[Archived] Knee Trouble? Acl Surgery Anyone?

[Presty On Tour]

When I was 15, I damaged my knee playing football and got sent to A&E where they drained the fluid and put me in plaster for a month. Over the years since then, I have always enjoyed participating in physical sports and extreme activities even though occasionally me knee used to pop in and out and have other issues.

Back in December 2008, I went out on the town celebrating my mates first child. After consuming a large quantity of alcohol, we were on our way to the kebab shop and were messing about and my knee just totally went and locked at an angle. Thinking it would be alright in the morning hopped off to a house party and it just got worse.

Went to A&E the next day and they booked me in for keyhole surgery after seeing many orthopedic specialists and doctors. During the surgery i woke up in the middle of the operation thinking I was in the recovery room. I remember the tunes then bright lights and looked down at god knows what stuck in my knee and was thinking how cool is this. Unfortunately then i had some kind of cold fit, something to do with the anesthetic apparently and had to be pinned down because I was shaking so much while they put me under again.

When I did wake up in the recovery room, the surgeon explained that the damage was miles worse than first thought and they had to remove a ligament and took away 90% of my cartilage. They reckon since i was 15, the first injury never healed properly and i've been causing damage to my knee since.

Stuck in bed all over xmas and new years, i finally started getting about on the crutches and hitting the physio sessions twice a week and doing more training in the local pool and exercises at home. Made great progress and moved to only one crutch and then a few days ago i'm walking unaided.

Physio lady was well impressed with my fitness and determination over the last 2 months and then today I go to the surgeon for a meeting. He shows me some photos of my knee and does some checks where my knee does hurt and clicks occasionally.

He says I require ACL and he knew after the first opp in December it would be needed. Well what was the ###### point of all that hard work in the gym and the pool when they knew this. I'm stuck on a waiting list now and have to go though all this ###### again. Apparently they take a graft and pull one off the crossed ligaments in the center over to replace the one which they removed.

I'm seriously annoyed and that's an understatement. My football career is probably over, I've got plans to watch the darts, a mates stag doo in Ireland and his weeding soon, a birthday bash in Amsterdam and was going to go traveling in Columbia and Mexico in the summer.

I'm probably going to be made redundant now because i've been on the sick the last 3 months and with the credit crunch, crisis, it's all turning into a nightmare.

I remember speaking to a few people in the chat room who have had knee trouble. Just wondered what their experiences were and it is there any help or advice they could give me?

My Auntie and sister are nhs nurses in Blackburn and Birmingham Hospitals respectively. They have said about going private because the waiting lists could be up to 6 months! God knows i'm looking at more months recovery time, so it could be a year till i'm running round kicking a football again which sounds really depressing.

RANT OVER!!!!

[1864roverite]

Now then, pull up a chair and put your ears on. If you want to know about knee trouble then I am the man.

Let me put your mind at rest. You should not wait more than 18 weeks FROM the time that you had your first appointment until the first appointment AFTER the surgery that you have to undergo, that is the new AMBITION for the NHS. That also should include scans and xrays.

I have been through the cleaver since December 2007 when I shattered my cartlidge in the right knee stepping off my miuntain bike at the end of my driveway, my knee locked in and I eventually underwent surgery in January 08 which resulted in ACL surgery being diagnosed. I had a graft from behind my right shin and some ligament was "grown" in my lower back to replace the damaged ligaments in my knee. In September 08 I underwent another explorative operation as again my knee locked - further images were obtained from cameras and xrays and a full diagnosis was made of my knee - basically, it was trucked, a small piece of cartlidge was found wrapped around a floating peice of bone so they unravelled it and pinned it back in place whilst washing out the knee joint of debris. I have now had two mri scans and am to undergo further exploratory surgery in April to try and resolve the reasons why my knee wont bend back more than 130dgs. I am still awaiting the ACL complete surgery until this is done as there appears to be a problem with my knee not sitting right - the damage obviously caused by a lack of cartlidge and still using my knee - they described it as being bone on bone and has grade 3 wear and tear.

keyhole surgery is the easier way of diagnosing problems as the time for waiting lists is shorter than having mri scans and the like.

DONT go private, it costs a fortune. Your looking at £3000 plus for the ACL surgery.

You do have an option to go to a doctor of your choice to try and persuade them to get it done quicker. I did some research on it and took it to the surgeon. They clearly do not want to pay the extra and it appears that because of my research I got an instant response with mri scans and the like.

I now expect to have my knee well and truly sorted out by the end of this year because at times I have been hardly able to walk properly, indeed now I still get some serious pain and am restricted in movement. I still cannot ride a bike as my knee wont bend back that far.

I found that when I attended various surgeries that I was perhaps being fobbed off to junior docs, I demanded to see the main surgeon and this again seems to have had an impact on the results I have got so far.

Best of luck with your knee, it is the worst kind of pain that can reduce you to tears.

If you need any further info give me a pm, i will gladly exchange info with you.

[jim mk2]

He says I require ACL and he knew after the first opp in December it would be needed. Well what was the ###### point of all that hard work in the gym and the pool when they knew this. I'm stuck on a waiting list now and have to go though all this ###### again. Apparently they take a graft and pull one off the crossed ligaments in the center over to replace the one which they removed.

Knee surgery and the rest / recuperation required afterwards leads to enormous muscle wastage so your hard work in the gym won't be wasted and will help in your recovery.

I had posterior ligament surgery some years ago that was not entirely successful but techniques have improved since then. Good luck !

[Presty On Tour]

I apologize for my first post, just letting out some frustration and anger.

It's not the surgery or the physical pain that i will suffer, it's being laid up in bed again and using those damn crutches. I missed so many outings and events over the last 3 months and the target of getting fit for my future plans have been blown out of the water. For anyone who's been on crutches, you know you can't carry anything and travel at the same time which drove me mad.

I have no idea when the surgery will take place yet and i'm dreading explaining this to my employers. I just want it to be done now and get on with it.

1864Roverite, you have certainly been through the wars! How do you cope with it all?

Where you said about the bone on bone, i think that is what my clicking noise is. With only about 10% cartilage left and no ligament on one side, the bones must be exposed to make contact.

Jim, I've read what you said on a few websites as well. Apparently if you can strengthen the knee area, especially the quads, the recovery time is much shorter so at least that's in my favor.

[ihtd]

I have had serious knee surgery done since i were 5 years old. When i were 5 i somehow got septic arthritis that went undiagnosed for 9weeks by my GP.I'd visited him with my parents so i've been told by them around 2 times a week for the entire time i were in pain. I could barely walk, my patella had swollen to the size of a large grapefruit (bare in mind i were 5 years old) and i was in constant agony and the GP said i must of fallen in the playground and banged it. 9weeks later my parents ended up having to take me to A&E as i kept passing out. Turns out the infection hadn't only taken over the my entire knee joint, it were destroying everything around it and was pretty much poisoning me to death from septecameia(probs spelt wrong). Should it of carried on and not be treated like it were, i wouldn't be sat at university typing this now . From what my parents have told me (i was so drugged up on pain relief i really do not remember much from that time) , i was that i were in hospital for 16weeks, in a wheelchair when i got out of hospital 8 weeks and then spent 6 weeks using a child zimmerframe. Took a further 12 weeks of constant physiotherapy before i were allowed to go back to primary school.

Since then the GP has been struck off for malpractice and my parents thought for some sort of compensation as my dad had to stop working the time i were in hospital and during my physio/wheelchair, (he slept in the chair next to my bed for the entire time i were there he said, also said i used to like watching The Police files i think with Leslie Nielsen from my hospital bed ) So by the age of 6 i'd already had 2 knee operations leaving me with one normal looking knee and the left knee doesn't even look like i have a real patella.

EDIT-About the clicking noise, i have had that since i were i had my first two operations as a child, it sounds absolutley awful now at 21, i am dreading to think what i will sound like when i hit 40. It makes my girlfriend cringe everytime she hears it do it.its not like just a click, its like a series of clicks as i flex and extend my knee.

Presty, if you can do, get inside a gym and strengthen the entire area around it before the surgery, you'll reduce your recovery time significantly if you can do. Just don't do anything that will make it worse though.

I finally started walking again properly just before my 7th birthday.

I were told by doctors at my regular check-ups that i'd never play sport to a high level, yet in high school i'd represented Yorkshire at basketball, played in GB's Under 16's twice, and played regular basketball for Doncaster and Hull until i were 18. By this point, i had according to Dr Jose Bunola of Hull Nuffield Hospital (one of the best surgeons and Dr's i have ever met) the most scar tissue and ripped cartilidge in and around my knee joint that he'd seen in many years due to the awkward shape of my knee and the fact that some of the infection that i had in it as a kid had meant that my patella was eroded leaving the connective tissues floating. Basketball had only served to make this worse and he also found numerous micro-fractures around the patella and he was wondering how i'd managed to play basketball pretty much daily for 2/3 hours and compete. After that i were meant to be on crutches for 6/8 weeks but i pushed myself harder i probably should of seen as i got a ear-full of Dr Bunola when i turned up not on my crutches 4 weeks afterwards to see him, but it felt stronger than it had been while i wasn't using them. Turns out as you'd think, he were correct because as soon as i were walking back to my dads car, i got a severe, sharp shooitng pain going right through my knee. Anyway after that i didn't touch a basketball for a long time, ended up playing other sports on and off just to try and get some fitness back and get all the muscle back that i'd lost on my left leg. I remember when i played at Ewood with Ricky in May 2007, i were just getting back to somesort of fitness and then some stupid ginger tw@t decided to tackle me quite roughly from behind and then it were back to square one. I ended up hobbling into the changing room and getting a taxi back to Bolton without getting chance to thank him for fulfilling one of my childhood dreams which i'll forever be greatful for.

It has only been this season that i have got back on the basketball court due to psychological aspects of all the knee surgeries, it is hard knowing that you'll never play to the level you could have or do the things you once were able to do but once you accept it and go on to achieve something else, it's something you can live with. 4 years ago, i thought i would be playing basketball somewhere in the Euroleague and so did many of my coaches, now i'm happy just to win the BUCS Northen 2A conference with my university. Got to be when i think about the fact i could be dead or severely disabled because of an incompetent GP.

Sorry this were so long-winded, just wanted to share my experiences of knee surgery, i'm sure i'll be in for some more in the coming years with the way i push myself to levels i probably shouldn't physically. I still play basketball to the same intensity i have always played it when i actually play, i just can't play 3 matches and train 6 days a week like i used to be able to, knee just doesn't recover well enough. It gets really stiff the night after a match to the point i cannot sleep as it is so uncomfortable. But to me it is worth it as i know this won't last forever, i might as well get the sport in while i can.

Anyway if anyone wants to see my odly shaped knee (or lack of) anytime you'll probably see me around Ewood, just come over and ask.

[thenodrog]

I suffered cruciate ligament damage at 15 and had it actually diagnosed at 53 when I required further surgery! At 15 I was x-Rayed and put in a splint for a monthe or so. As Jim says it resulted in a thinner leg ever after. It was on my 'swinger' and though my knee was always unreliable and weak I played regular football at decent standard until I packed up after cartiledge surgery in my early 30's.

If you can play on then play on. You'll have plenty of time retired later.

[jim mk2]

I

Jim, I've read what you said on a few websites as well. Apparently if you can strengthen the knee area, especially the quads, the recovery time is much shorter so at least that's in my favor.

Keep doing the exercises, several times a day, day after day, week after week. It will pay off.

My PCL injury happened in my early 30s and it was an enormous blow at the time as I wanted to carry on playing football forever. I considered myself too old at that time to make a comeback but looking back I was wrong and should have given it another go.

My advice would be to start playing again but only when you are fully confident that your leg is strong enough.

[ihtd]

Its the confidence part that is the biggest thing to get over after knee surgery. I wish i'd of believed in myself a bit more of my last knee surgery. As so as the surgeon gives the all clear Presty i would get back into the swing of things straight away, working to a rehab programme. Knowing it is stronger than it was before should give you the confidence to get back to where you left off but there is always a little doubt in the back of your head thinking that if you this or do that, that you'll end up back on the surgeons table. Its a nasty thing to try and get over.

[I_saw_Batty_score]

ACL surgery - two options they use the patella tendon or a piece of hamstring. I had the patella tendon one becuase the sucess ratio is better but the recovery is longer. Realistically you're looking at 6 to 12 months before you can play again. I was told 12 but was back in 6. I did physio and gym work 6 days a week. I was told to start moving it again as soon as possible - my surgeon beleived in this anyway so was keen also.

Meanwhile get yourselve a good knee support. I got one with metal bands down the outside and inside of the knee. I wore this whilst waiting for my op so I didn't cause further damage.

Good luck.

[Biddy]

I had ACL keyhole surgery a a few years back now and the recovery time was not bad at all. They had me up and walking the next morning (on crutches) and I was back driving and at work a month later (granted I sit on my fat ass all day at work).

It actually took longer for the crappy NHS to diagnose it than recovery. I had the injury for over 2 years which first happened playing football on astroturf. My knee just felt to pop out and I hit the floor. Managed to drive home but my mate took me to A&E where they x-ray'd it, said there was no broken bones and to simply put ice on it and see the doctor. Doctor sent me to physio. 4 weeks later, tried playing football again. First attempted kick of the ball and I hit the deck. Went to doctor, more physio.

Then over 2 years, my knee felt weak and seemed to almost pop out on doing normal stuff like getting in and out of the car (twisting) and any other activities. If finally went properly again whilst playing badminton so I went back to the doctor and demanded to be referred. The consultant took one look, twisted my knee over his leg and proclaimed my ACL was probably ruptured and I had probably worn down my cartilidge due to it.

Luckily I had private medical care through work so was in hospital within a couple of weeks and it was all sorted. As ihtd says though, I wish I had gone straight back out and played football. To this day I still don't like the idea of playing football and twisting my knee. I can still remember exactly how it felt each time the knee popped out of joint. That is all just a mental thing as the doctors said I could have gone back to football after about 6 months. They did say I would never be professional though, but looking at my weight I think they were just taking the ######.

[roversmum]

Jim is right about the exercise. However, I'd recommend a good (private) physio, possibly specialising in sport if you want to still do sport. Miss Roversmum suffered terribly with her knee having three operations between the age of 15 and 18. She is doing a degree in ballet and the knee again started with problems pretty soon after she started her course. They sent her to BAPAM and on seeing their consultant was told none of the operations had been necessary and she was referred to a specialist physio who said the knee was weak and devised exercises to strengthen. Warming up before dance/exercise is also crucial and she needs extra time for this. Her knee is now much stronger and seems to be holding out despite an extremely busy ballet (including pointe work) schedule.

[MCMC1875]

Jim is right about the exercise. However, I'd recommend a good (private) physio, possibly specialising in sport if you want to still do sport. Miss Roversmum suffered terribly with her knee having three operations between the age of 15 and 18. She is doing a degree in ballet and the knee again started with problems pretty soon after she started her course. They sent her to BAPAM and on seeing their consultant was told none of the operations had been necessary and she was referred to a specialist physio who said the knee was weak and devised exercises to strengthen. Warming up before dance/exercise is also crucial and she needs extra time for this. Her knee is now much stronger and seems to be holding out despite an extremely busy ballet (including pointe work) schedule.

*Edit*

[RoyRover]

I have real problems with my knees, but nothing like what some people here have gone through. I have really bad interior knee pains, which comes about by the fact that I'm quite flat footed, which results in my knee joints turning in, so whenever I run, the knee joint is bending smoothly but rather grinding against my patella. I have lived with this since I was about 15. There was a point when I was about 17 or 18 that I was in excruciating pain and my parents spent a lot of money on me getting physio and in soles fit for my shoes, so that my arches of my feet would be raised, straightening out my posture and have less grind on my knees. This didn't really help and basically had to stop playing sports for a sustained period of time to try and let the pain and swelling in my knees subside. This helped quite a bit and after a while I was able to play sport again.

I went to University of Ulster in Belfast and joined their Gaelic football team. This is an elite program, where some of the best gaelic players in Ireland come to play. As such, the intensity of training and matches started to take its toll and before long I was back on a different physios table. She determined that the insoles that I was fitted with and which I had discarded some time before because they weren't helping me, were inadequate and not enough was done to find out what the problem was. Basically, I was able to train on grass and to stay clear of running on roads or any other hard surfaces. This did indeed help and even though I was still in some discomfort, I was able to continue playing gaelic football. In my third year of university, I went to study graphic design at Virginia Commonwealth University, in Richmond, Virginia. While there I played football four or five times a week, on astro turf, carpet and hard wood floors without a problem. I was friends with the guys on the VCU soccer team (one of which now looks like he will be playing for the Chicago Fire, another who played for Holland at underage level along with the likes of Van Persie, Van Der Vaart and Sneijder and ones who played with Vasco Da Gama and Sao Paulo) and they used to invite to play with them and even in these high intensity games, my knees held up fine. I thought that I was over the worst of my knee problems.

Coming back home, I was in pretty good shape, losing a lot of weight from playing so much football in the heat of Virginia. When I rejoined my university gaelic team and my club team, my knees weren't giving me that many problems and I did ok for the rest of the season. Ever so often I would experience some pain and discomfort, but nothing too serious. Last year, my club team got a new manager, who is a total lunatic when it comes to fitness and intensity of training. After a few weeks of him, my knees really started to give me problems again and in the end I had to go for more physio. From these sessions, I discovered what a bad state not only were my knees in, but also my back and neck (which would give me trouble after games and training). I had new in soles fitted for my shoes and football boots, which along with some intensive physio, really helped and I was relatively pain free for the rest of the season. However, when pre-season started in January, I could barely get out of chair because my knees were so bad. I have done very little training and for the past few weeks my team been training in my old grammar school's sports hall and gym, where my manager is P.E teacher. I haven't been able to do any of the high intensity stuff, because running on the hard floor is too painful. Instead, I've been doing work on the bike and cross trainer in the gym, as it works the joints, without the impact of my body weight shuddering through them if I were to be running. Last Sunday we had training under flood lights on grass and I was able to take part, because it was soft enough that my knees weren't being torn up. This was the first time I had done anything like this in months.

Hopefully whenever the clocks go back and so we have enough light in the evenings to start training outside again, I will be able to start taking more part in training. There are exercises which can be done to help this problem, but I just have to discipline myself enough to do them consistently enough, that they will make a difference.

[Presty On Tour]

Admission this afternoon, surgery tomorrow morning, released Wednesday, pdc darts in Cardiff Thursday!

[1864roverite]

Good luck mate.

I have been back to my surgeon for a latest update and have discovered that both sides of my knee have sufficient cartlidge to allow "PICKS" surgery on my knee to try and regenerate the catlidge growth through the middle of my knee.

This involves my knee being forced apart and a series of metal pins forced into the central bone structure to make it bleed, the knee will then be strapped up for 3 weeks to ensure the blood contributes to cartlidge regrowth.

Sounds painful but is clearly a better option than further major surgery.

[tcj_jones]

Good luck Presty, really hope it goes well for you. Not that I've ever experienced knee problems, but I can empathize with what you're going through.

I've just been diagnozed with a prolapsed L5-S1 disc in my back, which is pressing on the nerve roots leading up to my shoulder and down into my leg. This has caused a trapped nerve in my shoulder, which is preventing me from swimming, and thus from regaining any fitness, and also from gripping properly. I'm 23 and have Spondylosis (degenerative arthritis) and Scheuerman's diesease (bent spine). I've been in pretty much constant pain for over a year now and it's worse currently than it ever has been. I've been told I'll never play football again, amongst other things.

If I were a couch potato, this wouldn't affect me an awful lot. As it is, however, I am one of the most active, sporty people you'll ever meet and football has always been a massive part of my life. I get the same impression with you so, again, I can empathize.

My experience is that getting a good physio is vital and, for this, private is always better IMO, as they have more time generally to dedicate to you. Research it. My first physio was dealing with masaging pressure points further up my back and giving me simple torso strengthening exercises, when I actually had a SLIPPED DISC!. Never did she realise this. My next physio realised I had a slipped disc immediately, but never thought to actually tell me, just briefly mentioning something about a small bulge on one of my discs and passing it off as something very minor. It never even occured to me to get an MRI, because I didn't think it was serious. Within two days of getting one, I had my diagnosis. Months and months of false hope, when I could have been coming to terms with this. I will now be seeing a new physio based at my Orthopaedic surgeon's hospital.

Be sure to keep us updated on your progress

[andyman]

i need to add that i have had knee problems my whole life, not like what other people have mentioned, my knees would twist when i even try to run, my whole life i have had to live with the disability of my knees giving way at any time, its not been as bad as when i was a kid, that was the worst, my knees would twist and i would black out and i would be concused wondering where i was. I had to give up martial arts and even though i go on the treadmil at the gym, i can only walk and not run. I think i may have had it worse than anyone.

[Eddie]

Good luck presty.

Tripped and collapsed on my knee a couple of years ago and did some decent damage to it, although I don't think it was ever properly diagnosed. It happened just before the football season when I was heading back into academy football, pretty much ended my hopes of being the next Pele. I can now play at pretty much the same level, but my knee still feels weaker. Terrible area of your body to hurt.

[Presty On Tour]

The surgeon was immense, on the way to surgery he said he said he had done over 200 knee opps like mine before so there was no need to worry. When I woke up from the anesthetic he said the operation went well and I can expect my knee to become around 180% stronger than my normal knee.

Apparently he pulled my hamstring ligaments through and wrapped it around the knee about 4 times and had a few pins added for good measure. Although the knee is really swollen and bruised right now, it does feel good. It's going to be a lot of physio but it's going to be worth it.

Although the surgery was excellent, I have to say the patient care in the wards is an absolute disgrace imo. Some of the things I have seen this weekend are truly disturbing. I won't go into details but in the end I discharged myself!

[Oklahoma]

Hope you recover fast and totally, Presty.

I got injured on the 14th of March, while playing rugby. Torn knee. I did play the last 10 minutes of the game but the knee was really weak.

Since we have insurance, I went directly to the Insurance's hospital (19/03) and the doctor scheduled an MRI(22/03). On the 26th, i went to the doctor again to see what the MRI revealed.

I had torn my right knee LCL (lateral collateral ligament) and the ACL. I didn't need surgery for the first but for the second it was needed. 6 months to recover...

I went into surgery on the 8th of April, though it could be earlier.

It went well. I was explained that the LCL was put back together and a tendon was removed from my thigh muscle to replace the ACL.

I stayed in the hospital for 4 days. On the second day, i started exercises to recover and to drain blood.

I went to the doctor a few days later and I have had physical therapy on a daily basis.

So far, I am recovering well but I know I still have a lot ahead of me.

My right leg is very weak, still have to work hard on the gym to recover...

[Guest Wen Y Hu]

Presty,

How's the recovery going? Hopefully as well as can be expected at this very early stage. Just wonderin' whether your latest post in the Boiling Spuds thread is any indication of your progress?!

Footy, skiing, motorbikes, falling off motorbikes... After nearly half a century my knees creak and crack all the time. So take care of them - get them strong and keep them strong, and live life to the max.

Good luck to others on the thread, too. It's quite something to read what other people go through in life.

Best wishes,

weny

[Presty On Tour]

Thanks Weny, it's going alright.

The district nurse has done a few home visits and I went to the wound clinic on Tuesday where they said the stitches can be taken out next week. There's now 7 lines of stitches on my knee and the ladies love a few scars!

Been doing the stretching and basic exercises at home and have my 1st physio session next week, the afternoon of the morning I have the stitches out. Hopefully I'll get a decent one that knows what they are doing and will push me hard. Going to crack up the millage in the pool most evenings then because hydrotherapy is excellent imo and I'm very lucky to be comfortable in water being a qualified lifeguard and regular surfer.

I'll have 3 weeks to get myself off my crutches before we sail of on the ferry to Ireland for my mates stag doo and there's no chance I'm going on tour with crutches.

[ihtd]

I'll have 3 weeks to get myself off my crutches before we sail of on the ferry to Ireland for my mates stag doo and there's no chance I'm going on tour with crutches.

Stay on your crutches for as long as they tell you to please mate, i came off mine 2 weeks out of the 6 that i was meant to be on them for in 2006 and i've regretted it ever since, the surgery was pretty much undone by my stupidity. I didn't want to go out on my birthday on crutches and it was one of the most stupid things i've done. You'll get plenty of attention on them anyway especially with the scars for the ladies

Hope the knee heals up quickly for you, well quick enough for you to defo not need the crutches

[Guest Wen Y Hu]

Sound advice, ihtd. A friend's stag-do may only happen once in your life, Presty, but you really do want your knees in the best possible shape for the rest of your life.

And as ihtd says, if you can't pull when you're on crutches...

[Oklahoma]

Definitely, keep the crutches as long as you are told too.

I've been keeping mine for 5 weeks now.

Next friday, I'm going to the doctor and I'll see what he says...