[Archived] Manchester United Preview

[Majiball]

before he used to have a great aptitude for striking a dead ball, he even tried at least once a game to whip it in direct from the corner, whats happened to his flair? I do wonder if Bentley signing and basically taking his role IE set-pieces main winger etc knocked his confidence or belief in himself a bit more than we thought.

Playing 5 in the middle will (hopefully) mean he's further forward if picked and as such should end up in more scoring/creative opportunities a few successes and he could get back to where he should be. Wasn't he rated a 10M pound player and linked with spurs and United? and everyone else, even the Gunners? thats the level he's capable off and he achieved because he had flair now he just seems to take the safe option.

I completely understand why he went down as he said by the letter of the law it is a penalty but given the ref's favouritism for United I would expect all of my players to know that its highly unlikely to be given. Mourinho moaned about it saying it was forbidden, I have no idea how many have been given since the inception of the premiership but I'll wager its very low. I found a thread from 2007 saying not since Ruel fox in 1993, but don't know if that's still the case. but one pen in 14 years means I would favour the goal scoring opportunity over the chance of a penalty (unless you could make it or it was blatant).

Didn't United also have a "dodgy decision" over Evans dis-allowed goal? Ref's do like to even things up?

I do believe the fans have been very patient with Gamst but now its time for him to stand up and be counted and make a contribution, he is more than capable. If a few more of our players where playing as we know they can staying up would not be in question, I find it rather frustrating if I'm being honest ( and from Sam's look in his interview I would hazard he does as well). Gamst used to create 10+ goals a year and way in with a few goals as well, he has a good cross and is easily capable of sticking the ball right on Roque's noggin. But he isn't and doesn't look like doing so anytime soon, Sam is renowned for getting the best out of his players, hopefully he can figure out whats wrong with Pedersen because something obviously is.

Any Result would have been a great catalyst to spur us on and it was there to be had. Two clear cut opportunities missed, that one point or even a win would have been worth all the tea in china to us.

EDIT: I can't find any good highlights in reference to the strength applied as I'd want to see his foot positions before commenting. Rafael's not exactly well built though and gamst is probably heavier as well, but a push in the right place with his feet in poor positions would mean he'd go over without much effort, but no ref understands things like that at old trafford.

You really have to regard the home teams penalty box at Old trafford as a smaller version of the Bermuda triangle, penalties just disappear

[Stuart]

Any ideas why Diouf was replaced by Treacy with about 10 minutes left? Felt like the towel being thrown in. Apart from that great effort by the lads. Hope we can maintain that level.

[Mozzer]

i thought the team played well yesterday...i thought the tatics were spot on-altho villaneuva could have played where andrews was supposed to-ive never critised keith andrews but in the past two games-hes just been a passenger-all he does it run around the field..

for me it was a penalty-but maybe the ref bottled it with it being at old trafford-why would pedersen go down when he was about to score???

im impressed by diouf aswell-tracked back, tried to create when he had the ball-i think he will prove to be a good signing for us..

gael givet-has to be signed-he looks a class act..

on to hull which is a really important game for us..

[philipl]

Just seen the Match of the Day "highlights"- why wasn't our all out attack at the end included?

Anyway observations:

- Ooijer was brilliant in the way he robbed Nani and shimmied away effectively taking four Man U players away with him and his through ball was perfection to RSC. Even then RSC had two defenders and the keeper to beat which he did in perfect text book style. Someone wrote elsewhere, what stars do Rovers have? Ooijer and Roque answered that question for you.

- Ronaldo's kick at Dunn merited a straight red.

- Andrews barge into Nani reminded me so much of that Peter Kay advert where you have a group of footballer in a circle keeping the ball up and Kay just boots it into the neighbouring gardens. Unfortunately, Andrews looked as out of place as that at Old Trafford yesterday and that barge on Nani was just late and horribly timed. The free kick was taken from the right place- why Andrews didn't just stand up and shepherd Nani I don't know.

- It was a penalty on MGP, his feet were clipped as well as the arms on his shoulder putting him off balance. Again there was a fabulous through ball putting him in.

Just seen the Match of the Day "highlights"- why wasn't our all out attack at the end included?

Anyway observations:

- Ooijer was brilliant in the way he robbed Nani and shimmied away effectively taking four Man U players away with him and his through ball was perfection to RSC. Even then RSC had two defenders and the keeper to beat which he did in perfect text book style. Someone wrote elsewhere, what stars do Rovers have? Ooijer and Roque answered that question for you.

- Ronaldo's kick at Dunn merited a straight red.

- Andrews barge into Nani reminded me so much of that Peter Kay advert where you have a group of footballer in a circle keeping the ball up and Kay just boots it into the neighbouring gardens. Unfortunately, Andrews looked as out of place as that at Old Trafford yesterday and that barge on Nani was just late and horribly timed. The free kick was taken from the right place- why Andrews didn't just stand up and shepherd Nani I don't know.

- It was a penalty on MGP, his feet were clipped as well as the arms on his shoulder putting him off balance. Again there was a fabulous through ball putting him in.

[M-K]

why would pedersen go down when he was about to score???

Because he wasn't about to score. He could have had a shot that might have missed the target or been saved, he feels the defender touch his shoulder and he decides somebody will have a much better chance from the penalty spot.

That's the pro footballer mentality. If in doubt, take a dive (and it certainly looked to me like he dived).

[1864roverite]

Did anyone hear my rant read out at Alan Green on five live ?

I have just about calmed down after this game. I predicted a United whitewash but once again my beloved Rovers upset the manckchester applecart and go so close to achieving a result noone even considered.

Penalty decision 1 ? definately a ronaldo dive and should have seen red for blatant cheating.

Free kick ? class finish but should he have been on the park ? Answer No he should have been bathing with the united backroom staff after kicking Dunny no matter how petty it may seem to ferguson.

Ruled out goal ? Couldnt see anything wrong but the lino got his decision woefully wrong in the first place.

Penalty decision 2 ? blatant penalty to Rovers how Webb failed to give it will remain as big a mystery as the referees decision to send off Henning Berg after a quality tackle against the same club at Ewood many moons ago.

Proud as punch for my team.

I still despise everything United.

Webb is a wally.

Fergie at least showed a great deal of humility in accepting Rovers performance.

We have the chance to make amends with a little league run of points to take us out of the bottom 3.

Hull next, same again please Rovers.

[PAFELL]

Any ideas why Diouf was replaced by Treacy with about 10 minutes left? Felt like the towel being thrown in. Apart from that great effort by the lads. Hope we can maintain that level.

Diouf had a hamstring problem and signaled to the bench to replace him.

[OscarRaven]

As Pedersen said in the post match interview, why would he go down when he was going to score?

Beacuse he is a coward & a cheat.

He was through on goal the contact was minimal, it would have been easier for him to stay on his feet and take his shot. He was scared of misssing and felt going down would absolve him of any responsibility.

For all his natural talent, the guy is mentally soft. Not someone who should be in the team in a relegation battle, not that we have any viable alternatives.

[DP]

I don't need to add too much to the team performance, which was excellent, but a couple of points:

- MGP was excellent today. Worked his socks off and gave Rafael a torrid time. It was deffo a penalty and Rafael clearly clips his ankle and knocks it on to the other leg. If this happens when you're running there's no staying on your feet. Unfortunately for us, it looks like he's gone down easy from an arm on the shoulder, which doesn't have the same effect. Doesn't really matter though, it's still a pen. Webb can deduct that the collision is accidental and not send the defender off, but he can't avoid giving the penatly. Trouble is, would we have scored it anyway?*

- Givet. Very mobile with plenty of pace but aggressive in the challenge. Think he was suited to United's style (i.e. no big man up front) but does Sam have a selection dilemna for the next game?

- Robbo. I want to support the guy but why stand so far off your line when the angle is alreagy narrow? He was beaten by pure pace and the ball dipping late. Stays on his line he gives himself a much better chance to save it. Not going to blame anyone for the first goal as I though it was a great cross and anticipation from Rooney. Robbo is your classic modern day goalie: big, agile, kicks well, but lacks some of the basics in order to be a solid goalie. Give me the Tim Flowers variety any day.

(*Wasn't our last pen there in a leage game in 2003. Reserve keeper brings down Cole when clean through? Dunny steps up and has his pen saved!)

Now, we have our best opportunity over the next weeks to pick up points. Games against top half team who may/may not have much to play for, or are maybe not quite feeling the pressure (a lot like Utd yesterday). I'm thinking Hull, Fulham, West Ham and Wigan. All very winable games against decent teams who may just have their foot off the gas.

[Exiled in Toronto]

Someone wrote elsewhere, what stars do Rovers have? Ooijer and Roque answered that question for you.

Both of who are off in the summer - marvellous. And that would be the Ooijer whose star qualities cost us 2 points vs City

Back to the perennial Andrews debate: I didn't notice him either, but the Daily Telegraph stats section tells me he made 26 passes at a 76% completion rate, more than any other of our midfielders, Dunny managing 13 passes at a 46% success rate. I also didn't notice Scholes after the first 15 mins which may have been due to someone doing a lot of unglamorous running.

I'm not thrilled with him either, but Sam's had him on the pitch for more minutes than Ince did, which is good enough for me. We just don't have anyone else who can last 90 mins and get anywhere near the opponents box, which is a pathetic state of affairs.

[John]

Don't think they were taking the mick, but couple of Man Utd fans remarked to me that they were impressed with Andrews.....

[AggyBlue]

Don't think they were taking the mick, but couple of Man Utd fans remarked to me that they were impressed with Andrews.....

His stats are good and that's why Sam will keep playing him.

[LeChuck]

- Givet. Very mobile with plenty of pace but aggressive in the challenge. Think he was suited to United's style (i.e. no big man up front) but does Sam have a selection dilemna for the next game?

I thought Warnock had a very good game as well so that makes it even harder. Givet at left back and Warnock to replace Andrews maybe?

[oozy]

His stats are good and that's why Sam will keep playing him.

His stats? How many times did he touch the ball?

[Exiled in Toronto]

His stats? How many times did he touch the ball?

27 times. 20 times he gave it to a blue and white shirt, 6 times to a red shirt and the 27th time he had a header on target.

[Eddie]

Good performance by the team, although I still say with the way that we set our stall out we were virtually guaranteed to go behind. Certainly didn't deserve to lose the game and I was very proud.

Andrews is once again getting some stick, but I thought he and Grella were good in central midfield. Dunn was woeful for most of the match.

Also, was the rovers fan sitting in the Long Hop in Paris someone from this site?

[spencey7]

I simply don't understand what Vogel has done to warrant being frozen out by successive managers like this. He can't be worse than Andrews, the guy's played for some pretty great teams, and even if he's rusty that's understandable since he's barely been given a chance. He was excellent in our 1-1 draw vs United last year. Deserves at least a run in the side or even a place on the bench.

Couldn't agree more:

Vogel

31 years old

94 caps for Switzerland and their former captain, played in two European Championships and a World Cup.

Previous clubs: Real Betis, PSV Eindhoven, AC Milan.

A well-travelled, experienced player of international quality.

Andrews

28 years old

2 caps for Ireland

Previous clubs: Wolves, Oxford, Stoke, Walsall, Hull, MK Dons.

A player in a league vastly above his level, whose only achievements have come in League Two.

[spencey7]

His [Andrews'] stats are good and that's why Sam will keep playing him.

To quote the great Ebbe Skovdahl (ex of Aberdeen Football Club):

"Statistics are just like mini-skirts, they give you good ideas but hide the most important thing."

[DeadlyDirk]

Well thought I'd wait a little while for my blue and white tinted glasses to calm down but there certainly are a lot of talking points about the game.

The match

Overall we played well but it's worth pointing out that Man Utd were well below par. In the first half we struggled to keep up in my opinion and were lucky to go in 1-1, second half we outplayed them and ended up losing, that's football for you! The tactics worked well to contain them but in the first half it just kept coming back at us after Roque would chase down the clearance often winning it but with nobody to challenge for the second ball it was always going to come back at us. I didn't think Ronaldo did a lot with the ball which is credit to Warnock, although his distribution was poor at times. The majority of the team played well second half especially and we really gave them a run for their money, we can only be proud of the team after that performance.

Paul Robinson

I've defended Robbo to the hills, as recently as an hour before kick off on here but I'm struggling to run out of defence for him. I was a prety useful goalkeeper in my youth for 10 years so I'd like to think I have some idea of what I'm talking about but by no means am I any expert. Initially I gave him no blame for the first goal but after watching it ten or so times there is a moment's hesitation for the first goal from him, if he had reacted instantly to Nelson's touch (Like Rooney did) then I feel he could have smothered it or at least got a block in. It's one of those ones when he's not really at fault for the goal but a better keeper might well have kept it out.

The second goal is down to Andrews poor challenge and some poor decision making/positioning by Robbo. Okay credit where it's due Ronaldo hit it well with a bit of dip but it was hardly an inviting angle from him. Robbo positioned his wall poorly which left him unsighted, as well as one Rovers player between the wall and Robbo. He never saw it until it had gone over the wall which left it too late. He was around 5 yards off his line and the ball more or less went straight over his head, it hardly arked (sp?) into the top corner. If he had been sighted through the wall then it would probably have been a comfortable save. Due to the fact he couldn't see it he had about ten feet to react and probably about 1/4 of a second!

Gael Givet

This is the sort of Rover I want, he looks like the sort of player who wears his heart on his sleeve and gives his all. (Marseille coach has made a big error!) He is an excellent reader of the game, good in the air and a fantastic tackler. Bar Samba he has more pace than the rest of our defenders as well. It may be early days but we don't have time to play with, for my money he has to start the next game. They have a few options which are too drop Warnock and play him at left back or to play him at left back and put Warnock in midfield. I'd feel though that he is almost wasted at left back because he looks that good! The other option is obviously to play him at center back which is where I want him to play. For my money he is better than Nelson and arguably better than Samba. The problem being do you drop Samba or our captain admiral? For once it's a good selection problem to have, Allardyce gets paid the money to make these decisions so I guess we'll wait and see what he does.

Andre Ooijer

I've been critical of him at right back as most have been since it isn't his strongest position but defensively he was strong, did Nani do anything other than be at fault for the goal? Then going forward Ooijer was tremendous, a fantastic read by him for the goal to rob the ball then show great composure to feed it through to Roque with what is probably our best of the season. Good work Andre!

Ronaldo

Well on the ball as I mentioned he didn't do a lot, Warnock showed him on to his left foot well most of the times which while still strong is not as good as his right and was the right thing to do. Right the major talking points are his stupid dive which he was rightfully booked for, one of the few decisions the ref got right today. Then there is the kick, it's stupid, it's petulant or as the BBC commentator said, downright cheating! Now I don't see how he can stay on the pitch after this? If it's not sent in after the game I'll be disgusted. It's the same as Wright Phillips did the other day and he got a 3 match ban afterwards. The most annoying thing is that it was right in front of the referee's eyes. Haven't seen if he moved the ball forward or not for the free kick, if that's the case then I'm not going to be too critical, a lot of players try it and that's more the referee's mistake for allowing it than Ronaldo's.

Was it or wasn't it?

Evans's goal doesn't need to much talking about, it was not a corner, Pedersen was about a foot away from it. Credit to the BBC for at least showing this on the highlights! Why he dissallowed the goal though I'm not sure, possibly for Ronaldo's arms being up?

The big one though is Pedersen. For me it's a penalty clear as day and I do not think that he dived. Pedersen has never been the strongest lad, isn't that why Hughes wouldn't initially play him? The fact is that both or Rafael's arms were all over him and on closer inspection it seems that this minor tug causes Pedersen to break slide and allow there legs to be caught up as well which causes him to fall. Pedersen himself has said why would he dive in that position and I agree with him. Of course if he had dived he isn't exctly going to admit it but sometimes you have to give players some credit. I don't recall Pedersen diving before, although I could be wrong.

It may not be the largest amount of contact but why does that matter? Where in the rulebook does it say, for it to be a penalty he has to pull him pretty hard? Or the contact has to be equivalent to 14lbs of pressure or more? If a player had been clean through on goal and the defender just feintly clipped his heels would that not be a penalty as there was minimal contact? It shouldn't be any different for hands on the back/shoulders. Rafael's body language did show it up as well which Sam mentioned which the BBC then showed their idiocracy by taking the mick out of. I've studied body language and it does account for around 65% of communication if not more. Sam's obviously just a bit more intelligent than Hansen and Lineker!

At the end of the day the referee bottled it and nobody can argue that as if it wasn't a penalty then why wasn't Pedersen booked for diving?

Keith Andrews

Another player who I haven't defended as such but I feel he comes under unfair criticism due to him coming from the lower leagues and being an Ince signing but I am wondering what he offered today. Whenver I saw him he didn't seem to be doing much but for Ince, Trappatoni and Allardyce to pick him I guess he has to be doing something right. Of course there are the arguments that Ireland are not that strong and that Ince was foolish but I guess (And I know this isn't much of a compliment) they must think he is better than Mokoena, Vogel not too mention the fact that we were not really linked with any central midfielders in January.

Still I'd like to know what he is offering other than an engine and decent work ethic. I can see why he stayed on though as with Dunn and Grella alongside him he's the only one that can run! I guess I've answered my own question. he's in the team because he can run! To be fair though I think Dunny gave it away a lot more than him yesterday.

Spit The Diouf

Still don't like him but he was a plus point and I was impressed with his desire to get back and help the defence as well as his composure on the ball. I think he only went off for Treacey as he hasn't had a lot of games lately and probably isn't quite up to full match fitness.

Overall there are plenty of positives from the game, we played well against the best team in the world and they were lucky to get 3 points at their home ground which has been a fortress more than ever in 2009. Roque got a goal and that can only bring him confidence. Surely he knows the only way he's getting a £20 million move at the end of the season is if he keeps scoring goals! New signings like Givet and Diouf played well (We can moan about not bringing many in over January but at least we've brought 2 players who can immediately strengthen the starting eleven) as well as regulars like Ooijer and Grella showing signs of improving. The formation of 4-5-1 is definitely a viable option for us, not just away either, it allows us to keep it tight in the first half and then show more attacking threat in the second when they start to tire a bit more.

The few negatives are the fact that we didn't get any points despite one of our best performances of the season and Robbo's form. It was one of Dunny's poorer games for us which wasn't great to see and I don't think Benni did a lot when he came on but let's be fair he only had ten minutes. (I think he's much better starting.

Like others have said if we play like that the rest of the season we won't go down, the only thing that worries me is I remember many of us said the same thing after the Citeh game.

All in all proud to be a Rover, Arte Et Labore.

[Exiled in Toronto]

Couldn't agree more:

Vogel

31 years old

94 caps for Switzerland and their former captain, played in two European Championships and a World Cup.

Previous clubs: Real Betis, PSV Eindhoven, AC Milan.

A well-travelled, experienced player of international quality.

Andrews

28 years old

2 caps for Ireland

Previous clubs: Wolves, Oxford, Stoke, Walsall, Hull, MK Dons.

A player in a league vastly above his level, whose only achievements have come in League Two.

Vogel:

Prior to being signed by Hughes, was without a club for 6 months, i.e. no manager in Europe fancied him

Signed by a clearly p!ssed off Hughes to a long, lucrative contract after a handful of anonymous performances

Ingored by Ince (but we can read nothing into that)

Ignored by Allardyce, a manager who built his reputation by getting the best out of ageing European stars with track records just like Vogel's

Conclusion: Vogel is Hughes' revenge!

[imy9]

Beacuse he is a coward & a cheat.

He was through on goal the contact was minimal, it would have been easier for him to stay on his feet and take his shot. He was scared of misssing and felt going down would absolve him of any responsibility.

For all his natural talent, the guy is mentally soft. Not someone who should be in the team in a relegation battle, not that we have any viable alternatives.

What a load of tosh. The contact was clearly there, at the speed he was travelling the tug and clip of his legs took MGP off balance. Interesting how every neutral I have listened to agrees that it was a CLEAR pen, no question.

Mentally soft? I think MGP works bloody hard for us, so he has not been scoring 6-10 goals a season, he still works hard and delivered a number of good balls into the box. Oh out of interest MGP played in the Rovers side the last time we were in a relegation battle.

[OscarRaven]

What a load of tosh. The contact was clearly there, at the speed he was travelling the tug and clip of his legs took MGP off balance. Interesting how every neutral I have listened to agrees that it was a CLEAR pen, no question.

"It is not a blatant one" - Big Sam.

Every neutral loves Utd right? Most people I have spoken to say it should have been a penalty too, the justification they use is, why else would he go down when he is through on goal? The answer: He was petrified he would miss (my opinion)!

He went down soft instead of having the confidence to finish - that makes him a cheat and a coward in my eyes, Rovers player or not.

He had one of his better games otherwise. I'm pretty sure he will be in the media shortly telling us about his latest crisis of confidence, and how he's come through it (again).

[92er]

Vogel:

Prior to being signed by Hughes, was without a club for 6 months, i.e. no manager in Europe fancied him

Signed by a clearly p!ssed off Hughes to a long, lucrative contract after a handful of anonymous performances

Ingored by Ince (but we can read nothing into that)

Ignored by Allardyce, a manager who built his reputation by getting the best out of ageing European stars with track records just like Vogel's

Conclusion: Vogel is Hughes' revenge!

Vogel played a number of decent games last season and played very well in some.

He was signed after the Jan window; MH had wanted to buy a replacement for Savage but was refused funds.

He had to therefore sign some one who was a free agent. Vogel played well enough to be awarded a contract.

Why is Allardyce not playing him? I have no idea but I half fear he is basing his judgement on the info from some of the people who worked with Ince.

Certainly, on his performances last year, he showed his fitness was as good as Grella's and appeared to be as good a player as him, if not better.

What a load of tosh. The contact was clearly there, at the speed he was travelling the tug and clip of his legs took MGP off balance. Interesting how every neutral I have listened to agrees that it was a CLEAR pen, no question.

Mentally soft? I think MGP works bloody hard for us, so he has not been scoring 6-10 goals a season, he still works hard and delivered a number of good balls into the box. Oh out of interest MGP played in the Rovers side the last time we were in a relegation battle.

I think MGP always delivers a number of good passes each match. Whether he produces enough, or whether the other players not getting on the end of them is part of the problem could be up for discussion.

[thenodrog]

whhhaaattttt Diouf off and Treacy on... we have better wingers than diouf, but Treacy in NOT one of them

Eh? I must be missing something!

[thenodrog]

this is some of the worst refereeing of a match i have EVER seen.

Ronaldo KICKS givet off the ball... ref sees it and goes to talk to him, but does NOTHING. how can you possibly do that? how can you say you have refereed a game fairly if you see an off the ball incident where a player kicks another player, and do nothing about it?

I've always thought that Webb was a dodgy referee but tonght i think he is unfit to referee in this league.

ridiculous. If we lose it will be Howard Webbs fault

I rate Webb quite highly as far as refs go. But on this occasion he seems to have succumbed to the usual malaise and chickened out of sending people off at OT. Ronaldo's kick was an ineffectual tap but BUT it was deliberate and would have been punished with a red card 9 times out of 10 with any other team. Even a yellow would have seen him go for a second yellow. Means he wouldn't have scored either of course! Maybe Dunny (was it DD or GG btw?) should have gone down screaming and wriggling around like most of the poncy players do for greater effect.

I think the reason for not giving the pen would also have been that he would have had to send a Utd player off! It's wrong but I guess they are all sh1t scared of getting the disgraceful RFW treatment as David Elleray did which ended by death threats screwing his life for a considerable time.

Givet looks outstanding and our best defender by far, be interesting to see who's place he takes in the next game as I'm certain he will play.

Surely that'd be Andrews when Samba returns ..... Warnock will surely be played further forward. As with RSC at PNE I only had to see Givet for a short time to see that he is some player. He's been MoM for us in the two matches that he's played at Ewood and imo he was one of our our star players yesterday.

Efan Ekoku on the commentary is doing my head in!! He's criticising everything we do, moaned about Tugay coming on as he offers nothing apart from sitting in front of the back four apparantley and can't do anything in the final 3rd,

They've much in common then!