[Archived] Sensitive Topic

[roversmum]

The collapse of the railway bridge, Alan?

[Ninjathunder]

Imagine if the Rovers, at the top of their powers in the early 90s had suffered such a tragedy. Close to a hundred Rovers fans killed through no fault of their own, and with no-one taking responsibility. Every Rovers supporter would know, or know of someone, who had been killed, or who were nearly crushed to death. Each year the town would remember those who died, after setting out, like we all do, on a Saturday to watch our team. Twenty years after the event we would want to remember those who died. Why should Liverpool fans be any different?

Most of the posts here show a deep lack of humanity and respect. Shame on you.

A good link: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/ap...shire-liverpool

You beat me to it. Some of the stuff written on here is a disgrace.

[Alan75]

Nothing I can recall about a 1952 disaster at the moment.

On January 19 1952, Bury v Rovers

Hundreds of Rovers fans were waiting at Bury's Knowsley Street station for the match-special train to take them home. when the bridge collapsed, men, women and children lay trapped on the tracks beneath bodies and debris from the wrecked bridge. There was one fatality a Mr William Mosses aged 66.

Two of the fans who helped in the Rescue were Jack & Fred Walker.

[Guest Vinjay606]

The collapse of the railway bridge, Alan?

Yes that was mentioned in the "club that jack built" publication.

One person died so it's not exactly on the same scale as the Bolton, Ibrox, Bradford and Liverpool disasters.

[T4E]

And Tugay4England, What exactly is amusing about the loss of not just great players, most of whom were in their early twenties and had young families, but most of those lads were a loss to English football as a whole, i grew up around the corner from Ewood park and it wasn't just United who lost something special, i had the pleasure of seeing them lads play for their country and for some jumped up little coward to sit at a keyboard and mock them is a disgrace.

Care to explain what it was about my post that led you to believe I was mocking Munich and its victims?

[Ricky]

I visited the rebuilt Heysel stadium in February. Was very suprised that there was no plaque or memorial to remember the fans who lost their lives at the match. I walked around the ground and didnt see anything at all. Must admit I thought there would be something.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

I don't want to take sides in this, all I will say is that people from Liverpool seem to have a different , more over bearing, attitude to death generally. If you ever read the Liverpool Echo a glance at the death notices column will bear out my comments. In my local paper the notices are matter of fact with very little overt sentiment, the ones in the Echo are usually brim full of emotion and sentimentality. Maybe they are right, maybe they care more about each other, maybe we should all be like that. All I'm saying is they seem to deal with it differently.

[Guest Vinjay606]

I visited the rebuilt Heysel stadium in February. Was very suprised that there was no plaque or memorial to remember the fans who lost their lives at the match. I walked around the ground and didnt see anything at all. Must admit I thought there would be something.

Maybe you just missed it and it's well hidden. Liverpool fans were complaining about no memorial at Hillsborough itself though apparently there is one somewhere in or close to the ground. I always get the impression Sheffield Wednesday want to distance themselves from it as people will always identify their stadium as most notable for this disaster. Not really something I would want Ewood (as an example) to be known for.

[thenodrog]

I don't want to take sides in this, all I will say is that people from Liverpool seem to have a different , more over bearing, attitude to death generally. If you ever read the Liverpool Echo a glance at the death notices column will bear out my comments. In my local paper the notices are matter of fact with very little overt sentiment, the ones in the Echo are usually brim full of emotion and sentimentality. Maybe they are right, maybe they care more about each other, maybe we should all be like that. All I'm saying is they seem to deal with it differently.

Sales of OK magazine must have rocketed around that neck of the woods this past few weeks then.

Maybe you just missed it and it's well hidden. Liverpool fans were complaining about no memorial at Hillsborough itself though apparently there is one somewhere in or close to the ground. I always get the impression Sheffield Wednesday want to distance themselves from it as people will always identify their stadium as most notable for this disaster. Not really something I would want Ewood (as an example) to be known for.

Indeed. Memorials should be tasteful and sombre.

[Saltysellars]

I think it's probable that plenty will and one or two from the Bradford Argos even, but the worlds press and media will not be there in plane loads will they?

I went to Bradford yesterday- unknown to me that they were playing Lincoln City- the team they were playing on the day of the disaster in 1985. There are two memorials to the tragedy outside the ground- Bradford do have a black trim on their shirts as a permanent tribute and there was an impecabble minutes silence held. Added to that, the club made a substantial £10,000 donation to the Leeds Hospital Burns unit.

[Manc Rover]

This could well be one of the stupidest posts i've ever seen, first of all Man Utd have never milked the Munich air disaster that is something thats thrown at them out of pure bitterness, they were already the most supported club in the country by the time it happened and for the two seasons leading upto the disaster already had the highest attendances in the country and as someone who who was around during that time i can also tell you they weren't just another club before the disaster the Busby Babes were the most famous team in the country and young kids from different parts of the country loved them. After the Munich air disaster their crowds actually went down but were still the highest in the country.

I appologise if i'm going on here but i'm actually dumbstruck at how ignorant you're, do you not expect clubs that have had things like this happen to acknowledge them, what about Torino in Italy have they milked their disaster, after all they even had postage stamps with the team on to mark the tragedy, and every year they all go to where it happened to remeber them they've probably done more than United have over the years but you're not including them in your pathetic post, why aren't they the most famous club in the world if all it takes is tragedy to make any old club famous. Could it have something to do with Busby not just rebuilding the club but bringing a team together that finished what they started and included footballs first real superstar in Best.

Now why why don't you give us an indepth breakdown of what United have done to milk Munich and what Liverpool are doing to milk Hillsborough you sad pathetic tit.

The only people to milk this sort of thing are the press, i'm sure someone as clued up as you knows that, i mean look at your post it just oozes knowledge on all things.

And Tugay4England, What exactly is amusing about the loss of not just great players, most of whom were in their early twenties and had young families, but most of those lads were a loss to English football as a whole, i grew up around the corner from Ewood park and it wasn't just United who lost something special, i had the pleasure of seeing them lads play for their country and for some jumped up little coward to sit at a keyboard and mock them is a disgrace.

Unfortunately, Man Utd DID milk the anniversary of the Munich disaster last year. In fact, they had a huge banner outside the East Stand last year to commemorate the occasion with AIG and NIKE splattered all over it. If that's not taking advantage of the situation then I don't know what is! Also, special features in their programmes and on their website had their sponsors logos all over them.

[Tris]

I think it's probable that plenty will and one or two from the Bradford Argos even, but the worlds press and media will not be there in plane loads will they?

Maybe not, but then neither has anyone started a topic on a Rovers messageboard to grandstand their dislike for Bradford, its inhabitants or the football club have they? That would just be strange.

Loss of life in either circumstance was tragic and unexpected, and unnecessary. Both events led to safer stadia, and both will always be remembered by the clubs and fans of the clubs, year after year.

How the worlds press and media choose to cover those acts of remembrance is down to them alone, it's ridiculous to suggest that the current attention 20 years on from Hillsborough is down to a conspiratorial LFC marketing ploy, or the personalities of Liverpool people.

Whatever your opinion on who was to blame, clearly closure has not been forthcoming for those who lost relatives 20 years ago in Sheffield, and they are entitled IMO to continue to seek that closure (or justice in their words) on behalf of their dead.

When the stand in Bradford was burning, there weren't policemen at the front following an order to quell a suspected pitch invasion by pushing the dying back into the flames were there? The enquiry following the Bradford tragedy found cause and effect, but no Hillsborough enquiry, inquest, court case or high ranking official has ever answered all the questions.

People are entitled to their views but I personally find the content of this thread to be insensitive. I posted 5 years back that this tragedy could have struck any football club - it could have been us mourning tomorrow. That's why I think people should put away their grandstanding and stereotyping, put yourselves in the shoes of the bereaved and show some respect.

[Rover95]

Imagine if the Rovers, at the top of their powers in the early 90s had suffered such a tragedy. Close to a hundred Rovers fans killed through no fault of their own, and with no-one taking responsibility. Every Rovers supporter would know, or know of someone, who had been killed, or who were nearly crushed to death. Each year the town would remember those who died, after setting out, like we all do, on a Saturday to watch our team. Twenty years after the event we would want to remember those who died. Why should Liverpool fans be any different?

Most of the posts here show a deep lack of humanity and respect. Shame on you.

A good link: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/ap...shire-liverpool

My thoughts exactly. Thats the thing with Hillsborough - it could have happened to any club. I remember walking back from Ewood the day it happened and having the overwhelming feeling of sadness whilst watching all the pictures on the TV. That could have happened to us. I see nothing wrong in a city having a memorial service each year to give their respect to those who died in such terrible circumstances.

My only question is - who is responsible for the media coverage of it all? And why is the Bradford Fire not remembered in the same way. Big Club mentality

[Mr Maureen]

My thoughts exactly. Thats the thing with Hillsborough - it could have happened to any club. I remember walking back from Ewood the day it happened and having the overwhelming feeling of sadness whilst watching all the pictures on the TV. That could have happened to us. I see nothing wrong in a city having a memorial service each year to give their respect to those who died in such terrible circumstances.

My only question is - who is responsible for the media coverage of it all? And why is the Bradford Fire not remembered in the same way. Big Club mentality

They want Justice for the 96 not just a memorial.

Justice for the 96 means the south Yorkshire police accepting full responsibility,then no doubt massive compensation claims by the families.

Guilt ridden scousers.

[patrickvalery]

Now that we have all mourned the Hillsborough disaster yet again and had God only knows how many minutes silences (I endured 3 this weekend) how long will it all continue. I'm not wanting to be heartless but exactly when does the city of Lpool and the popular press and media encourage us all to mourn those lost in the disaster at Heyschell (and Bradford and Glasgow for that matter too with regard to the press and media)? According to the myths now deeply ingrained in the scouse psyche all the mickey mousers were completely and totally blameless at Hillborough no matter how late / p1ssed up they were and no matter where they got their tickets from hmmm but they bloody well weren't in Belgium were they? So do we have a minutes silence every year for them? Do we hell! Nope the 39 dead Italians were again all the fault of negligent authorities weren't they?

No doubt I'll be lambasted for suggesting such a thing but am I the only one who suspects that after seeing the meteorological success that Man Utd have gained by milking Munich 58 for all it is worth that the 'men in grey suits' behind Liverpool FC are seeking to utilise this by employing the same tactic but in this case in the name of the Hillsborough dead? Remember MU were just another club pre Munich 58. Sounds awful but to a suspicious soul like myself collective grief and stuff like this really is a marketing mans dream. For those that disagree I'll bet their are younger members reading this who are completely unaware of the other 3 major footballing disasters of the past 50 years.

Pure nonsense. Maybe we should bin off remembrance day too. Those bloody war veterans have been milking that for ever.

Preventable loss of life is a tragedy whatever circumstance it occurs in. Does it really hurt you to give up a few minutes of your life to silence every year? And for the record sitting in silence whilst musing over some conspiracy theory connected to said tragedy defeats the object.

[blue phil]

This could well be one of the stupidest posts i've ever seen

Now why why don't you give us an indepth breakdown of what United have done to milk Munich and what Liverpool are doing to milk Hillsborough you sad pathetic tit.

I suppose this is about the best we can hope for until ICBINF reopens ......

[stuwilky]

A thought.

We've been to thousands of football matches. Personally, Ive followed Rovers, Ive shouted on others, Ive watched for entertainment, Ive been in hospitality, Ive stewarded, Ive organised, whatever it was.

But Ive made it home from every single one of them.

[Eddie]

Have to agree with the idea behind this, it gets a bit boring after a while. Obviously it was a tragedy and it should be mentioned whenever a major anniversary comes up, but it deserves no more attention then any of the other major football ground tragedies and isn't something that needs to come up every year in the general media. I certainly don't think Liverpool should have it down as some sacred day and do things like talk about not letting UEFA making them play on the day and things like that.

[Drummer Boy]

QUOTE (Paul Mellelieu @ Apr 13 2009, 09:01 ) *

Imagine if the Rovers, at the top of their powers in the early 90s had suffered such a tragedy. Close to a hundred Rovers fans killed through no fault of their own, and with no-one taking responsibility. Every Rovers supporter would know, or know of someone, who had been killed, or who were nearly crushed to death. Each year the town would remember those who died, after setting out, like we all do, on a Saturday to watch our team. Twenty years after the event we would want to remember those who died. Why should Liverpool fans be any different?

Most of the posts here show a deep lack of humanity and respect. Shame on you.

QUOTE TRIS

Maybe not, but then neither has anyone started a topic on a Rovers messageboard to grandstand their dislike for Bradford, its inhabitants or the football club have they? That would just be strange.

Loss of life in either circumstance was tragic and unexpected, and unnecessary. Both events led to safer stadia, and both will always be remembered by the clubs and fans of the clubs, year after year.

How the worlds press and media choose to cover those acts of remembrance is down to them alone, it's ridiculous to suggest that the current attention 20 years on from Hillsborough is down to a conspiratorial LFC marketing ploy, or the personalities of Liverpool people.

Whatever your opinion on who was to blame, clearly closure has not been forthcoming for those who lost relatives 20 years ago in Sheffield, and they are entitled IMO to continue to seek that closure (or justice in their words) on behalf of their dead.

When the stand in Bradford was burning, there weren't policemen at the front following an order to quell a suspected pitch invasion by pushing the dying back into the flames were there? The enquiry following the Bradford tragedy found cause and effect, but no Hillsborough enquiry, inquest, court case or high ranking official has ever answered all the questions.

People are entitled to their views but I personally find the content of this thread to be insensitive. I posted 5 years back that this tragedy could have struck any football club - it could have been us mourning tomorrow. That's why I think people should put away their grandstanding and stereotyping, put yourselves in the shoes of the bereaved and show some respect.

Well said, you two - this thread IMO is why ICBINF has closed - I respect all opinions but not gross insensitivity and prejudiced stereotyping of the whole population of a city that has dealt with more than its share of adversity. The ignorance being demonstrated by some on this subject does none of us on this board any favours and perhaps helps explain why we do not seem to have the variety of contributors we once had.

For the record, my career had taken me to Liverpool at the time of the match so I watched the events unfold with (scouse) colleagues live on TV. Far from maudlin sentimentality, I witnessed:

My future brother-in-law arriving back from the match unaware of the scale of the tragedy and had to watch his reaction as he was told

Photographers taking pictures - yes, taking pictures for Gods sake - as people died in front of them and they did nothing to help other than send their pictures to their editors

Newspapers in the Liverpool newsagents on Monday morning making outrageous accusations and generalisations about the usual "scouse thieves and scallies" nonsense seemingly repeated on this thread.

A work colleague have to take time off work to bury her son who had simply gone to a footie match - sorry, but my sense of humour is dwindling by the second as is my tolerance of some of the posts on this thread

Everybody try to say it wasn't their fault when actually everybody contributed in some way from the fans trying to get in late or without tickets to the police for not opening enough turnstiles for 20,000 to enter in short order to the authorities for giving the lowest capacity end of the ground to the club with the biggest support

On the other hand, some good did come out of it - and I don't mean 96 fewer scousers for the so-called comedians amongst us - in that English football reached a nadir with this tragedy following on from Bradford and Heysel:

It was not safe to take your children

It was hard enough work looking after yourself in some grounds never mind the kids

The grounds were absolute hovels

Toilets for women existed on an ad-hoc basis

You were fenced in like an animal despite the fact that only a small percentage needed fencing in

You were treated like a criminal on the basis that you must be to be at a football match

Indeed, the Hillsborough tragedy was the final straw that took us to all-seater stadia (long may they last IMO) where my children can sit and watch the match in relative safety in an environment where the kicking in of heads is a well-organised marginal activity undertaken by those who wish to participate usually well away from the ground. It is, symbolically, the turning point for our national game building on Bradford and Heysel and one we should never forget. I know I never will - picking a mate up from Lime Street that night will stick in my mind for a very long time as will the events that unfolded and took the lives of 96 largely innocent football supporters, just like you and me, that day.

I've been posting on this MB for many years and have always tried to think about positions taken and to understand those who post - even the really stupid 6th form rubbish that is spouted on the issues of race, religion and ethnicity that invariably descends into clever-dicking and personal abuse, but I have to say that I have never been as angry or disappointed in some of the attitudes as on this thread. THIS COULD HAVE BEEN YOU - GROW UP AND SHOW SOME HUMANITY. If you think that's false sentimentality and exploiting for gain you have my heartfelt pity and contempt in equal measure.

Goodnight

[neekoy]

Have to agree with the idea behind this, it gets a bit boring after a while. Obviously it was a tragedy and it should be mentioned whenever a major anniversary comes up, but it deserves no more attention then any of the other major football ground tragedies and isn't something that needs to come up every year in the general media. I certainly don't think Liverpool should have it down as some sacred day and do things like talk about not letting UEFA making them play on the day and things like that.

THIS

Also I didn't realise the scale of controversy of this, the Sun, Eastenders, Inquests and Inquiries, bloody hell this was huge.

[philipl]

Superb post by Drummer Boy (and by Paul Mellelieu and Tris).

Whilst the conduct of the authorities on that day at Hillsborough remains an open issue, the whole Hollsborough tragedy cannot move to closure and so it is inevitable that the anniversary is marked the way it is.

For all the criticism of the behaviour of Liverpool supporters for turning up irresponsibly drunk, there will be at least as many Rovers supporters turning up in a similar state proportionately at the Britannia on Saturday (look at the relevant threads). And with the game being a sell-out probably proportionately as many Rovers supporters who would want to go to the match and cannot but probably would travel on the off-chance of getting in had the club not organised transport and the Stoke fans not have such an unpleasant reputation.

Yes there have sadly been other tragedies but none with quite the same universality in the bathos of the event or the profundity of change that followed that is Hillsborough.

[thenodrog]

Does it really hurt you to give up a few minutes of your life to silence every year?

No as I have said I have already sat through several minutes silence and there'll prob be a few more today. So Patrick can you tell us all when did you last offer up a minute of your time up in silence on the anniversary's of Heyschell and Bradford?

Different situations and circumstances but how about Aberfan? Dunblane? Hungerford? How can one differentiate between tragedies?

Personally I don't know but it seems the press and media can, and that they can manipulate us all to do the same.

I may be wrong and only time will tell but I believe that the Hillsborough tragedy will grow and grow annually as the rest fade away to the history books. Should that prove tobe the case would you care to hazard a guess as to why that might be and who might be manipulating the issue?

Drummer Boy......"Photographers taking pictures - yes, taking pictures for Gods sake - as people died in front of them and they did nothing to help other than send their pictures to their editors"

That is very much my point. The press manipulate and use all angles if they scent an increase in circulation. Mark my words there'll be a bonus today for the cameraman who manages to capture the most poignant and heart wrenching shot of somebody in grief. Invasions of privacy or what? Sorry but I mean no malice but I am attempting to take a dispassionate view here, I don't think that your personal experiences are allowing you to.

Philip..... "Yes there have sadly been other tragedies but none with quite the same universality in the bathos of the event or the profundity of change that followed that is Hillsborough."

If you worked in the construction, insurance, hotel, H&S industries etc etc you may have a different opinion. The changes brought about by Bradford have been absolutely mega. Unfortunately the worlds press, media and marketing men do not find such areas very interesting ......... or expoitable.

btw Less of the personal stuff I did name the topic 'Sensitive' for a reason. I am not particularly being judgemental but rather holding up comparisons and questioning emphasis.

[OscarRaven]

Champions League Final.... Ticketless Liverpool fans storm broken electronic turnstiles...

Its all South Yorkshire's Police fault.

Clearly the people who suffered the most at Hillsbourgh were the innocent who had turned up early. I can't believe 20 years on the world of football has learn't so much but Liverpool fans so little.

So yes remember, but also learn.

Liverpool fans need to stop looking everywhere else for blame, the police bear some responsibilty and have acknowledged this but so do the ticketless liverpool fans who no doubt wll turn up to day full of grief for the people they crushed.

Learn from it Liverpool fans, it nearly happened again in Athens! It's only a game, its not worth anyone dying.

[Ozz]

The BBC site has some very ,very upsetting images and words which carry the sheer horror of what happened 20 years ago. As Stu Wilky says, to those of us old enough to have been around when terraces were commonplace, and anarchy often was the norm at big matches, it really could have been anyone of us that got crushed to death on a metal fence.

BBC Slide Show.

[modes98]

Liverpool fans need to stop looking everywhere else for blame, the police bear some responsibilty and have acknowledged this but so do the ticketless liverpool fans who no doubt wll turn up to day full of grief for the people they crushed.

Exactly. Liverpool fans have only there fellow supporters to blame who continue to cause situations that shouldn't occur. Some call it passion, others stupidity.

I know it was a disaster but Liverpool as a club should really move on and just have a service every 5 years or something.