[Archived] Spurs Preview

[martmitch]

no they didnt, the delight on lawros face talking about us was there for all to see

[Eddie]

Eddie, if you think that Givet's "handball" was a penalty, then I despair at your lack of football knowledge. It was plain to see he was attempting to get his hand and arm out of the way. The ref took the p even further by allowing the "penalty" to be taken from where it was.

Take another look. He doesn't move his arm back until he is struck by the ball. The distance between himself and Lennon is great enough that you can't really argue ball-to-hand. It's very unlucky, a soft penalty, but a penalty. As I said, if it had happened at the other end we all would have wanted it. A lot of people on here said we could have had 4/5 penalties against West Ham and complained, well most of those incidents were no more clearcut than this one. At some point you have to take your Rovers glasses off and just see an incident for what it is. The ball not being on the spot was an entirely different matter, but in the end the ref balanced things out a bit with what was a soft second yellow for Palacios.

[Tris]

Take another look. He doesn't move his arm back until he is struck by the ball. The distance between himself and Lennon is great enough that you can't really argue ball-to-hand. It's very unlucky, a soft penalty, but a penalty. As I said, if it had happened at the other end we all would have wanted it. A lot of people on here said we could have had 4/5 penalties against West Ham and complained, well most of those incidents were no more clearcut than this one. At some point you have to take your Rovers glasses off and just see an incident for what it is. The ball not being on the spot was an entirely different matter, but in the end the ref balanced things out a bit with what was a soft second yellow for Palacios.

Eddie, if that was a penalty, then Walton should have given Rovers at least two. You can't argue with that because you'd be arguing against your own theory. No Rovers glasses required.

[Eddie]

I don't know the two you are speaking of. I assume the first is the Corluka incident, which was a bit different. He was inconsistent with it though, there was one example on the halfway line which was virtually identical to what happened to Givet and he didn't give it, but his inconsistency doesn't make every decision wrong.

[Exiled_Rover]

The Corluka incident clearly struck his arm. It was unintentional, but according to your interpretation of the rules, Eddie, it's a penalty. Likewise, Keane deflected the ball up onto his arm before clearing in the second half. Neither incident was given, surprise, surprise.

Givet had the ball hammered at him from less than ten yards away, it was entirely unintentional. His inconsistency is irritating because he only called the decision that benefitted Spurs - I'd rather they called them all penalties or none of them penalties, just stick with one ruling on the subject and everyone would know where they stand.

[Hughesy]

Yes palacios got a soft second yellow, but he had made 4 bookable fouls earlier - maybe persistent fouling like sam said?

As for the penalty Eddie - you are wrong - the commentator on MOTD even mentioned he pulled his arm out of the way, which he did - he was also very close to the ball when it was struck at pace. As for we would of been shouting for it? What about the one at the bburn end when it dropped onto the arm of one of theirs - we didnt get that one did we.

MOTM - BY A MILE - CHRIS SAMBA!!! 2 assists from the big man, caused havoc and did well in defence too.

[Ossydave]

It was a penalty, he may have tried to move his arm in time, but didn't! Its unfortunate but it happens.

[Amo]

"Referees look at two specifics - did the hand or arm go towards the ball or in a manner which would block the ball, or is the hand in a position where it would not normally be?"

^ Neither was the case with Givet. It wasn't a penalty.

[Eddie]

The ball clearly struck Corluka's arm, but it was after the ball had passed every player in the box and the ball was going nowhere and he had gone up in the air to challenge for a header and was therefor not fully in control of his body (if you see what I mean). Givet was quite far away from Lennon, far enough away that you can't say that it was impossible for him to get his arm out of the way and I disagree with the MOTD commentator's interpretation.

If I had been the official would I have given it? Probably not, but I can understand why an official would and so long as he consistently applies the law then I don't have a problem with it. This particular ref was inconsistent on the issue, but his inconsistency doesn't make a decision wrong, it just means that he had a bad game. I'm not really trying to argue that one particular decision was right or wrong because of another one that was made, I'm just looking at this one incident in isolation. I don't think the handball was intentional, the ref clearly didn't either as Givet wasn't booked, but he was also far enough away that it can't really be seen simply as ball to hand. As I said, the litmus test that I always use is would I want it/expect it to be given at the other end and for this one I think I would, whereas the Corluka one I didn't feel like it was a penalty. That's subjective, you can disagree with it and it's an area of the laws that is very much up for interpretation and each individual referee can apply it differently (which is an issue), but that is how I see it.

[philipl]

So was the Corluka incident. Entirely accidental but Corluka did deflect the ball with his arm into an easy clearance position. Ditto the Keane handball which enabled him to control it accidentally. I agree with eddie and ossydave that both those were penalties as well.

Incidentally, anyone remember the 84th minute incident in the 3-2 defeat at White Hart Lane where we absolutely murdered them? Ball was dropping for Bentley to volley from 7 yards when the Spud practically caught the thing then hoofed the clearance. Both Keane's goals in that game were completely illegal- first was handball, the second offside.

The cross from Lennon to Berbatov for their winner straight after our equaliser in that game was the last high truly quality cross Lennon has played by the way.

[brfcs5359]

I thought a fair result was both teams deducted 3 points. It was that bad.

Harry's post match sulk was enjoyable. He said Spurs were in control - yes against Rovers worst performance of the season Harry. It was obvious that any team that upped the tempo would take the game from Spurs easily they were that bad and that not in control. In the end two dollops forward did the job Harry. Spurs we're so far away from controlling the game it should send shudders for next season for them that their team is dire (worse than Rovers) and the manager talks absolute balls.

* The penalty, never.

* Dunn out wide poor, Dunn inside swung the game. He avoided Palacios rightly for the second, not a dive and not a booking. Spurs were rubbish with or without Palacios

* Roberts abysmal

* Mokeona - Worst game in Rovers in shirt

* McCarthy. With 4 spare tyre's he couldn't even jog and embarrasingly he had a 5 yeard start over 15 yards and gave up because he knew he was second best.

* Andrews - Poor for the most part

* McCarthy - easy header, * Diouf, easy turn and goal but missed, * Penalty for Rovers missed with hands up, * Penalty for Rovers handled in the box.

* Tugay added composure and make Spurs midfield with Palacios look woeful

* Pederson - contributed nothing

* Diouf - works hard, no end product, no pace.

* Robinson - getting better, world class save early on.

* Samba up front offered more than Roberts and McCarthy ever will

* Ooijar shold be an automatic - so stick with samba up front till next season. Make most of the little we have.

* Play Andrews in Midfield - its the only position he offers anything

* Warnock had a great game. MOM (with Samba), held together a shower of .............. for 70 minutes. The block/tackle at the end was worth the entry money alone.

Robinson 8, Andrews 5, Samba 8, Nelson 8, Givet 7, Pederson 5 (Dunn 7 for last 15 minutes), Warnock 8, Mokeona 3 (Tugay 6), Diouf 5, Roberts 4 (Ooijar 8), McCarthy 3.

[SouthAussieRover]

Wow, how did we win that? Mind you I'm totally wrapped especially looking at the table this morning.

I believe the referee has reached "retirement" age but was allowed to stay.On that showing his time must have come. Palacios must have wondered where the justice in the game had gone when he's sent off and Mokoena get's away with taking him out.

[dave birch]

Take another look. He doesn't move his arm back until he is struck by the ball. The distance between himself and Lennon is great enough that you can't really argue ball-to-hand. It's very unlucky, a soft penalty, but a penalty. As I said, if it had happened at the other end we all would have wanted it. A lot of people on here said we could have had 4/5 penalties against West Ham and complained, well most of those incidents were no more clearcut than this one. At some point you have to take your Rovers glasses off and just see an incident for what it is. The ball not being on the spot was an entirely different matter, but in the end the ref balanced things out a bit with what was a soft second yellow for Palacios.

Eddie, for your information I've copied this from a BBC article on the subject. My reading of this would suggest that it was not a penalty.

"Hand to ball or ball to hand?" Nothing stirs the passion like a controversial handball decision.

You've only got to look at players and managers jumping up and down enraged at a dodgy penalty to know that.

A ball slams into a player's arm and one team is screaming for a penalty, while the others are claiming it was an accident.

It's a tricky one for the referee to call in the heat of the moment.

So what is 'deliberate' handball?

In Fifa's Laws of the Game 2005, Law 12 says a free-kick or penalty will be awarded if a player "handles the ball deliberately (except for the goalkeeper within his own penalty area)".

Page 67 of the document gives "additional information for referees, assistant referees and fourth officials".

It adds: "Referees are reminded that deliberately handling the ball is normally punished only by a direct free-kick or penalty kick if the offence occurred inside the penalty area.

"A caution or dismissal is not normally required."

However, the document fails to describe what constitutes deliberate handball, which places the responsibility firmly on the referee and referees' assistants.

Former Premier League referee David Elleray said the referee's interpretation depends on whether the hand or arm is in an "unnatural" position at the point of contact.

David Elleray consults his assistant during a club

Referees often consult their assistants on decisions

"Referees look at two specifics - did the hand or arm go towards the ball or in a manner which would block the ball, or is the hand in a position where it would not normally be?" Elleray told BBC Sport.

"The challenging decisions are if the defending player spreads their arms to make themselves bigger.

"If the ball hits the arm then the referee must decide whether this action was to deliberately block the ball or whether the player has raised their arms to protect themselves - especially if the ball is hit at speed."

The referee and referees' assistants, therefore, have a matter of seconds to weigh up these factors, and take the appropriate action.

And there will always be at least one manager, 11 players and thousands of fans who will insist they have been hard done by."

The ref failed in all of the suggested actions Ellery makes.

As for "balancing things out"! Since when have two wrongs made a right?

[broadsword]

It was never a bloody pen, I'm not going to faff around saying why, it just wasn't.

And it wasn't on the spot either.

That ref was an absolute disgrace.

[jim mk2]

Sat in the Jack Walker upper hoping for a change of luck and after that extraordinary result perhaps I should sit there more often.

Rovers were awful but to be honest I don't care. We deserve a change of luck. And I love beating Spurs.

Don't normally berate referees but today's official was incompetant.

If we survive we need 6 or 7 new players next season. And good ones too, not squad players.

[Eddie]

He didn't fail in all of them, Givet's arms were out, but not protecting himself and so it can be interpreted as "making himself bigger". As I said, some will see it one way and others another, consistency is the key. Why are some of you so damn sure that you are right? Have you not watched enough football to know that quite a few officials take the same interpretation as the one the ref today took? I can't say anyone saying that it wasn't penalty is wrong, equally no one saying that it was a penalty can accused of being wrong. I would have loved for it to not have been given, but next week you'll all be on here screaming for something similar and saying that the ref was crap. I'm tired of discussing it to be honest, tired of discussing things with people who are unable to see that certain situations aren't black and white and that there may be validity in a different interpretation. Discussing it with people who quite frankly can't see past their own club affiliation and who I know would think it was a penalty had it happened at the other end.

[Hughesy]

Suprise nobody else has mentioned how much fitter we looked - tottenham players were shattered and that made a big impact in the last 10 minute turn around.

[Tris]

Discussing it with people who quite frankly can't see past their own club affiliation and who I know would think it was a penalty had it happened at the other end.

It did and it wasn't. You've picked the wrong day to argue this one, and as a result you are making no sense at all.

[American]

I'd say that at real speed, I originally thought it was a penalty - the replays show it probably wasn't, but the refs don't have replay, so I can see why it was called.

That being said, the second yellow was a pretty weak yellow, especially since he tried to pull out of the challenge.

The moral of the story isn't that the refs are biased against us, it is that the quality of officiating is not the same standard as the quality of the league.

[dave birch]

Not so sure about that, American.

I'd say the quality of the officiating in that game was marginally worse than the game itself.

It was truly awful football, from both sides.

[AussieinUk]

Points were desperately needed, but the game was very poor in quality (esp Rovers). Diouf was very frustrating to watch.

Overall, I don't mind us winning ugly, as long as we get the points.

[RoversFanUSA]

Yay for the points!!

[James No. 7]

I'd say that at real speed, I originally thought it was a penalty - the replays show it probably wasn't, but the refs don't have replay, so I can see why it was called.

That being said, the second yellow was a pretty weak yellow, especially since he tried to pull out of the challenge.

The moral of the story isn't that the refs are biased against us, it is that the quality of officiating is not the same standard as the quality of the league.

Would that same referee have paid the same penalty against Manchester United at Old Trafford?

[Rover Down Under]

From what I gather someone was in a critical condition, not sure if they collapsed.

Probably ended up like me - needing a defibrilator to revive me after 82 minutes of torture, 7 of nerve racking tension and 1 of sheer unadulterated joyful bliss!

Ah...my beloved Rovers, why dost thou torture me so?

[Paul]

Was it a penalty? I dozed through MOTD so don't know what was shown. From where I sit, JW upper, level with the edge of the BBE penalty area, I thought it was a penalty and one I would have expected, as would thousands of others, to be given in Rovers favour at the other end. I didn't notice the other incidents people refer to, it seems there are several missed "penalty" decisions in every game, which I think is more about the support than the referees.

I've watched Eddie's video clip and my view from that would be this. The ball hit Givet's hand and he only pulled his arm away afterwards plus this clearly gave Rovers an advantage so the ref was going to give a penalty. I can't see where the arguement is on this one. There wasn't a fan at Ewood yesterday who wouldn't have been screaming blue murder if that hadn't been given our way.