and women are killed in Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan it is not terrorism and totally acceptable? Get a grip!..."

Let me get this right; you're directly equating the actions of British and NATO forces in Afghanistan fighting under a UN Mandate with the freelance terrorist atrocities carried out in London by Moslems against their fellow citizens? That's the equation that you seem to be making. If so it is an unscrupulous comparison.

"...We feel for those that died in America and in London yet many of you don't have the same affection of those others that are blatantly being tortured and killed in Muslim countries..."

Where were all the Moslems protesting for the Tibetans, the Darfurians or the Christians in Pakistan? Where are the Moslems protesting against Moslem perpetrated acts of terrorism? Even when Moslems do speak out, it always is followed with a mealy mouthed qualification like ("The amount of innocnet women and children killed in them attacks, the amount of innocent women and children killed in Iraq, Afghanistan. Is that not torture? "). Now where did we just read that I wonder?

As for those being 'tortured and killed' in Moslem countries, the vast majority of those doing the torturing are Moslems themselves.

"...What the government did was bang on. Why let someone in and stand and cleary disgrace Islam? Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, many Muslims are populated throughout Britain. If Wilders did enter the country there would have been more hassle. So better off with him keeping his own views in his own country..."

Islam is a growing religion through the high birth rate of its followers who are generally from backward and under developed parts of the world. As for worrying about Geert Wilders 'disgracing' Islam, Moslems are more than capable of doing that for themselves. They need no help from others.

[Blue n White Rover]

That is exactly what Wilders wants, let the Muslims keep their views in Muslim countries not western countries like Great Britain and The Netherlands, and what a cheek that Muslims are telling us who we should allow to visit our own country!

That is just plain stupid then. Other than a few countries such as Saudi Arabia, most of the countries have mixed-race and many people believe in different religions. We have Hindus, Jews, Muslims, Christians and many other religions in this country, so why not tell them to keep thier views in their countries?

It was the Government that decided he shouldn't enter this country, not muslims, so get the facts right please.

The Israel/Palestine question isn't part of this debate so I'll refrain from comment.

"...The amount of innocnet women and children killed in them attacks, the amount of innocent women and children killed in Iraq, Afghanistan. Is that not torture? Is that not terrorism? Innocent people were killed in London and America in attacks. That was classed as terrorism. However, when innocent muslim children and women are killed in Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan it is not terrorism and totally acceptable? Get a grip!..."

Let me get this right; you're directly equating the actions of British and NATO forces in Afghanistan fighting under a UN Mandate with the freelance terrorist atrocities carried out in London by Moslems against their fellow citizens? That's the equation that you seem to be making. If so it is an unscrupulous comparison.

"...We feel for those that died in America and in London yet many of you don't have the same affection of those others that are blatantly being tortured and killed in Muslim countries..."

Where were all the Moslems protesting for the Tibetans, the Darfurians or the Christians in Pakistan? Where are the Moslems protesting against Moslem perpetrated acts of terrorism? Even when Moslems do speak out, it always is followed with a mealy mouthed qualification like ("The amount of innocnet women and children killed in them attacks, the amount of innocent women and children killed in Iraq, Afghanistan. Is that not torture? "). Now where did we just read that I wonder?

As for those being 'tortured and killed' in Moslem countries, the vast majority of those doing the torturing are Moslems themselves.

"...What the government did was bang on. Why let someone in and stand and cleary disgrace Islam? Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, many Muslims are populated throughout Britain. If Wilders did enter the country there would have been more hassle. So better off with him keeping his own views in his own country..."

Islam is a growing religion through the high birth rate of its followers who are generally from backward and under developed parts of the world. As for worrying about Geert Wilders 'disgracing' Islam, Moslems are more than capable of doing that for themselves. They need no help from others.

High birth rate, sums up the quality of your post.

[leftfooter]

That is just plain stupid then. Other than a few countries such as Saudi Arabia, most of the countries have mixed-race and many people believe in different religions. We have Hindus, Jews, Muslims, Christians and many other religions in this country, so why not tell them to keep thier views in their countries?

It was the Government that decided he shouldn't enter this country, not muslims, so get the facts right please.

But the Hindus, Jews, Christians, Buddhists came to the UK, thrived and respected the culture and laws of this country.

They aren't spawning home grown terrorst cells, are not taking to the streets nor using violent or intimidatory tactics to impose their will and views on others.

That's the difference.

[Blue n White Rover]

But the Hindus, Jews, Christians, Buddhists came to the UK, thrived and respected the culture and laws of this country.

They aren't spawning home grown terrorst cells, are not taking to the streets nor using violent or intimidatory tactics to impose their will and views on others.

That's the difference.

Due to one idiotic attack in London, Muslims do not respect the laws of this country?

What violent in the streets is this? I haven't seen any.

Look at the bigger picture, don't only look at Britain, look worldwide then maybe you will see the likes of the Jews disrespecting the laws of other countries.

[gillibrand]

That is just plain stupid then. Other than a few countries such as Saudi Arabia, most of the countries have mixed-race and many people believe in different religions. We have Hindus, Jews, Muslims, Christians and many other religions in this country, so why not tell them to keep thier views in their countries?

It was the Government that decided he shouldn't enter this country, not muslims, so get the facts right please.

High birth rate, sums up the quality of your post.

The "Facts" are that there was a threat of a protest at Westminster by Muslims if Geert Wilders was allowed to come to the House of Lords, and so the cowardly British government did what the Muslims wanted them to do!

[leftfooter]

High birth rate, sums up the quality of your post.

Are you at least prepared to concede that there is a clear bright line between British and NATO forces fighting in Afghanistan under a UN Mandate and with Security Council authorisation with those Britsh Moslems that carried out the attacks on the London transport system against their fellow citizens and those Al-Queda trained fanatics that perpetrated 9/11?

Yes or No?

[leftfooter]

Due to one idiotic attack in London, Muslims do not respect the laws of this country?

What violent in the streets is this? I haven't seen any.

Look at the bigger picture, don't only look at Britain, look worldwide then maybe you will see the likes of the Jews disrespecting the laws of other countries.

I wouldn't call it 'idiotic'. I would call it heinous or evil. There is no other description of it is there?

As far as violence in the streets is concerned, we are coming up to the twentieth anniversary of the infamous Salman Rushdie inspired Bradford and Bolton book burnings by Moslems and calls within mosques for him to be assassinated, which you don't condone I presume?

Was there not violence in London opposite the Israeli embassy in London but a few weeks ago? Wasn't a police officer knocked unconscious? Was not a Starbucks smashed up for perceived 'Jewish' links? I would call that violent and intimidating behaviour, which you condemn, right?

[leftfooter]

Look at the bigger picture, don't only look at Britain, look worldwide then maybe you will see the likes of the Jews disrespecting the laws of other countries.

But we're talking about Geert Wilders not being allowed to visit Britain due to a perceived threat to 'community harmony'.

What about in Britain? That's what we're talking about isn't it?

Do you have a problem with 'the Jews' by any chance?

Do you think 'the Jews' lack respect for the laws of the UK and other countries?

[gillibrand]

And lets not forget the car bomb at Glasgow Airport or the failed car bomb out side a London nightclub etc etc, !!!

[Blue n White Rover]

I wouldn't call it 'idiotic'. I would call it heinous or evil. There is no other description of it is there?

As far as violence in the streets is concerned, we are coming up to the twentieth anniversary of the infamous Salman Rushdie inspired Bradford and Bolton book burnings by Moslems and calls within mosques for him to be assassinated, which you don't condone I presume?

Was there not violence in London opposite the Israeli embassy in London but a few weeks ago? Wasn't a police officer knocked unconscious? Was not a Starbucks smashed up for perceived 'Jewish' links? I would call that violent and intimidating behaviour, which you condemn, right?

If you want to have a look at violence what about Christianity? Rhys Jones, innocent child shot dead, you condone that don't you?

The violence in Manchester after the UEFA cup final, where not only one policeman but more were battered? Do you accept that? Is there place for that in this country?

What happened in London was evil as you said, why was it? Becasue innocent people were killed weren't they?

So that brings it back to Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine, why is it not classed as evil when innocent people are killed in these countries?

[gillibrand]

If you want to have a look at violence what about Christianity? Rhys Jones, innocent child shot dead, you condone that don't you?

The violence in Manchester after the UEFA cup final, where not only one policeman but more were battered? Do you accept that? Is there place for that in this country?

What happened in London was evil as you said, why was it? Becasue innocent people were killed weren't they?

So that brings it back to Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine, why is it not classed as evil when innocent people are killed in these countries?

This thread is about Geert Wilders not being allowed to visit Britain, not some other country, please keep on the subject being debated.

[Blue n White Rover]

This thread is about Geert Wilders not being allowed to visit Britain, not some other country, please keep on the subject being debated.

Maybe if you read the whole topic it is related to Wilders and what he said.

Keep up