[Archived] Sensitive Topic

[Paul Mellelieu]

Your reaction is both depressingly immature and disingenuous. PLEASE EXPLAIN.

People should be at liberty to express their opinion in a respectful manner - which they have done - RESPECTFUL! CAN'T YOU READ? without such calls for public debate to be stifled. In such a case I take my hat off to the mods on this occassion, who declined to close the thread just because one or two decided to hurl insults YOU SEEM TO BE HAPPY TO HURL INSULTS (SEE FIST LINE ABOVE) instead of engaging in reasoned debate. A REASONED DEBATE? YOU FAIL TO ANSWER A SINGLE POINT MADE AGAISNT YOU

Drog pointed to the hypocrisy of Liverpool fans on the one hand hand demanding 'justice' (despite the events of 1989 following all the appropriate legal channels) in the form of public accountability, whilst on the other accepting neither responsibility for the actions of thousands of their own fans in Sheffield PLEASE READ THE TAYLOR REPORT nor for the events a few years earlier in Brussels, when it was Liverpool supporters that were directly responsible for the deaths of 39 Juventus fans.

The South Yorkshire police faced scores of negligence actions. The police chiefs lost their jobs and faced unsuccessful private manslaughter prosecutions. Scores of ordinary policemen suffered well chronicled cases of debilitating post-traumatic stress syndrome and had careers cut short as a result. I BELIEVE THEY RECEIVED COMPENSATION Yet amid all the calls for accountability where are the Liverpool supporters prepared to stand up and be counted for their own actions, their own negligence or their own criminal actions? YOU ARE SPINNING A SUN-INSPIRED SET OF LIES

Spartacus was no Scouser. WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?

All bereaved should be allowed the space to grieve with dignity. No single group however has a monopoly on public grief and we should not be brow-beaten in to doing so by the media nor by the hawkers of socialised compassion, like yourself who wasn't even there and has no connection with the events, other than seeing it relayed on television just like the rest of us. I HAVE AN ONCE OF HUMANITY FOR OTHERS. YOU SEEM NOT TO.

Yes I too was shocked after returning home from the Man City game, but I profoundly disagree with the revisionist manner in which the events are now being depicted. PLEASE EXPLAIN Once such an issue has been ventilated in the public forum in such an assertive and politicised manner (as it was today - shamefully - when the sports minister was appalingly heckled), it should then be laid open to the same forensic spirit of scrutiny and questioning afforded to other historical events in our recent history.

What a crock of ######.

[Paul Mellelieu]

Pardon Paul? I've read nothing but compassion and regret for the victims. Show me a post that offers anything but sympathy for the dead. Mostly young and all innocent. Any criticism is for all the living who seek to profit in some way. And there are plenty.

That's nonsense and you know it. Many here have blamed Liverpool supporters for the deaths, when the official report was clear that wasn't the case. The families of the dead have been very clear in arguing that a) such accusations are a disgrace (including today at the Anfield service), and hurtful that the South Yorkshire Police had not admitted responsibility, and therefore justice had not been done.

What a disgrace you are.

[Mr Maureen]

That's nonsense and you know it. Many here have blamed Liverpool supporters for the deaths, when the official report was clear that wasn't the case. The families of the dead have been very clear in arguing that a) such accusations are a disgrace (including today at the Anfield service), and hurtful that the South Yorkshire Police had not admitted responsibility, and therefore justice had not been done.

What a disgrace you are.

39 Juventus supporters killed in 95 was a disgrace.

Liverpool supporters never accepting any blame for the deaths is still a disgrace.

96 killed at Hillsborough was a disgrace.

Liverpool supporters totally blaming others and again accepting not an ounce of responsibility is still a disgrace.

The justice for the 96 campaign is a disgracefull deluded smokescreen,created by guilt ridden Liverpool supporters.

Free Micheal Shields a disgrace full stop.

Paul I'm not sure of your age or if you were around at the time but you really need to stop basing your views on todays BBC News.

[stuwilky]

96 killed at Hillsborough was a disgrace.

Liverpool supporters totally blaming others and again accepting not an ounce of responsibility is still a disgrace.

Taylor also said they were blameless....

[bazza]

Whilst we're on the subject, just a point regarding blame. No one has yet mentioned my fourth group of people who, IMO, shoulder the most blame.

1) The police for opening the exit gate with no ticket check.

2) Liverpool supporters who tried to get into the ground without tickets.

3) Sheff Wed FC for poor stewarding and having stupid fences or cages for keeping human beings in like animals.

4) The two or three decades of badly behaved British people, commonly known as football hooligans, who thought it was fun to be violent and cause mayhem and for whom the monstrous cages were built to hold. These thousands of people have blood on their hands.

BTW, Leftfooter, are you by any chance a descendant of Tolstoy?

[rovgers]

I can't stand Liverpool FC, I've hated them since the 80's but today was meant to remember the 96 fans that died that day 20 years ago!

The arguements about who is to blame or whether or not Liverpool as a city is some how 'milking' the incident could go on for years but they should really kept for another day.

The final thing I'll say, on Saturday I'll be taking my daughter to the Stoke game, twenty years ago Trevor Hicks took his daughters to watch a game of football and they never returned home.

[Drummer Boy]

I can't stand Liverpool FC, I've hated them since the 80's but today was meant to remember the 96 fans that died that day 20 years ago!

The arguements about who is to blame or whether or not Liverpool as a city is some how 'milking' the incident could go on for years but they should really kept for another day.

The final thing I'll say, on Saturday I'll be taking my daughter to the Stoke game, twenty years ago Trevor Hicks took his daughters to watch a game of football and they never returned home.

What a dignified statement as we approach the end of this day - compassionate, logical and to the point. Well done that man!

Tomorrow we can resume the exercising of our prejudices and ill-informed conspiracy theories without unnecessary recourse to the facts - business as usual in fact!! No wonder ICBINF has shut.

[Tom]

My last word on this subject - the word disgrace has been branded around alot. What i do think is a real disgrace is the way Heysel is treated by LFC compared to Hillsborough.

If they could pin the blame somewhere else for that one maybe it would be a different story.

RIP the 96 who lost their lives, let the families mourn, the rest of us move on it's not our business who or what exactly is to blame.

Edit - is this thread really doing any good being left open

[Fife Rover]

Edit: I had intended to try and correct the many, many disgraceful comments that have been made by a variety of posters in regard to Man Utd and their alleged exploitation of the Munich tragedy, but after writing my longest ever post in an effort to adress the wrongs I suddenly thought "what's the use? People will always believe whatever mythology they wish to believe, and will always follow their blind prejudices whatever I say". So I simply erased it all, and as far as I am concerned you can all get on with living in your ignorance and prejudice. I am old enough to remember the truth, and as for the rest of you......just get on with your stupid and shocking ignorance.

[PAFELL]

Whilst we're on the subject, just a point regarding blame. No one has yet mentioned my fourth group of people who, IMO, shoulder the most blame.

1) The police for opening the exit gate with no ticket check.

2) Liverpool supporters who tried to get into the ground without tickets.

3) Sheff Wed FC for poor stewarding and having stupid fences or cages for keeping human beings in like animals.

4) The two or three decades of badly behaved British people, commonly known as football hooligans, who thought it was fun to be violent and cause mayhem and for whom the monstrous cages were built to hold. These thousands of people have blood on their hands.

BTW, Leftfooter, are you by any chance a descendant of Tolstoy?

The blame can wait for another day - but even then nothing would be done about it anyway.

The fact is 96 people went to watch a game of football and died doing something they loved doing.

Put aside rivalry etc - if that had been Rovers supporters that day who had died we would all expect other clubs to sympathise etc - thankfully it wasn't.

Since that day a lot has changed with regards to watching football, the stadia, not as much trouble as there used to be. You can take your kids to a game and know they will be safe. 20 years or so ago that was not the case.

Watching football today has not changed just because of what happened at Hillsbrough - There was Bradford, Heysell (sorry about spelling) and yes a lot of thugs who said enough is enough. A lot of people died watching football during that era that has made watching football safer today.

30 to 20 years ago, all football supporters were seen by the powers that be as scum. From getting to the game to leaving the game, home or away supporters of all clubs were despised. Sadly and despically the powers that be got woken up by those that died to understand that football supporters were people after all - people who enjoyed watching football.

The hooligans from yesterday did not help the decent supporter, which meant everybody was tarnished with the same brush and therefore invited the powers that be to hate the football supporter.

A lot of mothers lost their children at Hillsbrough, Bradford, Heysell at a game of football - all of these incidents warrant equal consideration and sympathy. Though I suppose that all three incidents can be summed up in this way - Hillsbrough, bad policing, Bradford, bad and unsafe stadia, Heysell - thugs being thugs. Right or wrong - agree or not agree - today should be remembered - not forgetting the other two incidents - as the day that 96 PEOPLE lost their lives watching a game of football they loved - which changed watching football for ever.

Lets forget the blame - that is for others to search for - instead, let us a football supporters of Rovers be thankful it was not at Ewood Park and that we know that we can go and watch the Rovers, home and away safely. Everybody on this board will have different views on this subject - a senstitve topic - so be it. Instead lets all be grateful for what we have got now, a safer envionment to watch the game we all love.

[they_think_its_all_rover]

I don't think the blame can be pointed at any one area - all in all it mainly happened due to a lack of common sense and selfishness.

The Police - Lacking common sense through not organising it properly, not knowing what to do, for opening the gate/not closing the tunnel and selfishness through trying to dismiss anything bad was happening at the time until it was too late.

The Liverpool fans - Lacking common sense and being selfish through trying to gain access without tickets.

Though I think the original post is right - it's a bit tight that no other disasters get the coverage in which Hillsbrough does - is it due to Liverpool being a big club? the media's love-fest with them? Liverpool being obsessed with mourning?

There have been plenty of disasters throughout history, why is this more important than any other disaster? when does it stop getting soo much public attention and just be a local thing to Liverpudlians?

The sinking of the Titanic doesn't get mourned over anymore, why is that any less important? you can understand why the World Wars do and will always do - but you get my point.

Heck, in Hull last year it was the 40th anniversary of the triple trawler tragedy, were 58 men lost their lives - it's never had national coverage other than when it actually happened, only gets mentioned in the local rag and the government still haven't even given any money towards a memorial for them. Why are their deaths less important?

[colin]

Well said Fife,

There seems to be some confusion over (i)the Hillsborough disaster and (ii)the Heysel Disaster & (iii)the reaction of the people of Liverpool to the former. They are in no way connected.

Please put onto one side your perceptions of the public of Liverpool to Hillsborough. If they had taken the attitude that "Oh well., that was a rum do and make no mistake about that" it wouldn't make one iota of difference to Hillsborough.

Hillsborough happened because football fans of all clubs were treated like low-life scum. I'm old enough to recollect being herded and bullied and put into pens with wire where you couldn't properly see a game of football.

It was just unlucky that the Liverpool fans at that game tipped the scales. As mentioned before by a number of poster, it could have been any of us. It just happened to be Liverpool.

It could have been the supporters of any number of clubs, including Rovers.

I started the preview of our game against Stoke. Quite quickly came a post asking "where can we drink before the game?"

It doesn't change too much does it?

(I hesitate to say) Cheers everyone

[neekoy]

It strikes me that there's three schools of thought on this thread.

I have issue with the complete hypocrisyy of Liverpool FC in that way that they deal with two very very similar tragedies, both of which they were heavily involved in. Surely the intense feeling of grief should apply to both situations?

Gordon and a few other have issues similar to the above in the way that the Media deal with these two (and several other) similar tragedies.

People like Ivan and Flopsy clearly take issue with the way that the Liverpool fans have been completely absolved of any blame. Yes - the "Truth" in the Sun was complete fabrication, but to assume that is the whole story is foolish and slightly obtuse.

I don't really see any of these viewpoints as being particularly disrespectful or callous towards the victims and their families.

Firstly let me thank the mods for not closing this thread, it is one of the best threads that has been on this site for a long long time. As someone who has absolutely NO connection other then a football supporter it has been very interesting to see some many viewpoints and even normal combantants actually AGREE.

I have to agree with TUGS, as someone who has no emotional response to this there is certainly no disrespect towards anyone. DROG original post was soley in reference to media coverage and even those who feel passionately one way or another must surely agree that he is right. If it is true that this incident is the most important milestone in football history (due to the changes that came around) then maybe this kind of media coverage is justified.

If not though, there must be some allowance for a slightly cynical viewpoint, looking past the tragedy of lost lives, to the media intentions of such a mass coverage.

The very worst thing about Hillsborough was that those who died were very likely not responsible for their own deaths at all. That is for me the definition of a tragedy.

This wins

[JC4LAB]

Given this is a precise 20 year anniversary I dont think there's anything OTT about the extent of this years coverage...

[thenodrog]

Given this is a precise 20 year anniversary I dont think there's anything OTT about the extent of this years coverage...

You might if you made comparison with the 20th anniversaries of valley Parade and Heyschell.

That's nonsense and you know it. Many here have blamed Liverpool supporters for the deaths, when the official report was clear that wasn't the case. The families of the dead have been very clear in arguing that a) such accusations are a disgrace (including today at the Anfield service), and hurtful that the South Yorkshire Police had not admitted responsibility, and therefore justice had not been done.

What a disgrace you are.

Read my post more slowly. I was referring to the victims who died only. You have gone off at a complete tangent. Why do you jump to such silly assumptions in your haste to direct your frothy indignation towards me?

[Paul Mellelieu]

You don't get it do you drog? On the 20th anniversary of a shocking tragedy you decide to;

a) claim that Liverpool fans were, in part, responsible for the 96 deaths; this was dismissed by the Taylor report and only contradicted, I believe by low-life Kelvin McKenzie and dealt with by Trevor Hicks at Anfield yesterday.

argue that somehow, Liverpool fans, the families of the dead, Liverpool FC is "milking" the occasion, the latter for financial gain: which part of that do you think isn't offensive?

c) argue that because some Liverpool fans were involved in violence that led to the Heysel dead, that somehow we should have less empathy for Liverpool fans.

Mr Maureen, think about what you wrote, "The justice for the 96 campaign is a disgracefull deluded smokescreen,created by guilt ridden Liverpool supporters." What do that actually mean? You say the campaign is "disgraceful". Well if your child had died that day, what would you do? Campaign for the truth I guess. And when as Taylor concluded, top-ranking police officers misled the enquiry, would you feel doubly cheated? I assume that's a yes too.

And not that it's relevant , but you asked: I've been going EP since the early 70s and as you'll see above I mange to stray a little further than the BBC. You apparently still believe the Sun, ten years after it admitted it had been wrong. Why not try joining the human race.

[Paul Mellelieu]

ONE of the experts on the Hillsborough disaster is an academic based at Queen's University, Belfast. PHIL SCRATON writes for the News Letter about what happened in the 1989 tragedy;

At malfunctioning turnstiles a severe crush became life-threatening and the police match commander instructed the opening of an exit gate without closing access to a steep tunnel down into already packed central pens. CCTV monitors gave him a clear view of the panic outside and the control box was close to the terrace inside.

In the central pens compression was vice-like. There was no relief sideways or onto the pitch. Police officers pushed fans back who tried in vain to climb the pitch-side fence. As people were dying, the match commander claimed fans had forced the exit gate causing an 'inrush', portraying the struggle for life as a pitch invasion. Immediately his lie was broadcast internationally, setting in train a sequence of appalling, unsubstantiated allegations.

Prime Minister Thatcher was briefed that deaths were due to a 'mob … tanked-up on drink'. Newspapers, notoriously The Sun, claimed that Liverpool fans had assaulted and urinated on 'brave cops' while stealing from the dead and dying. In this hostile and deceitful climate, the coroner ordered recording of blood alcohol levels of all who died including children – an unprecedented decision suggesting they had contributed to the tragedy.

Only 14 who died made it to hospital. All others were laid out in body bags on the stadium's gymnasium floor. There has been no comprehensive inquiry into the precise circumstances in which people died as the coroner imposed a cut-off point (3-15pm on the day) after which some would have been alive.

There has been no investigation into the medical and emergency response – significant because the emergency plan did not materialise. Nor was there an inquiry into the inhumane treatment of those identifying their loved ones at the gymnasium throughout the night – a process more akin to interrogation than identification.

As the myths of fans' violence gathered force, it became apparent that they originated with senior officers within the South Yorkshire Police. Against this orchestrated campaign, the Taylor Inquiry found that the 'main cause' of the disaster was 'overcrowding', the 'main reason' was 'police mismanagement' of the crowd. Hooliganism had played no part.

Police officers who had been heavily criticised by Taylor for their 'lack of candour' repeated their allegations at the longest inquests in legal history. The coroner directed a hesitant jury towards a majority accidental death verdict, stating it could accommodate serious negligence.

My concerns about police conduct increased following a television interview with a former officer. Referring to the police version of events, he used the word 'sanitised'. Eventually we met and walked the hills above Sheffield. He recalled the dreadful moments in the pens trying to save lives, his pain, his sorrow, his profound sense of failure and guilt.

He reflected on the evening of the disaster when police officers were instructed not to record events in pocket books, instead to submit hand-written 'recollections'. Encouraged to include emotions, comment and opinion, these were gathered by a review team of senior officers, submitted for comment to the force solicitors and returned to the head of the South Yorkshire Police management services.

Of the 154 sentences in the officers' account 57 were deleted, a further 28 substantially altered. A fax from the solicitors referred to the ongoing West Midlands Police investigation: "As before, the mention of a name without comment indicates that the statement has been read and we have no suggestions for review or alteration".

The words 'review' or 'alteration' were stunning. It amounted to an institutionalised process intended to deflect criticism of senior officers and operational policy towards the fans. Recollections of senior officers also were altered to favour the police.

[AggyBlue]

Hooliganism had played no part.

How would you describe the behaviour of fans trying to smash their way into the ground then?

[Plastic Head]

Can't remember anything about this as I got well tanked up after the city game.

[Paul Mellelieu]

How would you describe the behaviour of fans trying to smash their way into the ground then?

Evidence please.

[den]

How would you describe the behaviour of fans trying to smash their way into the ground then?

I'm not taking any sides here Aggy, but I think the point is that the causes of death was overcrowding. The decision to open the gates and allow the overcrowding in the centre pen was a decision made by the police. If they hadn't have taken that decision, the deaths inside the ground would not have happened. Makes no difference as to the state of a minority, or otherwise, of the fans. I'm just taking that from Paul's post above.

[thenodrog]

I'm not taking any sides here Aggy, but I think the point is that the causes of death was overcrowding. The decision to open the gates and allow the overcrowding in the centre pen was a decision made by the police. If they hadn't have taken that decision, the deaths inside the ground would not have happened. Makes no difference as to the state of a minority, or otherwise, of the fans. I'm just taking that from Paul's post above.

And if they'd pushed the latecoming mob back with horses and batons and possibly causing a death outside maybe they'd have been criticised for that too.

Have lessons been learned? Unlikely. Drunken and aggressive City and Celtic fans both gatecrashed Ewood in the years since because the police / club bottled the imposition of force to avoid the situation.

btw macca you say that I still don't get it. Well do you? I repeat my deepest sympathies are for the innocents killed at the front. Most were young, most got there in good time as requested. I hold certain sympathies for the bereaved relatives too. Can you get that into your skull? But the Liverpool fans that threatened to get out of hand outside many of whom had just fallen out of nearby pubs at the last minute, and any with forged tickets in those areas, I hold no sympathies for whatsoever. Blame the police all you like for their negligence and subsequent actions but I can guarantee one thing........... that police would not have been doing the pushing. We have all been in those situations and we must all know that a drunken rabble is not responsible or reasoning in any way.

What I hate is the probability that Lpool FC will 'trade' and ultimately profit on those victims forever in a way that I do not find fitting. Certainly don't forget the day but I do not wish to see the club gaining by it....... as I fear it is doing, and worse still will seek like MU to do so forever. Exploitation of the dead is not my cup of tea I'm afraid.

[T4E]

btw macca you say that I still don't get it. Well do you? I repeat my deepest sympathies are for the innocents killed at the front. Most were young, most got there in good time as requested.

Thats the tragic irony of the whole thing - the ones that paid the ultimate price were the ones that did arrive in a timely manner and as such were near enough to the front for them to bear the brunt of the crush.

[leftfooter]

You don't get it do you drog? On the 20th anniversary of a shocking tragedy you decide to;

a) claim that Liverpool fans were, in part, responsible for the 96 deaths; this was dismissed by the Taylor report and only contradicted, I believe by low-life Kelvin McKenzie and dealt with by Trevor Hicks at Anfield yesterday.

argue that somehow, Liverpool fans, the families of the dead, Liverpool FC is "milking" the occasion, the latter for financial gain: which part of that do you think isn't offensive?

c) argue that because some Liverpool fans were involved in violence that led to the Heysel dead, that somehow we should have less empathy for Liverpool fans.

Mr Maureen, think about what you wrote, "The justice for the 96 campaign is a disgracefull deluded smokescreen,created by guilt ridden Liverpool supporters." What do that actually mean? You say the campaign is "disgraceful". Well if your child had died that day, what would you do? Campaign for the truth I guess. And when as Taylor concluded, top-ranking police officers misled the enquiry, would you feel doubly cheated? I assume that's a yes too.

And not that it's relevant , but you asked: I've been going EP since the early 70s and as you'll see above I mange to stray a little further than the BBC. You apparently still believe the Sun, ten years after it admitted it had been wrong. Why not try joining the human race.

You know Paul, everyone's had their say, despite the fact that you got your ten cents worth in right before you so childishly demanded the thread then be closed.

It's clear there is a difference of opinion and if it wasn't for your rather unsavoury grandstanding the topic would have gently sunk to the bottom of the page by now.

If you must persist in promoting your revisionist version of history however, do not expect it to go unchallenged

There has been one inquest, two judicial inquiries and 2 UNSUCCESSFUL private manslaughter prosecutions of Duckinfield and his deputy. Which begs the question; why are you happy to accept Taylor's paternalistic exoneration of the Liverpool supporters as gospel on the one hand and yet incapable of accepting any other judicial finding that came out of that initial report and the two subsequent judicial investigations?

Yes 'Thatch and the Pigs' were complacent, unsympathetic and downright incompetent, but it has been examined and investigated to the point of an irreducible minimum. Law suits were filed, heads rolled, good police officers left the force never to return. Anyd yes, the dead were respectfully mourned, quite rightly by ALL football fans - not just those who appear to be consumed with a desire for vapid public gestures and angst ridden protestations whatever the subject.

And NOBODY is suggesting that those fans in the stadium itself were drunk and disorderly as you so spuriously insinuate.

You asked for evidence. There you go Mellers:

"...There is reliable evidence to suggest that a significant proportion of the Liverpool late-comers were indeed drunk, disorderly and violent. Merseyside Police mounted officerswere working alongside their South Yorkshire mounted colleagues. Three gave evidence to the public inquiry. Sgt Philip Smith, who had performed mounted duties at morethan 300 matches, said the attitude of the fans deterioratedfrom noon onwards: “I have never seen that amount of drinking in the street prior to a match.” PC Stephen Fry said the crowd “lost their reason”as the kick-off approached. His horse was hit several times on the face and the head. “I couldfeel him flinching under the blows”he added. PC Frank Gunnill said he felt his mount raised off the ground by theforce of a crowd ‘like a bar of soap being squeezed</b>..."

http://www.polfed.org/April09_05_Death_in_the_sunshine.pdf

Is this another dredged up Sun slur? Perhaps those NAMED police officers are part of the 'fascist cover-up' too Paul?

[AggyBlue]

Evidence please.

I'm not taking any sides here Aggy, but I think the point is that the causes of death was overcrowding. The decision to open the gates and allow the overcrowding in the centre pen was a decision made by the police. If they hadn't have taken that decision, the deaths inside the ground would not have happened. Makes no difference as to the state of a minority, or otherwise, of the fans. I'm just taking that from Paul's post above.

I was responding to Pauls comment that there was no hooliganism. I know what I saw, I sat there watching the event unfold live on BBC 1, during the live coverage they showed recorded coverage of fans trying to break down the big double wooden gates and I mean hundreds, not just a few. I saw them bulging and given time they would have broke through. The crush would still have happened.

Tragic, yes. Unavoidable, probably, Liverpool fans should shoulder some of the blame.