[Archived] Hull City V Blackburn Rovers

[den]

OK. Do you know that Paul Merson knows nothing about Rovers players?

Having played the game for years Merson will watch with an analytical eye, seeing things the average Rovers fan will not based on experience. Where does a player run? Does he communicate well? How is his positioning when he does not have the ball? Rovers fans tend to follow the ball.

You really believe that? Every Ex-player knows more about every rovers player than any rovers fan?

I would say, in all honesty, there are at least 15000 rovers fans that know more about our players than Merson.

[RibbleValleyRover]

I think you are being a bit harsh on some of your ratings Graham, especially Samba (who i thought was immense), Givet and Diouf. Warnock was the MOTM for me.

[Iceman]

Its funny how Andrews is getting the same criticism, as Mokoena got when he was played in that 4-51 formation. For all Mokoenas lack of anything, he worked tremendously hard for the cause. The same can now be said of Andrews, and as Mrs Gumboots said he aint no star, but he tries hard and gives 200 percent in effort and commitment.

[Majiball]

So Called Experts take on the fans at 2002 world cup

Read the abstract, some interesting results and relevant to the coach/fan argument.

[dellinsert]

• Big Sam went negative at the end again, al la City and all it did was invite trouble from a a very fit Hull City full of cloggers. This needs addressing as it causes a lack of confidence.

A point I made after the City game and was shot down...

[den]

Its funny how Andrews is getting the same criticism, as Mokoena got when he was played in that 4-51 formation. For all Mokoenas lack of anything, he worked tremendously hard for the cause. The same can now be said of Andrews, and as Mrs Gumboots said he aint no star, but he tries hard and gives 200 percent in effort and commitment.

He's not, if anyone cares to follow the discussion, getting criticism for yesterday's game. Some are saying he was our best midfielder, some disagree.

Disagreeing is akin to being a dingle according to some.

[CrazyIvan]

Disagreeing is akin to being a dingle according to some.

That's an exaggeration to say the least... You just bang the same old drum over and over.

[Fife Rover]

I thought that Andrews was okay. He was better than Grella on the day, kept working, and you do have to say he has contributed more than Dunn this sdeason just by the virtue of being fit! At one point he did an excellent drag back to beat a tackler and then sprayed the ball wide. A bit of quality is there.

However it was obvious that he was a yard behind the pace, and rarely looked like winnig the ball in the middle of the park when Hull had posession. It is without doubt that he will be on the bench next season after we sign someone but he does not deserve some of the stick he gets. He tries which is more than many who have turned out for us recently. It is also apparent to me that we will play 451/433 for the rest of the season and Andrews will play every game unless Dunn is fit and Warnock shows the same ability in midfield as he did yesterday. So you might as well get used to him and will him on to do well. That the fans are on his back hardly helps a guy who is trying to acclimatise to a new depth. We are shooting ourselves in the foot.

Absolutely spot on JBN!! (and Jono too)I too despair at the lack of comprehension shown by the majority of posters on the subject of Keith Andrews and his contribution to the Rovers cause. He is a long way short of the technical ability of the better PL midfielders, but then so were lots of others that we have employed to do the midfield grafting in recent years, but I don't remember seeing the same villification being thrown at them in the past. Like it or not, KA is a Rovers player and he tries his best in every match, so given that there is little alternative to him at present he deserves and should get the very fullest of backing and support from all true Rovers fans.

[Iceman]

Dennis we all know Andrews aint a star player, but how can people fault the guy for trying his best. Its a sad state of affairs when you have people constantly attacking the guy for at least trying. There are players in this squad who has more ability and talent than Andrews, but sometimes you wonder about their attitude of wanting to play for this team.

[Paul Mellelieu]

Absolutely spot on JBN!! (and Jono too)I too despair at the lack of comprehension shown by the majority of posters on the subject of Keith Andrews and his contribution to the Rovers cause. He is a long way short of the technical ability of the better PL midfielders, but then so were lots of others that we have employed to do the midfield grafting in recent years, but I don't remember seeing the same villification being thrown at them in the past. Like it or not, KA is a Rovers player and he tries his best in every match, so given that there is little alternative to him at present he deserves and should get the very fullest of backing and support from all true Rovers fans.

Ho doubting his attitude, and frankly that's not the issue. Neither is getting behind Rovers players. There is a difference of opinion of how good Andrews is. Mine, and others, is that, at best he's a Championship player. I think that his pairing with either Tugay or Grella is the main reason we're in the mess we're in right now.

Others think he's international class.

[den]

Dennis we all know Andrews aint a star player, but how can people fault the guy for trying his best. Its a sad state of affairs when you have people constantly attacking the guy for at least trying. There are players in this squad who has more ability and talent than Andrews, but sometimes you wonder about their attitude of wanting to play for this team.

Iceman, read the thread. For the umpteenth time I have not criticised his display yesterday. Just read it.

You too Fife.

In fact I'll help you out. HERE it is. Then read Jonno's posts below.

[Iceman]

No way can you blame this mess on Andrews, or those pairings Paul. C'mon give the guy a break, he doesnt pick himself Ince and now Allardyce does. Dunn and Grella have been constantly injured, and he has been given a chance.

[Paul Mellelieu]

No way can you blame this mess on Andrews, or those pairings Paul. C'mon give the guy a break, he doesnt pick himself Ince and now Allardyce does. Dunn and Grella have been constantly injured, and he has been given a chance.

Not blaming Andrews: I'm arguing that our central midfield has been the main reason we're in this mess. The fault for that lies with Paul Ince, the owners, and possibly Sam Allardyce.

[brfcs5359]

I think you are being a bit harsh on some of your ratings Graham, especially Samba (who i thought was immense), Givet and Diouf. Warnock was the MOTM for me.

Didn't want to get carried away beating a side full of cloggers that's all. Samba could have read (and be fair as well);

Samba - 7 - Immense at the back behind Nelsen. Complemented him perfectly against an aerial bombardment the Luftwaffe would have proud of. Didn't put a foot wrong apart from missing a clearance that Hull failed to capitalise on.

Diouf could have read;

Diouf - 6 - Worked his socks off for the team. Worked back and forward tirelessly. No pace and zero end product in terms of passes, crosses despite some good positions.

Not blaming Andrews: I'm arguing that our central midfield has been the main reason we're in this mess. The fault for that lies with Paul Ince, the owners, and possibly Sam Allardyce.

And mostly Mark Hughes as Bentley was always going. We were crap there last season and all Hughes could think of from Christmas on was leaving. Ince inherited a problem. He didn't make it.

[Lathund]

Apart from the goal, he had minimal effect on the game.

Apart from defending superbly, the defense also had minimal impact on the game.

"What have the Romans ever done for us???!?"

[Exiled in Toronto]

Not blaming Andrews: I'm arguing that our central midfield has been the main reason we're in this mess. The fault for that lies with Paul Ince, the owners, and possibly Sam Allardyce.

Surprised you left St Mark out of the blame game - he didn't leave us a single decent, fit central midfielder after 4 years in charge.

[Jonnolad]

Let's get back on track. The argument from Jonnolad was that Paul Merson knows more about Rovers players than the rovers fans. No he doesn't.

The coaches at Ewood certainly do know more about their players obviously, than the fans. That doesn't mean they get everything right. Does the manager always pick the right team? Your post suggests they do. It still remains though that Andrews' inclusion in the Irish team, proves nothing.

All this started because I took up a point that someone made, that Andrews had an "Effective" game yesterday. Apart from the goal, he had minimal effect on the game. The type of game that it was meant that he couldn't have much of an input. The back four and goalkeeper were the one's that won us that game, not the midfielders.

Yes let's get back on track because my argument wasn't "Paul Merson knows more about Rovers players than the rovers fans". I mentioned Paul Merson as just another person from within the game who seems to rate Keith Andrews' performances. It wasn't "my argument".

My argument is that everyone who actually involved in professional football seem to rate his performances as more than a "minimal effect" on the game. Which is definitely strange wouldn't you admit if your own analysis of his game is true? Do you not think that's a little strange?

Let's contrast and compare as to those who rate Andrews' performances as acceptable and those who think his performances are terrible:

For Andrews:

Sam Allerdyce

Giovanni Trappatoni

Paul Ince

Paul Merson

Every single football journalist from every match report I've read

Against Andrews:

Some of his own fans who have already admitted that where he came from affects their opinion

So what's going on here? It's spooky because it seems the reason behind this apparently massive divergence of opinions is staring us right in the face!

Or have Sam Allerdyce and Giovanni Trapatoni, amongst others, completely lost the plot when it comes to Keith Andrews? Well have they.

Either way, what harm would it actually do to give the bloke the huge cheer he's deserved from his own fans? Who knows, maybe that's what he's been waiting for before he puts in that performance which has more than a "minimal effect" on the game!

[bellamy11]

Obviously the real assessment of Keith Andrews's ability lies somewhere half in-between those who can't stand him and those who love him. All I'll say is that it was a superb run for the goal and that he had one of his best games for the club yesterday so good on him.

However, what strikes me as funny is that when we're mad at the team all we want for are people who "play with a bit of pride and passion" and have the best interests of the team at heart. People who show "guts" and "heart" and all those other things that we think would have made the difference (see Coventry thread for some good examples).

However, KA does this, and gets criticised for being a clogger. When it comes to skill and effort, the grass is always greener (when we're losing).

Seems to me that when people say they want a bit of effort and heart and pride, they actually mean they want Lionel Messi.

[tonygreenbank]

I also think the criticism of Andrews is a little unfair.. He`s not a Gerard or Lampard;he is a trier and I for one have seen elements of his game which are very encouraging. It must be very difficult for him to make the step up but I think we will see the best of him next year hopefully in the prem when he feels more at home. Given the right sort of encouragement and coaching then I think we have a decent midfielder for very little money.

[DE.]

Not blaming Andrews: I'm arguing that our central midfield has been the main reason we're in this mess. The fault for that lies with Paul Ince, the owners, and possibly Sam Allardyce.

If half of our team had the type of heart and battle Andrews shows we wouldn't be in this mess. The blame lies with practically every player, and whilst our central pairings in midfield aren't fantastic, I think the fact we sold two of our best players and replaced them with lesser replacements (Friedel out, Robinson in) or nobody at all (Bentley's sale) is more to blame. Employing a manager with no tactical sense or apparently any motivational skills (Ince) was also a far bigger cause of our current problems. MC is a problem area, but not the main reason we are where we are.

[den]

My argument is that everyone who actually involved in professional football seem to rate his performances as more than a "minimal effect" on the game. Which is definitely strange wouldn't you admit if your own analysis of his game is true? Do you not think that's a little strange?

As you know, I was talking about Sunday's game, and explained that his input was minimal, along with the other midfielders because of the type of football both sides employed. It wasn't a criticism aimed at him.

Let's contrast and compare as to those who rate Andrews' performances as acceptable and those who think his performances are terrible:

For Andrews:

Sam Allerdyce

Giovanni Trappatoni

Paul Ince

Paul Merson

Every single football journalist from every match report I've read

None of those people have said his performances have been acceptable. You are using the fact that they have selected him as proof of his quality. Have all the players that have played for those managers, been of acceptable premier league quality? Are all the ROI players Prem league quality? If Trapatoni or Allardyce drop him, will that mean he's not good enough, or will that mean nothing, allowing you to then argue that you can make your own mind up about him?

"Every single football journalist from every match report I've read" have said his performances are acceptable? - Well I'll just have to accept that then!

Against Andrews:

Some of his own fans who have already admitted that where he came from affects their opinion

Seeing that this is aimed at me, where's your evidence of this?

Either way, what harm would it actually do to give the bloke the huge cheer he's deserved from his own fans?

Non, I don't suppose. I was there on Sunday cheering them all on. Was you?

[Shabani]

Having been at the game yesterday i think people are being a bit kind to Andrews

He was caught in possession numerous times, really cannot tackle without fouling and gave away a dangerous free kick in exactly the same style as the man utd game

that said he made a great run for the goal

all in all though he still doesnt bring much to the team, hes just useful backup at best

[4ever&ever]

What a great weekend, went out round Hull and have to say it's an excellent night with loads of bars.

The ground was excellent as it kept the atmosphere in really well, the Rovers fans did us proud and the team did what they had to. I thought it was going to be another Citeh at home result like many other people, but we held firm and got the win.

I would also like to say that I thought Givet was outstanding and if we stay up he is a player that we must hang on to.

[Eddie]

Surprised you left St Mark out of the blame game - he didn't leave us a single decent, fit central midfielder after 4 years in charge.

That's the real point. We are in this central midfield mess more because of Hughes than anyone else. Sure, Ince's two (three if you count Villanueva) signings for central midfield haven't been fantastic, but he had a month or so to find a problem to a massive solution that Hughes had left sitting for years, moving from stop-gap to stop-gap and essentially ignoring a gaping whole in our team that was eventually going to become a huge problem as soon as cracks appeared anywhere else.

[1864roverite]

Seems to me that when people say they want a bit of effort and heart and pride, they actually mean they want Lionel Messi.

Give over lad, how do you expect Messi to cope with MGP already cemented in the left wing/midfield berth ?