[Archived] Ira Scum Cowardly Murdering @@@@@

[jim mk2]

The current show of unity and support from McGuinness and Adams towards the security services is absolutely unprecedented in Northern Ireland

Really ? Adams was quick to deflect blame from the republican murderers in the immediate aftermath of the murder of the British soldiers. I think this shows Adams in his true light rather than the cuddly image of him you are trying to portray.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11...d-soldiers.html

Adams and McGuinness were hardline Ira leaders in the 1970s and have blood on their hands. As stated above, they should have been wiped out 30 years ago.

[Jonnolad]

Really ? Adams was quick to deflect blame from the republican murderers in the immediate aftermath of the murder of the British soldiers. I think this shows Adams in his true light rather than the cuddly image of him you are trying to portray.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11...d-soldiers.html

Adams and McGuinness were hardline Ira leaders in the 1970s and have blood on their hands. As stated above, they should have been wiped out 30 years ago.

Along with a whole host of loyalist leaders by your rationale.

The fact is you don't live in NI and you clearly don't understand the situation over there.

Here's a little quote for you from today in NI:

The UDA leader, Jackie McDonald, praised the Sinn Féin MP and deputy first minister, Martin McGuinness, for his strong condemnation of the killers.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/mar/11/n...-peace-protests

The leader of the UDA praising the former leader of the IRA - imagine that! Do you know who the UDA are? If you did you'd realise how far Northern Ireland and the peace process has come since the dark days of 30 or even 20 years ago. It seems the only ones living in the past are people like you and the contiuity / real IRA!

Incidentally I wouldn't believe anything you read in the Daily Mail - it's just a moronic tabloid that generally just pushes whatever hatred it thinks will sell papers, regardless of what real life situation is - Poles, Jonathan Ross, the BBC, Gerry Adams, Acid House etc; all the devil incarnate as far as the moronic Daily Mail journalists / editors are concerned.

[OhmiBRFC]

I was shocked and dismayed to see the attacks involving both the soliders and the police officer. Hopefully it will not go back to the dark days. Quite worrying aswell as I've got family in Craigavon where the police officer was attacked.

[Nate]

Adams and McGuinness were hardline Ira leaders in the 1970s and have blood on their hands. As stated above, they should have been wiped out 30 years ago.

As much blood as centuries worth of British military killing innocent people around the world? Or has that all been in good cause for Queen and country?

[jim mk2]

Along with a whole host of loyalist leaders by your rationale.

The difference being the loyalists weren't trying to kill British soldiers.

You are conveniently forgetting that the Provisional IRA, for which McGuinness and Adams's party is the political front, was responsible for the vast majority of deaths of innocent people, and serious injury to thousands more, during the 30 years of the Troubles.

Some people living in NI now may prefer to turn a blind eye to terrible IRA atrocities led by Adams and McGuinness but the victims and decent law-abiding people in the province do not forget.

They are also sickened that the people most responsible for lack of peace in NI for years are now in power and lauded for bringing peace to the North when in fact they were the greatest barrier to it.

I am familiar with this particular Ira atrocity. You may see it as living in the past but for many the apparent rehabilitation with their terrorist past of Adams and McGuinness as a political leaders and law-abiding citizens is an affront to humanity.

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/4106...orial_unveiled/

[Rovermatt]

The difference being the loyalists weren't trying to kill British soldiers.

You are conveniently forgetting that the Provisional IRA, for which McGuinness and Adams's party is the political front, was responsible for the vast majority of deaths of innocent people, and serious injury to thousands more, during the 30 years of the Troubles.

Some people living in NI now may prefer to turn a blind eye to terrible IRA atrocities led by Adams and McGuinness but the victims and decent law-abiding people in the province do not forget.

Christ you're talking out of your arse. The loyalists were just as ruthless and cowardly as the IRA in their targeting of any Catholic during the troubles. Suggesting that, somehow, their actions were more palatable because their victims were not soldiers is yet another disgusting contribution on this subject.

[Jonnolad]

The difference being the loyalists weren't trying to kill British soldiers.

The difference being that the loyalists weren't trying to kill British soldiers?!? What difference does that make exactly? I'd personally say that killing an innocent civilian is as least as bad as killing a British soldier. I'm pretty sure the majority of people in NI would see it that way too. But please enlighten me as to why you say that's the all important difference.

Also why is it all important that it was a “British" soldier as well? At the time most republicans would obviously consider active members of the PIRA soldiers as well, so the loyalists (and indeed the UK security services) would be guilty of killing soldiers too from their perspective.

Like I say though, I'm just intrigued as to why you think British soldiers are the be all and end all when it comes to atrocities in NI, as opposed to say civilians.

You are conveniently forgetting that the Provisional IRA, for which McGuinness and Adams's party is the political front, was responsible for the vast majority of deaths of innocent people, and serious injury to thousands more, during the 30 years of the Troubles.

That simply isn't true though. The UVF were responsible for 426 murders in the troubles, the UDA/UFF responsible for 259. Only 23 of this combined figure of 685 murders were republican paramilitaries, the vast majority were innocent civilians. This compares with approximately 600-650 civilians killed by the PIRA. So you absolutely bang wrong in your claim that the PIRA were responsible for the "vast majority of deaths of innocent people" in the troubles.

These figures are from the University of Ulster's Sutton database incidentally - the foremost source on deaths in the troubles:

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/index.html

Some people living in NI now may prefer to turn a blind eye to terrible IRA atrocities led by Adams and McGuinness but the victims and decent law-abiding people in the province do not forget.

They are also sickened that the people most responsible for lack of peace in NI for years are now in power and lauded for bringing peace to the North when in fact they were the greatest barrier to it.

I'm not being funny but who are you to speak for the majority in Northern Ireland? If "they" (as you refer to the "decent law-abiding people in the province") do not forget about the atrocities committed by those led by Adams and McGuinness, then they have a funny way of showing it don't you think? They continually and consistency show their support for them at the voting ballot! Clearly the only logical conclusion is you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and you categorically shouldn't be purporting to represent anyone from NI.

You really would have thought that if anyone had an axe to grind with Adams and McGuinness it would be the leader of the UDA, but clearly that's not the case. How you can therefore continue with your negative appraisal of Adams and McGuinness for the current atrocities when even Jackie McDonald is praising them, and then claim your views represent anyone from NI is beyond me!

I am familiar with this particular Ira atrocity. You may see it as living in the past but for many the apparent rehabilitation with their terrorist past of Adams and McGuinness as a political leaders and law-abiding citizens is an affront to humanity.

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/4106...orial_unveiled/

Here's another atrocity for you; the Greysteel massacre, since you clearly seem to be familiar with atrocities carried out by only one group on one side of the troubles. This was the cold blooded killing of completely innocent and random civilians by loyalist paramilitaries:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greysteel_massacre

Here's another particularly disgusting loyalist group, the Shankill Butchers, who became famous for the late-night abduction, torture and killings (by throat slashing) of random members of the Roman Catholic community. Torture of completely innocent civilians ffs! This group killed upwards of 30 people.

The point I'm getting at here is one that Rovermatt has already stated (so if he'll forgive my plagiarism I'll just quote him): The loyalists were just as ruthless and cowardly as the IRA.

If you can't grasp this you are clearly either bigoted or ignorant. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt though and say it's the latter.

If everyone (the majority in fact) in NI was still just looking to the past like you are then we’d still be where we were 20 years ago. They’ve moved on thank god – it’s a shame people like you can’t do the same.

[Rovermatt]

decent law-abiding people in the province do not forget.

Adams and McGuiness are supported by countless 'decent, law-abiding people'. I myself am an Irish Nationalist (someone in favour of promoting the Irish identity, culture and pro-Irish interests) and as such I would be opposed to Irish Republicanism (a blind commitment to a united Ireland). My family is a staunch SDLP one; my father's views on the IRA and those of my uncles could not be printed here. My great-uncles, God rest them, preached against the Provisionals from the pulpit.

Yet there is nothing actually wrong with Republican politics itself. The atrocities carried out by the IRA may well have been in the pursuit of that goal, but they sit separate from the political movement. Adams and McGuiness are clearly hard-line Republicans yet their politics is very traditional. Suggesting that anyone who identifies with them as Republicans, supporting them at the ballot-box, is somehow less worthy of respect is ludicrous and frankly quite offensive. Adams and McGuiness win by a landslide in every election, yet the vast majority of those who vote for them can be described readily as 'decent law-abiding people'. To support Sinn Fein is not to support the carnage of terrorism.

[blue phil]

I feel slightly uneasy at the way you are expressing your point here Jim. Are you deliberately trying to illicit a reaction from somewhere? These posts don't align with your usual style, can't help wondering why that is.

Well spotted , Tugay .

Desperation tactics from our jimbo in his desire for attention .

He'll be posting links from the Daily Mail next .....

[blue phil]

The difference being that the loyalists weren't trying to kill British soldiers?!? What difference does that make exactly? I'd personally say that killing an innocent civilian is as least as bad as killing a British soldier. I'm pretty sure the majority of people in NI would see it that way too. But please enlighten me as to why you say that's the all important difference.

I think you have to accept that most readers of this forum are British and would class the killing of a British soldier in a manner that many Catholics in NI would not . To many , just a decade or so ago , they would have been a legitimate target . Loyalists did not target them ; therefore they were less odious (for want of a better word) to us than the provo's . It does not mean either were worthy of any respect .

Thankfully that does not appear to be the case now and , like it or not , political expediency dictates that we have to view the likes of Adams and McGuiness as "normal" politicians . They are not . Adams has personally committed the crime of murder ....and yet attracted the votes of tens of thousands of people in the past - and probably even more now .

Maybe Adams and the republicans really have outgrown violence or maybe they have simply accepted the realities of the post 9/11 world and the lack of appetite in the US for supporting terrorosts against the staunch GB allies .

What is certain is that the mood of the people in NI has changed more than once and it can change again . The splinter groups could very well achieve their ends unless they are handled with more skill than the original PIRA when they were just a splinter group . Those Guardian readers who stupidly decry them as just being kids on speed and dope should remember that they are also capable of pulling off atrocities like the Omagh bombing . Hoping it'll all go away if we ignore it doesn't mean it will .....

[blue phil]

Yet there is nothing actually wrong with Republican politics itself. The atrocities carried out by the IRA may well have been in the pursuit of that goal, but they sit separate from the political movement. Adams and McGuiness are clearly hard-line Republicans yet their politics is very traditional. Suggesting that anyone who identifies with them as Republicans, supporting them at the ballot-box, is somehow less worthy of respect is ludicrous and frankly quite offensive. Adams and McGuiness win by a landslide in every election, yet the vast majority of those who vote for them can be described readily as 'decent law-abiding people'. To support Sinn Fein is not to support the carnage of terrorism.

Don't kid yourself , Matt . Sinn Fein was merely the political arm of the IRA . The leadership of the two was interchangeable and indistinguishable . Adams and McGuiness used to deny they were part of the IRA military council ; it's now known they were .

The fact that these two characters used to win elections only proves that the electorate were hardcore enough to vote for such extremists . The same for the loyalists with their representatives. They knew what they were voting for at the time all right !

The electorate on both sides now see an alternative which wasn't always present . But history shows that if times are troubled enough people will vote for radicals . Take a look at the history of the former Yugoslavia - not to mention Germany .

[Rovermatt]

Don't kid yourself , Matt . Sinn Fein was merely the political arm of the IRA .

They were. They are now a genuine political party, whether you like it or not.

[Al]

They were. They are now a genuine political party, whether you like it or not.

So are the BNP.

[colin]

Those Guardian readers who stupidly decry them as just being kids on speed and dope should remember that they are also capable of pulling off atrocities like the Omagh bombing .

Give it up mate. Stop pulling your plonker every time you read a post of mine.

[blue phil]

The point remains , Col .

Coming out with such infantile comments you only invite the contempt you fully deserve .

Maybe you should keep your banality to the boring threads where you're not out of your depth .

Just a suggestion .

They were. They are now a genuine political party, whether you like it or not.

They always were a genuine political party , Matt . That's exactly my point !! And people voted for them then as they do now .

Hopefully both the people and party have changed forever but it has to be continually worked on and not tasken for granted .

[colin]

The point remains , Col .

Coming out with such infantile comments you only invite the contempt you fully deserve .

Maybe you should keep your banality to the boring threads where you're not out of your depth .

Just a suggestion .

Oh dear, your "ad hominem" response leaves a lot unanswered. Perhaps if you would like to adress my points you may garner an intelligent discussion. Until then I bid you farewell.

Cheers

Colin

[Jonnolad]

Don't kid yourself , Matt . Sinn Fein was merely the political arm of the IRA . The leadership of the two was interchangeable and indistinguishable . Adams and McGuiness used to deny they were part of the IRA military council ; it's now known they were .

The fact that these two characters used to win elections only proves that the electorate were hardcore enough to vote for such extremists . The same for the loyalists with their representatives. They knew what they were voting for at the time all right !

The electorate on both sides now see an alternative which wasn't always present . But history shows that if times are troubled enough people will vote for radicals . Take a look at the history of the former Yugoslavia - not to mention Germany .

Adams and McGuiness didn't just use to win elections - they still do. Overwhelmingly so in fact. Sinn Féin is currently the second most popular party in NI.

The loyalist DUP which were around then and are still around now is hardly known for it's soft stance either - it's the most popular party in NI.

Who are these alternatives which you say the electorate now sees, as they don't seem to be voting for them?

Incidentally as to your history aside, it's worth noting that interestingly Hilter and the Nazi's never received a majority vote by the German people in a general election.

[blue phil]

The alternatives are the same parties - they have just reformed themselves somewhat !

As for Hitler he commanded mass support that any political party before or since would gladly settle for . Very few democratic parties in any system gain over 50% of the popular vote .

Perhaps if you would like to adress my points you may garner an intelligent discussion.

Other than rambling on about "dope and speed" you didn't make any points FFS !!

[American]

I take it that most of you won't be celebrating St Pat's on Tuesday?!?

[ABBEY]

not a chance..I'm English.

[Rovermatt]

I don't believe you.

[blue phil]

Well I'm half Irish ...the dodgy side of the family came from Belfast to get away from the loonies - but I refuse to celebrate because it's all fake . You go out and see would-be paddies struggling with their Guinness and putting on a fake accent ...pathetic .

Come to that I don't celebrate St George's Day much either . The real English aren't the demonstrative kind .......

[ABBEY]

I don't believe you.

if you would like to wager £100 on paypal..

[thenodrog]

not a chance..I'm English.

I don't believe you.

What nationality do you think he is then Matt?

[Flopsy]

I think Matt was suggesting that Abster would celebrate St Guiness' day.

Remember, Facebook is watching