[Archived] Sell Out At The Emirates

[Exiled_Rover]

Does anyone know how badly injured Warnock and Givet are?

[DE.]

Difficult one this. I look at the score and am embaressed, then look at our line up and it's obvious why we failed to get anything out of the game. Our GD has taken a battering and this could cost us at the end of the season (hopefully not), but all we can really take out of the game is that it has made crystal clear to Sam who is not premiership quality (as if he didn't already know) and that all results around us went well. We've been very lucky in that respect.

4-0 is a bad result and our record against the top 5 (we've also lost to Aston Villa twice) is shameful. We seem to be hopeless against any team of quality. It's something to be addressed for next season, because 0 points from matches against any of the top 5 is pretty sad, regardless of how good they are. Even Stoke managed 3 points against Liverpool.

We have to beat the sides around us, because it's clear Sam has no confidence our current crop of players can match the big boys, and looking at results, he's probably right. We seem to cack our pants at the sight of Arsenal, and though we battle against Utd and Liverpool and Chelsea we still lose.

Thank goodness we beat Fulham and Hull. Even that point at Everton seems meaningful now.

[Blue n White Rover]

Strange saying this today, but I felt we missed Nelsen's presence in our defence. We couldn't play the offside trap accordingly, probably due to the lack of communication between the two centre halves. We played well VS Fulham as a defensive unit, bar the first few minutes.

Hopefully, Nelsen will be back and we get 3 points VS West Ham.

International break may work in our favour this time round. We could get our key players back fully fit for the Spurs game, which could be a timely boost. Mind you, who was always complaining about international breaks??

[Paul Mellelieu]

Seen the game today?

Didn't think so.

After the injury to Warnock and Givet we couldn't have done much really, but my criticism isn't the substitutions we made but rather the starting line-up and the instructions that must have been given to the players. As I said, I would have played 4-4-2 with Benni and Roberts and then played Warnock alongisde someone in midfield (one of Mokoena, Dunn or Andrews depending on fitness reports).

That will be the last time I answer your "who should we have played then" question, I can't really get more precise than that. Somehow everyone here seems to have been blindly converted to 4-5-1, a formation we haven't employed on a regular basis for a long time and despite the fact that are team continues to look better whenever we play 4-4-2. We were embarrassing to watch today.

A) I didn't watch the game, but I don't think I need to have done. This team struggled to beat Blyth!

Quite frankly, you have to answer who should have played instead of the 11 Sam put out, and then ended with, or you should stop your long distance, short memory, carping.

C) I tend to look at the results, and while I've been in the very worried camp for months, you can't argue with Sam's record. And you seem to slag off everything he does. You need a very large dose of Premier League reality. Check the investment compared to all the other top-flight clubs, check the results at the Emirates in recent years, have a look at the team we had out there. Re-read Sam's record in the PL.

. We seem to be hopeless against any team of quality.

Beaten Everton twice and drawn once. Good performance at OT. Could have beaten Villa away.

[DE.]

Beaten Everton twice and drawn once. Good performance at OT. Could have beaten Villa away.

I wouldn't call Everton a "team of quality", i'm talking about the Utd's, Arsenals, and to an extent Villa. We may have had good performances but we didn't beat them, usually because we just don't match them man for man. If it had been the odd unlucky result, fair enough, but we haven't picked up a single point against any of the top 5 (generally the teams in the league with the most quality). Perhaps saying we're 'hopeless' is harsh, but picking up 0 points, not even a draw thus far, is quite disappointing and shows we have a problem playing these teams, as most of the teams below and around us have picked up at least 1 point against the top 5 sides.

[Mozzer]

sounds like injuries before and during the game cost us

im not too down heartened to be honest-losing against arsenal who are a top passing side isnt really embarrasing..on to the next game which is more important..

[DE.]

For what it's worth, I'm not saying I'm surprised we lost today. I'm disappointed at the margin of defeat but we're playing a patched up team and that has to be taken into account. It's more concerning to me that we've been unable to drag at least 1 point out of one of Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal and especially Villa, when so many teams around us have managed it. We seem to be a soft touch against these teams, which we never used to be. Everton are a team of grafters, for the most part, and whilst they do possess quality in players like Cahill and Arteta, their results come more through grit and determination than flashes of quality. The top 5 teams contain players that can create flashes of brilliance and almost single-handedly alter games (Torres/Gerrard for Liverpool, Ronaldo/Rooney for Utd, etc).

We need to rediscover the confidence we once had that made us fearful to these teams.

[allanncd]

The 2nd half was the most one sided I have ever seen in 40+ years of following Rovers. If Arse had a half-decent goalscorer instead of the Bendtner and without Robinson the result would have been well into double figures. Simpson is an abject apology for a footballer. A traffic cone would been more effective. Ollsson proved yet again he is far too weak and indecisive to play at this level or indeed any professional level. Moekena and Kish must be the most inept midfield pairing since the 3rd division days. Neither possesses even a shred of ability on the ball. Dunn would not have been less mobile with a zimmer frame. Robinson was outstanding but criminally exposed time and again. Samba was the only defender to emerge with credit. Pedersen battled hard and showed some quality. Unless there is a quick return to full fitness (not Dunn-style fitness) of players such as Givet, Warnock, Roque I still fear the worst despite the midweek boost. This match proved as did the debacles against Coventry that there are some players in this squad who are earning money under false pretences of being top-flight footballers and I pray they are not at EP next season whichever league Rovers are playing in.

[RevidgeBlue]

Expected nothing points wise from today and was not disappointed in that respect but boosted by Wednesday's last gasp win i did expect us to put up a lot better fight.

Must say over the years our record playing 4-5-1 has been generally abysmal and we were shocking at Fulham until Sam switched it to two up front.

Sincerely hope we start with two strikers in the remaining games.

P.S. Out of curiosity any stattos out there know what our worst previous points haul from the eight matches against the "big four" has been prior to this season?

[Eddie]

A) I didn't watch the game, but I don't think I need to have done. This team struggled to beat Blyth!

Quite frankly, you have to answer who should have played instead of the 11 Sam put out, and then ended with, or you should stop your long distance, short memory, carping.

C) I tend to look at the results, and while I've been in the very worried camp for months, you can't argue with Sam's record. And you seem to slag off everything he does. You need a very large dose of Premier League reality. Check the investment compared to all the other top-flight clubs, check the results at the Emirates in recent years, have a look at the team we had out there. Re-read Sam's record in the PL.

Beaten Everton twice and drawn once. Good performance at OT. Could have beaten Villa away.

1) Great, as watching games doesn't matter, does being at them matter more?

2) I have already answered who should have played, reread my previous post.

3) I can argue with Sam's record. I still think he's being given a bit too much credit so far. I'm not "slagging" him off for everything he does, I'm not overawed by what he is done so far or inspired by the type of football we are playing. I think he'll do the job to get and get us to safety, which will obviously be a good achievement, but he didn't take over a sunken ship and I'm looking for more than just someone able to put together a side capable of beating Hull, Stoke and a clueless Newcastle. I hope he turns into a great manager for us and the way he sets us out now won't necessarily be the way we look next September, but I'm just judging what I see so far. I'm well aware of the fact that we have struggled against Arsenal almost every season, but what I also do remember is that we've only got good results against them when we've tried to play (only one real exception springs to mind and that is the 2-1 win where I think we had only one shot on target an Edu own goal and Friedel made something like 20 saves, although the shots on targets and saves could be a bit off). I'll stand by the fact that Allardyce couldn't have asked for a much better run of games when he first took charge of the club and where we find ourselves now is mainly the result of that (although there have been improvement in organisation, we were starting from such a low level that any one of us could probably have managed that). If we were going to take such a defensive approach then I would have expected us to be better organised and look more capable at the back, we were a shambles.

I don't like people accepting the fact that we go to the Emirates and lose 4-0. The performance was terrible and despite our injuries and who we were up against, the result is terrible. We aren't talking about a team romping to the championship here, this was 5th placed Arsenal (who will finish 4th). They had scored only 8 goals in their last 8 games, including matches against our relegation rivals West Brom, Sunderland, Spurs and Hull. Going into this game there were actually a lot of people saying things like "I wouldn't be surprised if we pick up a result" and "I think we get a point" (I wasn't one of them). We should have expected a defeat, but not in that manner. They had 21 shots, 9 on target...we had 5 and most of those were free kicks. They had 59% of the ball. I suggest you sit down and watch the full 90 minutes and then maybe you won't be so dismissive of such a terrible performance.

4) For the second season in a row our record against the top 10 is worrying. Last season we were terrible against our rivals for 6th and against the top 4 and this year we have lost virtually every game against the sides currently in the top 10 (Everton away being our only win? I haven't checked the top of the table after today). It's such a consistent problem that there is obviously something to it.

On to the next game and hopefully a win.

[Jan]

1Snip , but he didn't take over a sunken ship and I'm looking for more than just someone able to put together a side capable of beating Hull, Stoke and a clueless Newcastle.

Were you THERE during Ince's reign?? Thought not. We were sunk and rusted, to use the same analogy.

That said, I winced when the team was announced, and it was just a case of "how many". Very relieved it was only £32.50. Still a waste.

And for those who weren't there- Danny Simpson is an aberration. He needs to be dropped off at Red Scum HQ on the way back. I could have played better than him, or Ollson for that matter.

And I hope to god Warnock and Givet aren't too badly hurt. (But if they are would someone go and kick Ollson and Simpson hard enough to make sure they CAN'T play, please. 9 men would have been more use.)

[greco]

The 2nd half was the most one sided I have ever seen in 40+ years of following Rovers. If Arse had a half-decent goalscorer instead of the Bendtner and without Robinson the result would have been well into double figures. Simpson is an abject apology for a footballer. A traffic cone would been more effective. Ollsson proved yet again he is far too weak and indecisive to play at this level or indeed any professional level. Moekena and Kish must be the most inept midfield pairing since the 3rd division days. Neither possesses even a shred of ability on the ball. Dunn would not have been less mobile with a zimmer frame. Robinson was outstanding but criminally exposed time and again. Samba was the only defender to emerge with credit. Pedersen battled hard and showed some quality. Unless there is a quick return to full fitness (not Dunn-style fitness) of players such as Givet, Warnock, Roque I still fear the worst despite the midweek boost. This match proved as did the debacles against Coventry that there are some players in this squad who are earning money under false pretences of being top-flight footballers and I pray they are not at EP next season whichever league Rovers are playing in.

excellent post mate.

the most concerning part, was the lack of depht in the squad. It was almost frightening.

[Brfcrule1]

have to say very disappointed after that display from that game only Samba,Robbo,Diouf,Peds come out of this game with any credit but given the injuries it was as much the only half decent side he could put out having said that Simpson should never be allowed to put on another rovers shirt again ridiculous playing offside everytime effective when done right but Simpson has no idea how to do it hope Givet,Warnolk are not too serious could also do with RSC back for the game against the spanners also given the line up we had to play was always going to be tough going would have been better if we conceded less but they are a world class side anyway luckily results have gone our way now hopefully the lads can concentrate on exacting revenge on Judas Lucas & co COYB!

[Ossydave]

Just seen MGP's blatant dive again, it's just so cringeworthy it's untrue!

[DE.]

MGP, what is he doing? Absolutely pathetic. He needs to cut that out, idiot.

[broadsword]

Oh dear oh dear oh dear. Just seen teh highlights.

Pedersen - has no shame at all

Diouf - lucky to stay on

Simpson - not up for the fight

ollson - what sport is he meant to be playing?

Very bad day at the office.

This squad needs some serious surgery. I just hope we can find enough points to survive now.

[Shabani]

Olsson is not a left back, he can't tackle or mark

Diouf's tackle was disgusting, not happy about it at all

4-0 was an accurate reflection of the game, the only hope we had was mgp's chance @ 1-0

[bazza]

MGP is a disgrace to the Rovers football club. Diouf isn't much better. Both should be fined a weeks wage.

At least Simpson doesn't cheat even though he is c**p.

Sam tells it well. I'm not too worried about today. Let's put it behind us and get on preparing for the next game with a stronger squad.

Does MGP think there are no cameras at the game?

[waynerovers]

embarrasing by pedersen, awful tackle by diouf. Felt bad for robbo, pulled off some good saves but still conceded four thanks to the ineptitude of the full backs

[DE.]

Looking at Diouf's tackle again... really bad. Players like that are the price we pay for being where we are, unfortunately. It was a similar story with Savage, though I think Sav was more over-enthusiastic than malicious. Diouf I'm not so sure about.

[Hughesy]

It was a foregone conclusion today with the mix and match squad, it's just a good thing other results went pretty much all our way.

This was a bonus game, so nothing is lost. West Ham will be a much more winnable and relevant game.

Spot on - For a team of our ability we simply had too many changes and injuries to content with against the 3rd most valuable team in the world.

Missing - Reid, Emerton, RSC, Nelsen

Not fit enough to really play - Tugay, Dunn, Andrews

Carrying knocks - Warnock, Givet

The line up was an insult to the away support that followed the team down there.

Who do you suggest we should of played with the above missing or already carrying knocks?

We got lucky with the other results and there is now just 4pts between 18th - 11th. We need 3 wins to be more or less safe - 7 of our 9 games are all winnable - Only Liverpool & Chelsea to fear in our remaining 9 games.

Lets get on with it and concentrate on next week.

[Commondore]

3) I can argue with Sam's record. I still think he's being given a bit too much credit so far. I'm not "slagging" him off for everything he does, I'm not overawed by what he is done so far or inspired by the type of football we are playing. I think he'll do the job to get and get us to safety, which will obviously be a good achievement, but he didn't take over a sunken ship and I'm looking for more than just someone able to put together a side capable of beating Hull, Stoke and a clueless Newcastle. I hope he turns into a great manager for us and the way he sets us out now won't necessarily be the way we look next September, but I'm just judging what I see so far. I'm well aware of the fact that we have struggled against Arsenal almost every season, but what I also do remember is that we've only got good results against them when we've tried to play (only one real exception springs to mind and that is the 2-1 win where I think we had only one shot on target an Edu own goal and Friedel made something like 20 saves, although the shots on targets and saves could be a bit off). I'll stand by the fact that Allardyce couldn't have asked for a much better run of games when he first took charge of the club and where we find ourselves now is mainly the result of that (although there have been improvement in organisation, we were starting from such a low level that any one of us could probably have managed that). If we were going to take such a defensive approach then I would have expected us to be better organised and look more capable at the back, we were a shambles.

On to the next game and hopefully a win.

Excellent (part of a) post Eddie!

EDIT: Grammar check

[Tango]

QUOTE (Eddie @ Mar 14 2009, 22:40 )

3) I can argue with Sam's record. I still think he's being given a bit too much credit so far. I'm not "slagging" him off for everything he does, I'm not overawed by what he is done so far or inspired by the type of football we are playing. I think he'll do the job to get and get us to safety, which will obviously be a good achievement, but he didn't take over a sunken ship and I'm looking for more than just someone able to put together a side capable of beating Hull, Stoke and a clueless Newcastle. I hope he turns into a great manager for us and the way he sets us out now won't necessarily be the way we look next September, but I'm just judging what I see so far. I'm well aware of the fact that we have struggled against Arsenal almost every season, but what I also do remember is that we've only got good results against them when we've tried to play (only one real exception springs to mind and that is the 2-1 win where I think we had only one shot on target an Edu own goal and Friedel made something like 20 saves, although the shots on targets and saves could be a bit off). I'll stand by the fact that Allardyce couldn't have asked for a much better run of games when he first took charge of the club and where we find ourselves now is mainly the result of that (although there have been improvement in organisation, we were starting from such a low level that any one of us could probably have managed that). If we were going to take such a defensive approach then I would have expected us to be better organised and look more capable at the back, we were a shambles.

On to the next game and hopefully a win.

Excellent (part of a) post Eddie!

EDIT: Grammar check

Not wishing to argue with you too much Eddie, but Sam's had 12 games - about a third of a season - would you not stretch yourself to say that's more than "an easy run of games"? I don't particularly like Sam's brand of football but, given what he tried to do against Fulham, I realise that he's a tactically astute manager who can pick out a side's weaknesses and set his side up accordingly. Today, he had neither the personal nor the commitment from certain players to achieve such a result as he did against Fulham. With a full starting XI we might have got a draw, with a side made up of 80% defenders and crocks we had no chance. The best thing to do is take the positives from Hull, Everton and Fulham and translate them into points against "beatable" oposition for the rest of the season and see us to safety. And, please god, don't renew Simpson's contract, 'cos he couldn't mark a pot of yoghurt.

[john browning]

The first half was a creditable performance. We conceded an unlucky goal and we could have gone in 1-1 if Pedersen had shown more confidence when he broke through in injury time.

In the second half, in spite of all the huffing and puffing from Arsenal, we were in the game until the last 10 minutes. Then we fell apart in a sad reminder of the Ince tactics that caused so much damage in the early part of the season. That's because in the last 25 minutes after going 2-0 down we tried to chase the game by playing the way many posters have argued we should have played from the beginning. It was only then that Arsenal began to get chance after chance that they couldn't put away. Before that we had held our own at 0-1 and had looked capable of snatching an equaliser against the play.

The team selection and the way the game unfolded does tell us a number of things.

1. If Allardyce thought that Khishanishvili was capable of doing a good job againat Arsenal alongside Samba, he would have played him there and left Ooijer at fullback. We can all remember how Khishi can look silky smooth in there against average opposition but has shown that he can be made to look slow and ineffective against real quality. Khishi has also been roasted at fullback in the past.

2. Allardyce was desperate for Warnock to play in midfield. That's why he took a massive bet in playing Givet, a bet he lost. If he had thought Olsson was capable of playing at full back he would have put him there in the first place. When he came on because of Warnock's injury, Olsson proved this (although luckily for us Walcott eventually came off). By the way, I thought that the penalty was very soft, very much an away team decision.

3. Allardyce only played Simpson at full-back because he thought the damage might be less than playing Khishi at the back. I'm not convinced that he was wrong but we will never know. In any case that would have meant playing Dunn, Andrews or Tugay in midfield from the start (see number 5).

4. Playing McCarthy and Roberts together is really a waste of a man in a game where you need to hold the opposition. If you watch the game carefully, Djiouf and Pedersen played a great game trying to support and play off Roberts, and Roberts did a massive job against the odds. Remember that Pedersen is injured also.

5. That brings us to midfield. Warnock's role in midfield is as a mobile force up and down the field, so who did Sam have to pick from in a holding role? I take it that Andrews must be injured even though he was on the bench, but even if he wasn't, he has been totally pilloried on this board as useless. Tugay really can't play 90 minutes against top quality, and he is not a holding player, but there was a plan to bring him on for Khishi that had to be abandoned because of injury.

6. Dunn is not fully fit to play a whole game but he is a positive force that cannot be ignored when there is no one else. He had to be turned to in the 13th minute and the end result was predictable. If Sam had thought that Tugay or Andrews could have done any better he would have put one of them on at this point instead of Dunn.

7. So all Sam had to go to in midfield was Tugay or Andrews and I must admit that I was not feeling confident when the Turk was being prepared to come on. I love him when he is in his pomp. But that doesn't happen against Arsenal away. He really is looking his age and his tackling is often poorly timed. Going down to 10 men is a risk.

8. So McCarthy comes on after 65 minutes, too early for my liking, but it is really a desperate gamble after we go two down. He is an opportunist striker who does not complement Roberts that well. We lose a midfielder and Arsenal run over the top of us.

9. Robinson proved he is a good shot stopper who doesn't dominate his area and does little to engender confidence in those in front of him. OK, we've been spoiled with Brad, but Robbo is not a long-term replacement.

So what other choices did Sam have that could have been expected to produce a better result? Name names and the formation they would play in.

Remember, this is a game we began without Nelsen, Grella, Reid, Emerton and Santa Cruz through injury. During the game we lost Givet and Warnock. What kind of result should you expect?

All the first choice players did at least as well as could have been expected in this game. The crucial issue for the next couple of games is how many first choice players will be fit to take the field. Get used to the idea that our season may depend on Simpson, Olsson. Mokoena and Kishanishvili. Now that's a thought to keep you awake at night.

John

[john browning]

Just a comment on Djiou's tacke on Almunia.

It was somewhat reckless, but he didn't deliberately aim at the player's ankle. The reason being that the ankle was not there to aim at when Djiouf lauched himself. The referee correctly observed that at this point in time, Almunia was not where he was when Djiouf contacted him. In that sense, he was unlucky to be hit and Djiouf was unlucky (or lucky) to hit him with what looked like a perfectly placed blow flush on the ankle.

No doubt if it had been deliberate aim at a static player Djiouf would have walked.

John