[Archived] Sensitive Topic

[Anti-Dingle-Brigade]

One of the only things that I don't "get" about the Liverpool fans is the way in which they ask for justice, but only last season when we sold out against Liverpool their fans were jumping the barriers and going through in twos (so we actually went over capacity I assume). Surely, they of all people should know the outcome of doing that sort of thing?

Of course, nothing would have happened at Ewood because there is so much space and they simply sat/stood on the steps instead, but a smaller ground...

[Drummer Boy]

Leftfooter's opaque post is bizarre. Grief is not just a private matter, nor should it be. Should we not remember the war dead, and Holocaust victims?

Do you not have a sense of human solidarity or empathy? This tragic episode ruined the lives of thousands of people and you compare it, in some twisted way, to the media circus surrounding Jade Goody. Are you really unable to distinguish between the two?

OscarRaven and Modes, you posts are actually quite upsetting, disgusting in fact. Even if you what you say is true (and I don't believe it is) in blaming ticketless Liverpool fans for some of the pressure in the Lepping Lanes end, do you really think that they, and not the officials in charge of policing the game are responsible for killing 96 people?

Catch yourself on.

Paul, your ability to be both compassionate and human whilst remaining rational is admirable, especially given the direction this thread is taking and the failure of others to do likewise.

LeftFooter does not help his argument with the way he goes about saying what he says, but much of it fails on the grounds of logic and discipline to which he refers.

He has a point about public token sentimentality in society (examples are many) but as you point out fails to differentiate between Jade Goody who sought it and 96 footie fans who didn't.

We are told/cajoled by a voyeuristic and trivialising media that we demanded and duly got, rather than any formal instrument of state, into sentimentality on relatively trivial matters to the extent that people cry about the result of a footie match or the result of a talent show.

However, this does not undermine rational discussion which is done a much greater disservice by resorting to stereotypes, in this case about scousers, and failing to differentiate between compassion and sentimentality when trying to be logical and attempt disciplined thought - which is what is happening on this thread IMO.

I'm as fed up as the next man of the endless "one minute silence for the 20th anniversary of the hit-and-run death of the club physio's dog" to which we seem to be exposed and agree grief has a private and public element; however, Hillsborough, on the cumulative back of Bradford and Heysel, was a watershed in the history of the game and fundamentally drove its subsequent development. As such we should not forget it as a logical (and compassionate) symbol - the frequency will settle down as those involved stop hiding, the 96 get closure so they can forgive honest mistakes made by others and those of us who were part of the fabric of football in the late 80's as supporters who realised it could have been any of us start to die off.

We should not forget the families of those who died and have been denied closure by the refusal for many years until cornered, of other parties to accept their share of responsibility. This is the compassion bit that sits comfortably with the logic bit to me but not, it seems, to all of us. I noted some branding of scousers earlier in this thread and its all a matter of perspective: Maybe some of them won't accept whitewash and won't rest until their very strong sense of justice is satisfied - long may that characteristic last if indeed it is a common trait. That is not blaming innocents or "invoking against any enemy", it is the demand for justice to which they are entitled.

The rest of his post paints anybody who has compassion as volunteer 'victims' and seems to further confuse compassion and sentimentality seeming to link this with denial of personal responsibility - don't know why. It is possible to compassionately accept you have made mistakes and feel compassionately bad about it; you may even allow yourself a little maudlin self-pity/sentimentality in a quiet moment!

The city of Liverpool and Liverpool Football Club has a strong sense of community as well as myriad problems (that could be pointed out as proof they have no sense of community before the cynics jump on me) - maybe we could learn something from them rather than hammering them for standing up for what they believe and refusing to be kow-towed(?) by cynics, liars and fools? In formulating answers, please remember we are all part of a football community that is now infinitely better served than it was directly as a result of the tragedies culminating in Hillsborough - the least we could is recognise and support the pursuit of justice for the victims and their families instead of hiding behind mock intellectualism and a mask of being logical at the expense of compassion that we confuse with sentimentality.

[T4E]

Totally agree Flopsy, I've always thought this and will continue to do so. While I still feel sadness watching those events unfold on TV now, I cannot in good conscience agree with the way everything has been and continues to be portrayed on TV and by the Liverpool fans themselves. 96 people should never have died and 96 people should be mourned respectfully and honourably. Justice for the 96? Liverpool fans who were there and were pushing forward need to stand up and say they were sorry for their part in it as well as those who were in charge that day. That's it.

It strikes me that there's three schools of thought on this thread.

I have issue with the complete hypocrisyy of Liverpool FC in that way that they deal with two very very similar tragedies, both of which they were heavily involved in. Surely the intense feeling of grief should apply to both situations?

Gordon and a few other have issues similar to the above in the way that the Media deal with these two (and several other) similar tragedies.

People like Ivan and Flopsy clearly take issue with the way that the Liverpool fans have been completely absolved of any blame. Yes - the "Truth" in the Sun was complete fabrication, but to assume that is the whole story is foolish and slightly obtuse.

I don't really see any of these viewpoints as being particularly disrespectful or callous towards the victims and their families.

[CrazyIvan]

That's it? The gates hsould never have been opened by the police. As soon as the gates were opened the chaos started. The super-intendant at the time was asked first time whether the gates should be opened, he rejected the claim, he also rejected the proposal of the match being delayed. The game should not have gone ahead. The gates should never have been opened for others to get in.

A 10 year old child was killed in there. What if that was your child? His mother bought him a ticket so that he could see his childhood heroes, he didn't return home. How distressing is that for his family? Can you not show that little ounce of respect for them.

The police need to take the blame for the incident, The super intendant at the time handed in his resignation straight after the disaster. Why? According to some of you the police have done no wrong, well the fact is they have and they should take the blame for those that died on the day.

JUSTICE FOR THE 96!!!

You obviously missed this bit... "as well as those who were in charge that day".

Yes, it was distressing at the very least and no, it shouldn't have happened but I really don't need it ramming down my throat. Lots of things happened that day that should not have, gates being opened because of the fears of a what would happen outside is large part. That day changed football forever and the end result is a good thing for us all. Let them hold a memorial as they should and no we shouldn't forget what happened but don't ram it down my throat like everything tends to these days.

[T4E]

Why did the choir sing the theme to the Vicar of Dibley at the start??

[nowthen]

Not a good day to be off work. SSN- usually a haven when I am bored even if they do tell you the same thing over and over again- are showing the memorial live. It will not be long before we have a channel solely for these kinds of arbitrary tributes. The other week it was 'Princess Diana from the wrong side of the tracks' (The Sun), today it's this-even more special because it's a special round number year anniversary. Fair enough, grieve and remember a tragic event but so publicly, what's the point?

[Blue n White Rover]

Not a good day to be off work. SSN- usually a haven when I am bored even if they do tell you the same thing over and over again- are showing the memorial live. It will not be long before we have a channel solely for these kinds of arbitrary tributes. The other week it was 'Princess Diana from the wrong side of the tracks' (The Sun), today it's this-even more special because it's a special round number year anniversary. Fair enough, grieve and remember a tragic event but so publicly, what's the point?

It's public because it affected every single football fan at the time. Every player was affected by it, John Barnes, Brucey, King Kenny and many more. The public want to show their respects for it as IT SHOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED! Maybe to you it's just 96 players dying, but to me it's 96 footballing brothers that passed away that day, and 96 brothers to many more football fans. So they have every right to show their respects publicly!

JUSTICE FOR THE 96!

[theeggman]

It is probably true to say that the city of Liverpool is hooked on grief, but that seems to be the case with society in general rather than scousers in particular (bloody Diana, more recently Jade Goody)

It is probably true to say that some of the Liverpool fans contributed to the disaster, but most on here of a certain age will confess to being drunk at a football ground, and to pushing the person in front on an old fashioned terrace.

It is however very definitely true to say that those who profit from football should bear responsibility for taking care of those they profit from - unless they want to be viewed in the same light as drug or arms dealers.

It is also very definitely true that those who earn a living from maintaining public safety must take responsibility when they fail to maintain it.

The very worst thing about Hillsborough was that those who died were very likely not responsible for their own deaths at all. That is for me the definition of a tragedy.

[leftfooter]

Paul, your ability to be both compassionate and human whilst remaining rational is admirable, especially given the direction this thread is taking and the failure of others to do likewise.

DB I abridged your post just for the sake of brevity. Some of your points were fair.

I was considering answering point by point, but then I read blue n white rover's above posts and I thought - no need. He amplifies my point to a tee.

Mawkish platitudes combined with fatuous sloganeering. Victimhood becomes an end in itself and must therefore as a natural corollary equate to the righteousness of one's argument.

'Brothers' and children were killed and injured in the melee (no sisters?). Justice must be meted out to all officials in a spurious form of Divine retribution, warranted or not. It's for the victims you see - and to appease society's need to apportion blame for every infraction.

After that, I can almost see the finishing post of the lowest common denominator coming in to view.

Wait until you read his similarly themed 'more dead babies = righteousness is on the side of the Palestinian brothers (and sisters?)' argument.

Now that's a riot.

It is probably true to say that the city of Liverpool is hooked on grief, but that seems to be the case with society in general rather than scousers in particular (bloody Diana, more recently Jade Goody)

It is probably true to say that some of the Liverpool fans contributed to the disaster, but most on here of a certain age will confess to being drunk at a football ground, and to pushing the person in front on an old fashioned terrace.

It is however very definitely true to say that those who profit from football should bear responsibility for taking care of those they profit from - unless they want to be viewed in the same light as drug or arms dealers.

It is also very definitely true that those who earn a living from maintaining public safety must take responsibility when they fail to maintain it.

The very worst thing about Hillsborough was that those who died were very likely not responsible for their own deaths at all. That is for me the definition of a tragedy.

Fair enough, but there were two MAJOR high profile disasters involving English football fans during that particular era, both of which resulted in the deaths of scores of entirely innocent people.

Behind both, to varying degrees, was the behaviour of Liverpool supporters.

[Paul Mellelieu]

I've read some odious crapon this forum over the years, but without doubt this is a low point.

I just hope no-one connected with Liverpool reads this stuff.

I am ashamed. Please close this thread.

[stuwilky]

So it had nothing to do with Liverpool fans climbing over the fences and busting thier way in??

No.

It was the opening of a gate, and in doing so the failure to prevent most of those people entering the central "pen" in the Leppings Lane End.

At least South Yorkshire Police have finally admitted full responsibility for the tragedy, even if some people appear unable to grasp that.

[Blue n White Rover]

To the 96

From all Rovers fans...

YOU'LL NEVER WALK ALONE!

[Hughesy]

Is the red & white memorial flower thing, the one which our club donated?

[broadsword]

From what I've read, the only thing that differentiates the Bradford City disaster and Hillsborough is that in the latter case accountability for it has not been clearly established.

So is this the reason that we have more media focus on Hillsborough than Bradford City?

There doesn't seem to be equitable treatment. I have no problem with a minute's silence for the victims of Hillsborough, but it does seem wrong to give more prominence to one disaster than another. The people at Bradford were just everydays fans as well, who didn't make it back from a football match.

[bobsterbrfc]

I've read some odious crapon this forum over the years, but without doubt this is a low point.

I just hope no-one connected with Liverpool reads this stuff.

I am ashamed. Please close this thread.

I agree entirely, Liverpool is a wonderful city that has a special character and soul that is only acquired through hard times. Nowhere else in the country has that certain something, a type of "soul", that Liverpool has.

I was quietly proud that it was a figure in Blue 'n' White Halves who placed a wreath in front of the Kop on Saturday. Everyone could all learn a lot from Liverpudlians about Spirit and Community.

But, by all means, anybody who thinks they'd be alright with their own child's death being dismissed as inevitable, purely due to there being disorder amongst fellow supporters, please carry on....

Deus Nobis Haec Otia Fecit

[RovertheHill]

I'm sure nobody on here is belittling the loss of 96 lives and the terrible effect that had on their friends and families. Certainly I am not. It makes me sick to think of my family being in a situation like that and my sympathies are with them all. And I understand why there is increased media coverage on an anniversary like the 20th. I just genuinely don't understand the Justice for the 96 thing. I think it was Stuwilky who said that South Yorks police had admitted liability - clearly that isn't enough? However, I believe it is more than Liverpool football club has done regarding Heysel - they have never formally accepted responsibility for that? And more informed people than me on here say that the inquests/reports into Hillsborough absolve the fans and that is used as an argument for the fans being blameless. Yet presumably the same inquests/reports didn't produce the required justice? (And I do hope some people on here take that for what it is - genuine questioning and commenting and do not flame me about it)

[thenodrog]

I've read some odious crapon this forum over the years, but without doubt this is a low point.

I just hope no-one connected with Liverpool reads this stuff.

I am ashamed. Please close this thread.

Pardon Paul? I've read nothing but compassion and regret for the victims. Show me a post that offers anything but sympathy for the dead. Mostly young and all innocent. Any criticism is for all the living who seek to profit in some way. And there are plenty.

[riverside returns]

Whilst it is clearly necessary to accept that South Yorkshire Police are and have accepted liability or responsibility, that is to a series of errors relating to the policing of a football match and the massive error of opening the gate outside. It is also relevant that the fans outside numbered in excess of 5000 and with the capacity for the leppings lane end already reached, why were all these people outside. Can all the people present say with unreserved honesty that they were present, with a ticket and had arrived in ample time to enter the ground in a safe and orderly manner. I very much doubt that. To villify just the police is to have a wholly blinkered view of what went on, why people made certain decisions and what other actions could have been taken. Quite clearly, the railings were insuffucient in strength to hold the numbers and weight of persons crushing against them. It is clear from footage that the capacity in that standing area was exceeded by at least 25% and that had a massive effect on the end result.

I do not in any way belittle the grief and torment that the victims families have endured but there are a whole lot of people need to address their own part in this tragic incident.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

My condolances to the fans who lost their lives and to their familys but,

What 'justice' does the City of Liverpool want?.....is it just to point the finger?,the blame culture?

This was a tragedy that could have happened at ANY ground in the late 80's as many on here will testify.

There is NO one factor or person to blame for what happened that terrible day and anyone with an iota of sense will realise that.The people of Liverpool need to see beyond the anger and sorrow that still lingers and clouds the common sense of many.....

To the hundred's of not thousand's of Liverpool fans who arrived late from the traffic chaos and surrounding pubs which caused an almighty crush outside the Leppings Lane End turnstiles with their pushing, to the officers who probably through sheer panic at what was unfolding outside made the decision to open the gates to let them flood in.

[stuwilky]

I'm sure nobody on here is belittling the loss of 96 lives and the terrible effect that had on their friends and families. Certainly I am not. It makes me sick to think of my family being in a situation like that and my sympathies are with them all. And I understand why there is increased media coverage on an anniversary like the 20th. I just genuinely don't understand the Justice for the 96 thing. I think it was Stuwilky who said that South Yorks police had admitted liability - clearly that isn't enough? However, I believe it is more than Liverpool football club has done regarding Heysel - they have never formally accepted responsibility for that? And more informed people than me on here say that the inquests/reports into Hillsborough absolve the fans and that is used as an argument for the fans being blameless. Yet presumably the same inquests/reports didn't produce the required justice? (And I do hope some people on here take that for what it is - genuine questioning and commenting and do not flame me about it)

The Chief Constable only admitted liability yesterday as far as I am aware. Prior to that there had never actually been a full admission without caveats blaming other things even to the extent that the Officer in charge of policing publicly announced that Liverpool fans had forced open the gate that he personally gave the order to open.

Two decisions were made which contributed massively to (some would argue caused) the tragedy. The decision to open an exit gate and stop checking tickets, and the failure to close the tunnel leading to the central pen and direct people to the outer pens.

This photo demonstrates how much room there was in the pens to the right of the photo - had the police/stewards done what they had in previous years and dispersed supporters to the outer pens the outcome might have been different.

....with the capacity for the leppings lane end already reached, ....It is clear from footage that the capacity in that standing area was exceeded by at least 25% and that had a massive effect on the end result.

Take a look at the photo above....

This website http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/history/buildup1.shtm has an interesting set of information, not presented impartially however.

[leftfooter]

I've read some odious crapon this forum over the years, but without doubt this is a low point.

I just hope no-one connected with Liverpool reads this stuff.

I am ashamed. Please close this thread.

Your reaction is both depressingly immature and disingenuous.

People should be at liberty to express their opinion in a respectful manner - which they have done - without such calls for public debate to be stifled. In such a case I take my hat off to the mods on this occassion, who declined to close the thread just because one or two decided to hurl insults instead of engaging in reasoned debate.

Drog pointed to the hypocrisy of Liverpool fans on the one hand hand demanding 'justice' (despite the events of 1989 following all the appropriate legal channels) in the form of public accountability, whilst on the other accepting neither responsibility for the actions of thousands of their own fans in Sheffield nor for the events a few years earlier in Brussels, when it was Liverpool supporters that were directly responsible for the deaths of 39 Juventus fans.

The South Yorkshire police faced scores of negligence actions. The police chiefs lost their jobs and faced unsuccessful private manslaughter prosecutions. Scores of ordinary policemen suffered well chronicled cases of debilitating post-traumatic stress syndrome and had careers cut short as a result. Yet amid all the calls for accountability where are the Liverpool supporters prepared to stand up and be counted for their own actions, their own negligence or their own criminal actions?

Spartacus was no Scouser.

All bereaved should be allowed the space to grieve with dignity. No single group however has a monopoly on public grief and we should not be brow-beaten in to doing so by the media nor by the hawkers of socialised compassion, like yourself who wasn't even there and has no connection with the events, other than seeing it relayed on television just like the rest of us.

Yes I too was shocked after returning home from the Man City game, but I profoundly disagree with the revisionist manner in which the events are now being depicted. Once such an issue has been ventilated in the public forum in such an assertive and politicised manner (as it was today - shamefully - when the sports minister was appalingly heckled), it should then be laid open to the same forensic spirit of scrutiny and questioning afforded to other historical events in our recent history.

[leftfooter]

The Chief Constable only admitted liability yesterday as far as I am aware. Prior to that there had never actually been a full admission without caveats blaming other things even to the extent that the Officer in charge of policing publicly announced that Liverpool fans had forced open the gate that he personally gave the order to open.

Two decisions were made which contributed massively to (some would argue caused) the tragedy. The decision to open an exit gate and stop checking tickets, and the failure to close the tunnel leading to the central pen and direct people to the outer pens.

This photo demonstrates how much room there was in the pens to the right of the photo - had the police/stewards done what they had in previous years and dispersed supporters to the outer pens the outcome might have been different.

How sweet and good it must be to view the agony of a moment on a warm April day in 1989 through the rose-tinted spectacles of 2009.

Of course had you been in such a situation, with thousands of ticketless fans (many drunk and disorderly), faced with a crush in the immediate area adjacent to the back of the stand and the very real risk of massive public disorder in direct proximity to local residents' houses you would have managed the matter with the consumate skill and professionilism borne of hours of internet research on the matter, wouldn't you Stu?

[1864roverite]

As someone who actually survived Hillsborough I have read with utter disgust some of the comments on here.

96 football fans, yes like you and me, died because of a combination of both an inadequate stadium and inadequate policing. That's terrible enough but then for the authorities charged with protecting the public to then instigate a wholesale cover-up of the actual facts to cover their own arses is what drives the need to keep this fresh in the nation’s consciousness. Or do some of you think it’s OK for the authorities to get away with manslaughter?

Imagine for a second how you would feel if it was you or your friends / family that had been involved.

Aberdeen

Whilst there is no doubt whatsoever the loss of life was tragic, it wasnt just two factors you have highlighted that are the sole cause of the deaths of the 96 football supporters.

Hillsborough was a tragedy bourne out of a series of circumstantial elements.

Police planning and stewarding may have been an issue HOWEVER, in previous semi finals held at the ground AND with similar quantities of football supporters inside the ground their had NEVER been any such problems. So, WHY did it happen with Liverpool fans ?

On that basis alone the footbaling authorities, stewards and police are not to blame 100%.

Ticket issue for previous semi finals had been exactly the same as the Liverpool v Forest game. So WHY was there such a rush of Liverpool supporters for the central "pen" when tickets had their entry gates clearly printed on them ?

Despite the outpouring of grief, outrage and agreement of the report into the disaster, it stopped SHORT of any blaming of individuals who had been "NAMED and SHAMED" by fellow supporters as being involved in ticket touting or producing/offering tickets that were less than valid in their appearance (note, I stop short of claiming forgeries were in circulation).

So in relation to the above points, what part do these individuals play in taking some of the blame ? Add them to the equation and it does not place the blame 100% on the Police or match commander, in fact it greatly reduces it.

You simply cannot blame the layout of Hillsborough, it was tried and tested.

You cannot blame the Police 100%, the system was tried and tested.

You cannot blame 1 individual, 1 authority or any other thing. It was simply a culmination of issues, which sadly resulted in the loss of life.

Preventable ? I am sure it was.

Unnecessary ? Undoubtedly it was.

Once the Liverpool public accept that one of their own or indeed some of them, were involved in this sad event and responsible in some small way by producing, selling or touting tickets, then Liverpool will see Justice for the 96. It will never happen because although the good people of Liverpool like to come across as soul driven, honest, reliable, religious and ethical, EACH and EVERYONE of us know that simply isnt true.

Someone, somewhere earned money out of that tragedy and were counting their "hard earned cash" as Liverpool fans were carrying their dead out onto that pitch. Lets see some of the honesty and integrity from someone who is prepared to name them in public.

[stuwilky]

How sweet and good it must be to view the agony of a moment on a warm April day in 1989 through the rose-tinted spectacles of 2009.

Of course had you been in such a situation, with thousands of ticketless fans (many drunk and disorderly), faced with a crush in the immediate area adjacent to the back of the stand and the very real risk of massive public disorder in direct proximity to local residents' houses you would have managed the matter with the consumate skill and professionilism borne of hours of internet research on the matter, wouldn't you Stu?

I have no rose tinted spectacles leftfooter, however I do agree that it is a reasonable expectation that individuals are accountable for their actions. Especially when the successes of the fixture the previous year were largely ignored.

But its a debate and discussion that could go on for hours, and is pointless. You are entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine. The same information can lead to different conclusions, such is life.

[thenodrog]

Someone, somewhere earned money out of that tragedy

My initial point which I still stand by is that there are still odious individuals and businesses milking the tragedy and seeing Hillsborough as a long term cash cow.