[Archived] Burglar Killed

[1864roverite]

Paul New yrs Day, I awoke at lunchtime to find my home had been burgled, 2 muppets had got in and had stolen approx 1k of electrical items that we jnew about. Having had a seriously negative response from the old bill I did my own enquiries and identified 1 of the two offenders. I confronted him at hios home address and readily identified number 2 burglar who was with him. I confronted them both out and then whole hell broke loose for 27 minutes until the Police finally arrived at the house. Both o them had access to "weapons" but it didnt stop me from doing what was right, both were nicked and I got all of my property back and more thaat I didnt even know had gone missing.

These 2 little junkies had invaded my home and been through my property and god was I angry.

If my wife had not been present when I confronted them I most certainly would have leathered the crap out of them and I most certainly would have contemplated not even bothering the old bill such was their lack of response because it was a public holiday !

I agree with your comments mate, the circumstances would prevent many from confronting burglars. At the time though (if it ever happens) guage your reaction when considering protecting your own. when a man gets angry he has an inbuilt sense of protection. Most burglars would cack themselves in the knowledge the houseowner is in and would escape, its the druggies that stay and hope to get away with it, and we have previously discussed druggies and know what we think of them !

[tony gale's mic]

When did I mention killing or gun ownership ? When did I mention taking a life ? Hardly horsesh*t at all if you read the post properly.

Anyone who breaks into my property or enters unlawfully whilst members of my family are asleep is going down, with more than reasonable force (if they are lucky)

Well I'm not so sure what you saw as being so naive about my original post. All I was doing was agreeing that we should wait to see what the facts were in this case and whether the homeowner was under direct threat before he stabbed the intruder. This was as opposed to some people immediately saying he was right to do so.

If the homeowner wasn't under any clear threat, if the intruders were trying to get away rather than attack him, then I sincerely hope he goes down for a good amount of time.

[thenodrog]

If the homeowner wasn't under any clear threat, if the intruders were trying to get away rather than attack him, then I sincerely hope he goes down for a good amount of time.

Stupid statement if ever there was one. You are assuming that the homeowner was rational as well as cool calm and collected. The fact that a panic attack like this may happen should be deemed an occupational hazard by both the burglar and the law. And lets make no mistake 'panic attack' is an accurate term. I once mistakenly thought there was an intruder in my house and I can tell you that as I came down the stairs in the semi dark the hammer I had in my hand coupled with the adrenalin coursing through my veins would not have allowed me to give any imagined burglar(s) just a slight tap using 'reasonable force' unless in the unlikely scenario that he/they were lying face down on the ground begging for surrender.

If as in the Tony Martin / Fred Barras case the law refuses to recognise the combined effects that a large dose of fear, anger and adrenalin has on the human mind then it truly is an ass. Martin received all manner of death threats from the Gypsy community with the police and the law standing idly by seeming to act almost in sympathy with the recently bereaved. Given Barrass's record at the time of hundreds of burglaries they should by rights have struck him a bloody medal in respect of saving future law abiding people from getting robbed or attacked by the snivelling little bstard and his evil mate Brendan Fearon. It needs to be understood and recognised by both law breakers and law makers that rule number 1 is that if you play with fire then you'll likely get burned.

[Hughesy]

I'm not really in favour of guns in every house.

And those are not the worst case scenario either, just imagine ...

d. You are on the stairs confronted by evil scum with your wife and small kids upstairs and defenceless if you are overpowered? You'd want that gun then for sure.

Exactly. Im not saying you should just have a licence of shoot on site in your own property, but maybe a law as to when and how you can use it. Like someone suggested, aiming in a not life threating area.

True, I have to admit I wouldn't be so inclined to start rucking if there's 2 or 3 and they're big boys, but how often does that happen? Burglars normally work alone, no?

But agreed, it's all very easy to say how you'd do X, Y and Z if you were burgled, buit you might feel a bit different if it really happened.

Trust me its an awful feeling just to see someone try it. Adrenaline kicks in, and then anything can happen.

As for alone - no they dont usually mate. That just adds to the fear factor and adrenaline.

An old guy I know was getting done over during the night, the guy was around 75 at the time and could see 3 of them at the end of his loby in 2 different rooms - down to pure fear he went to bed and closed his eyes. That is not fair. The poor guy could have died of a heartattack or something.

[tony gale's mic]

Stupid statement if ever there was one. You are assuming that the homeowner was rational as well as cool calm and collected. The fact that a panic attack like this may happen should be deemed an occupational hazard by both the burglar and the law. And lets make no mistake 'panic attack' is an accurate term. I once mistakenly thought there was an intruder in my house and I can tell you that as I came down the stairs in the semi dark the hammer I had in my hand coupled with the adrenalin coursing through my veins would not have allowed me to give any imagined burglar(s) just a slight tap using 'reasonable force' unless in the unlikely scenario that he/they were lying face down on the ground begging for surrender.

If as in the Tony Martin / Fred Barras case the law refuses to recognise the combined effects that a large dose of fear, anger and adrenalin has on the human mind then it truly is an ass. Martin received all manner of death threats from the Gypsy community with the police and the law standing idly by seeming to act almost in sympathy with the recently bereaved. Given Barrass's record at the time of hundreds of burglaries they should by rights have struck him a bloody medal in respect of saving future law abiding people from getting robbed or attacked by the snivelling little bstard and his evil mate Brendan Fearon. It needs to be understood and recognised by both law breakers and law makers that rule number 1 is that if you play with fire then you'll likely get burned.

If people are trying to run away from you, then there's absolutely no excuse for stabbing them. It then changes from an act of defence to an act of aggression. Any sentence should reflect the circumstances obviously, but rational, calm and collected or not, I think there's fundamentally something wrong with you if you can stab someone to death on impulse if there's no threat to your life. Beating the crap out of them/hitting them with a blunt object may well come under a natural reaction, but stabbing someone most certainly doesn't.

Like I said, we shall see what the circumstances here are before commenting on this particular case.

[Hughesy]

1 punch could kill.. just like one stab. Its just unfortunate.

Ok tony - someone has just been in your house, gone through all your personal possesions, taken say £2k cash and a load of goods, inc sentimental ones - you see him in your living room - what would you do? Let him do a runner and do nothing???

[tony gale's mic]

1 punch could kill.. just like one stab. Its just unfortunate.

Ok tony - someone has just been in your house, gone through all your personal possesions, taken say £2k cash and a load of goods, inc sentimental ones - you see him in your living room - what would you do? Let him do a runner and do nothing???

What a total load of rubbish. How can you POSSIBLY compare a punch to a stab?!

If I was in that situation I'm sure I'd chase him. I sure as hell wouldn't stab him though.

[dave birch]

What a total load of rubbish. How can you POSSIBLY compare a punch to a stab?!

If I was in that situation I'm sure I'd chase him. I sure as hell wouldn't stab him though.

There have been a number of instances here where ONE punch has killed a person. It has usually been that ONE punch has floored the guy, he's cracked his head on the pavement and died as a result.

Before you argue that it was the hit on the pavement that caused death, courts have already dismissed that argument. So in comparing a punch to a stab, if it has the same effect i.e. death, could you explain the difference?

[tony gale's mic]

There have been a number of instances here where ONE punch has killed a person. It has usually been that ONE punch has floored the guy, he's cracked his head on the pavement and died as a result.

Before you argue that it was the hit on the pavement that caused death, courts have already dismissed that argument. So in comparing a punch to a stab, if it has the same effect i.e. death, could you explain the difference?

Because punching someone is an everyday occurence in most towns and cities. All it requires is a temper and a pair of fists. A lot of us will have punched people so to punch a burglar would be fairly natural. And most of the time it doesn't do a great deal of damage.

Stabbing someone is very different.

Hell, why not extend that one punch one stab analogy to one gunshot? Clearly they're all the same things...

[Hughesy]

What a total load of rubbish. How can you POSSIBLY compare a punch to a stab?!

If I was in that situation I'm sure I'd chase him. I sure as hell wouldn't stab him though.

My point was that if you are prepared to punch then you are just running the same risk of death. Many a person gets stabbed but doesnt die, just like a punch. The guy could have punched the scab that was robbing him and killed him just the same. The fact he choose to use a knife rather than his fists shouldnt be punished - he might not know how to punch/ or he might be stap.

The guy who stabbed this scab only stabbed him once, does that mean he intended to kill? Id say not - multiple stab wounds would of suggested differently. So surely 1 stab wound has to be looked at in a different way to multiple? If you get what I mean.

[tony gale's mic]

My point was that if you are prepared to punch then you are just running the same risk of death. Many a person gets stabbed but doesnt die, just like a punch. The guy could have punched the scab that was robbing him and killed him just the same. The fact he choose to use a knife rather than his fists shouldnt be punished - he might not know how to punch/ or he might be stap.

The guy who stabbed this scab only stabbed him once, does that mean he intended to kill? Id say not - multiple stab wounds would of suggested differently. So surely 1 stab wound has to be looked at in a different way to multiple? If you get what I mean.

But that's completely and utterly false. You are god knows how many times more likely to die from a stab wound than from a punch. The question of intent is very different for a stab than for a punch.

The fact he chose to use a knife SHOULD be punished. If he didn't have a knife to hand but shot him instead - would we say he shouldn't be punished for using a gun? Didn't know how to punch?!

Like I said if he was acting in self defence, if there was a realistic chance of a threat on his life, then none of this applies. But if he chased the guy down and stabbed him then he full well deserves to go down for it. Any argument that he might have used his knife because punching wasn't an option is null and valid - if the burglar was fleeing there was no need to do either.

[dave birch]

And most of the time it doesn't do a great deal of damage.

Stabbing someone is very different.

Hell, why not extend that one punch one stab analogy to one gunshot? Clearly they're all the same things...

If a stabbing results in someone dieing, and a punch results in someone dieing, the results are the same, are they not? There can be as much malicious intent with a punch, as with a knife, as with a gun.

[tony gale's mic]

If a stabbing results in someone dieing, and a punch results in someone dieing, the results are the same, are they not? There can be as much malicious intent with a punch, as with a knife, as with a gun.

No offence but it kind of blows my mind that I'm explaining this...unless you're deliberately being facetious...

A gunshot is more likely to kill someone than a stabbing which in turn is much more likely to kill someone than a punch.

I think anyone would know this instinctively. Unless you're highly trained in martial arts, most people can't kill someone with one punch on purpose. It's a hell of a lot easier to kill someone with a stab wound, as long as you get the right place. It's even easier (so long as you're at close range and are familiar with using a gun) to aim a shot at someones head/thorax and kill them.

So no, there isn't the same intent with a punch as with a stabbing or a shooting. Unless you punch them repeatedly and extremely hard in the right places or are very lucky/unlucky with the consequences of hitting them once.

[thenodrog]

From a quick google............

"Stress and Adrenaline

When you are in a competitive environment or are in an environment in which you are being evaluated, adrenaline may enter your bloodstream. This has the following positive and negative effects on your body:

Positive Effects:

Adrenaline causes physiological arousal

It causes alertness

It prepares the body for explosive activity

Negative Effects:

It inhibits judgement

It interferes with fine motor control, and makes executing complex skills difficult.

You will experience the preparatory flow of adrenaline into your body typically as 'Butterflies in your stomach'.

In sports such as shooting where fine motor control is important, adrenaline may be a negative factor. However in sports like sprinting or power lifting, where explosive activity is required, adrenaline may be useful in generating optimum performance. "

Adrenalin production must vary in different individuals, so

1. who is to say how hard a persons inexperienced punch can increase when varying levels of adrenalin are being produced?

2. Inhibits judgement? Like picking up the most dangerous weapon possible in a burglary situation? Seriously TGM if there's someone coming up your stairs in the dark would you pick up a loaded shotgun, a cavalry sword thats hanging on a beam, a bedroom stool or a feather duster when the adrenalin is kicking in? I'd suggest that you'd follow the above order, in fact you'd be stupid not to.

3. It's probably open to speculation that fear and adrenalin lead to the balance of the mind being temporarily affected. So who can say how much each individual is affected.

Responsibility imo must always be on the thief.

[tony gale's mic]

From a quick google............

"Stress and Adrenaline

When you are in a competitive environment or are in an environment in which you are being evaluated, adrenaline may enter your bloodstream. This has the following positive and negative effects on your body:

Positive Effects:

Adrenaline causes physiological arousal

It causes alertness

It prepares the body for explosive activity

Negative Effects:

It inhibits judgement

It interferes with fine motor control, and makes executing complex skills difficult.

You will experience the preparatory flow of adrenaline into your body typically as 'Butterflies in your stomach'.

In sports such as shooting where fine motor control is important, adrenaline may be a negative factor. However in sports like sprinting or power lifting, where explosive activity is required, adrenaline may be useful in generating optimum performance. "

Adrenalin production must vary in different individuals, so

1. who is to say how hard a persons inexperienced punch can increase when varying levels of adrenalin are being produced?

2. Inhibits judgement? Like picking up the most dangerous weapon possible in a burglary situation? Seriously TGM if there's someone coming up your stairs in the dark would you pick up a loaded shotgun, a cavalry sword thats hanging on a beam, a bedroom stool or a feather duster when the adrenalin is kicking in? I'd suggest that you'd follow the above order, in fact you'd be stupid not to.

3. It's probably open to speculation that fear and adrenalin lead to the balance of the mind being temporarily affected. So who can say how much each individual is affected.

Responsibility imo must always be on the thief.

I know plenty about the effects of adrenaline on the body thanks theno.

I've repeatedly said there's a clear difference if there was the possibility of the threat on your life to if the robber was running away fleeing, which is why we need to see exactly what was going on before we make a judgement. IF the robber was fleeing then these excuses will not apply. Adrenaline is a "fight or flight" hormone, it's an evolutionary mechanism and if there's a percieved threat on our safety these mechanisms can kick in and things can be done in self defence. However if a robber is fleeing then this no longer counts as an excuse.

Adrenaline can't make your punches harder. Trust me. It increases heart rate and stroke volume, thus making people more able to perform activities of strength at optimum levels for longer, but it doesn't make individual punches harder, until you're doing them for long enough to actually want to beat someone to death anyway. These comparisons with punching and stabbing/shooting are just a little embarassing.

[dave birch]

No offence but it kind of blows my mind that I'm explaining this...unless you're deliberately being facetious...

A gunshot is more likely to kill someone than a stabbing which in turn is much more likely to kill someone than a punch.

I think anyone would know this instinctively. Unless you're highly trained in martial arts, most people can't kill someone with one punch on purpose. It's a hell of a lot easier to kill someone with a stab wound, as long as you get the right place. It's even easier (so long as you're at close range and are familiar with using a gun) to aim a shot at someones head/thorax and kill them.

So no, there isn't the same intent with a punch as with a stabbing or a shooting. Unless you punch them repeatedly and extremely hard in the right places or are very lucky/unlucky with the consequences of hitting them once.

I was going to reply to the topic, but once again I've decided against it, as I've realised that all you want to do is argue and not see others points.

Enjoy finding a life as a body plumber. An MB.BS means bugger all if you have little concept of living in the everyday world.

[bellamy11]

Hang on - are we genuinely saying there is the same chance of killing somebody with a punch as a stab? Dave, you normally speak complete sense but you're well wrong there.

[yoda]

I was going to reply to the topic, but once again I've decided against it, as I've realised that all you want to do is argue and not see others points.

Enjoy finding a life as a body plumber. An MB.BS means bugger all if you have little concept of living in the everyday world.

Thats all he ever does, if you have a different point of view out come the insults.

I would hate to be a patient of his!

[Hughesy]

It inhibits judgement

2. Like picking up the most dangerous weapon possible in a burglary situation? Seriously TGM if there's someone coming up your stairs in the dark would you pick up a loaded shotgun, a cavalry sword thats hanging on a beam, a bedroom stool or a feather duster when the adrenalin is kicking in? I'd suggest that you'd follow the above order, in fact you'd be stupid not to.

Responsibility imo must always be on the thief.

Anyone would pick up the biggest/ most effective weapon unless they wanted to run the risk of dying themselves.

I dont think TGM realises that if a thief spots you close up, usually they will attack you - prior to running away. If they just run your lucky (and lucky you didnt need something to protect yourself with). However if they attack you, usually they will have a weapon on them, whether its a metal bar, knife or whether they are just wired up on drugs (Now im sure at this stage you wouldnt just want your feather duster).

Going back to the working alone point - most thiefs work in pairs or more - so how do you plan to tackle two with just your feather duster? Seriously you need to be aware of the threat that thiefs cause you if they are doing you over, usually they are wired and desperate for the money from the job they are doing, they aint going to give that up easy.. if your happy to just let them run then fair enough, thats your choice.

[thenodrog]

Adrenaline can't make your punches harder.

Maybe but the salient point is that it makes 'reasonable force' a lot more difficult to control and guage. A half punch will become a lot closer to a full one when arteries full of adrenaline are involved. And similar with a reasonable tap with a poker or hammer etc.

Anyway you havent answered this...........

"Seriously TGM if there's someone coming up your stairs in the dark would you pick up a loaded shotgun, a cavalry sword thats hanging on a beam, a bedroom stool or a feather duster when the adrenalin is kicking in? I'd suggest that you'd follow the above order, in fact you'd be stupid not to. "

Think carefully it might end up the last decision that you will ever make. Are you and yours going to be safe or sorry?

[Flopsy]

I knew I had it somewhere

BBC article from Feb last year

[thenodrog]

I knew I had it somewhere

BBC article from Feb last year

Surely thats closer to self defence tha robbery and there should not even have been a decision to make regarding prosecution.

btw .... Has Mr Singh recieved his medal yet? He should. Thank you Mr Singh from all of us.

[Flopsy]

"Seriously TGM if there's someone coming up your stairs in the dark would you pick up a loaded shotgun, a cavalry sword thats hanging on a beam, a bedroom stool or a feather duster when the adrenalin is kicking in? I'd suggest that you'd follow the above order, in fact you'd be stupid not to. "

Think carefully it might end up the last decision that you will ever make. Are you and yours going to be safe or sorry?

Adrenaline means that you'll grab the first thing that comes to hand, if you're thinking rationally then you'll go for the shotgun, if you're panicking due to being faced with an intruder in the house, I'm guessing you arent thinking particularly rationally.

But I'd probably end up going for the bedroom stool as it'll be close to hand, why would you have a cavalry sword on a beam in your bedroom, or a loaded shotgun lying around? Waht are you some kind of Guns and Ammo freak like me?

[broadsword]

Whilst I would never argue that it is as easy to kill someone with a punch as with a knife, I'd have thought that adrenaline would make you punch harder.

It's like those instances where someone has had to lift a car to save another person's life, from what I've read the adrenaline kicks in and more motor units are recruited resulting in them being capable of lifting much more than they ordinarily would.

Throwing a punch is equatable to lifting a car, you're generating muscular tension, so why wouldn't adrenaline much you punch harder?

Adrenaline means that you'll grab the first thing that comes to hand, if you're thinking rationally then you'll go for the shotgun, if you're panicking due to being faced with an intruder in the house, I'm guessing you arent thinking particularly rationally.

But I'd probably end up going for the bedroom stool as it'll be close to hand, why would you have a cavalry sword on a beam in your bedroom, or a loaded shotgun lying around? Waht are you some kind of Guns and Ammo freak like me?

Normal everyday objects can be pretty lethal.

If you sprayed a can of deoderant in someone's eyes, they'd know about it.

Or jabbing someone under the chin with a rolled up magazine.

I'd use my swiss army knife, but it would take too long to get the right attachment out.

[Flopsy]

Surely thats closer to self defence tha robbery and there should not even have been a decision to make regarding prosecution.

btw .... Has Mr Singh recieved his medal yet? He should. Thank you Mr Singh from all of us.

I guess the bloke who got killed had a decent excuse for not turning up to court