[Archived] Sensitive Topic

[Paul Mellelieu]

Who mentioned fascism? That's the BNP.

Good grief, what a load of pompous, pretentious guff. You are all over the place erecting straw men to knock down. You are unable to address even the simplest of points.

One witness statement doesn't add up to much tbh, and the quote from the copper has to be seen in the context of a coordinated campaign by the police to discredit the Liverpool fans: as I've shown above, police files and statements were amended at the request of high-ranking coppers. If you look for the quotes McKenzie suggests (to cover his own back) that was the case, as does the Taylor report, or don't you believe that? So yes there was a cover up. Google it.

I'm sure Liverpool some fans were drunk on the day (have you followed Rovers away?) but situations like this occur when there are large crowds in small spaces. The problem was a) the fences a and decision from a local cop (poor @#/?)

As for revisionist history, the official enquiry, concluded that the Liverpool fans were not responsible. As I said other than Kelvin McKenzie I don't know anyone else, in public life, who argues your point of view.

[Paul Mellelieu]

And if they'd pushed the latecoming mob back with horses and batons and possibly causing a death outside maybe they'd have been criticised for that too.

Have lessons been learned? Unlikely. Drunken and aggressive City and Celtic fans both gatecrashed Ewood in the years since because the police / club bottled the imposition of force to avoid the situation.

btw macca you say that I still don't get it. Well do you? I repeat my deepest sympathies are for the innocents killed at the front. YOU DIDN'T EVEN ACKNOWLEDGE THIS IN YOUR ORIGINAL POST Most were young, most got there in good time as requested. I hold certain sympathies for the bereaved relatives too. WHY ONLY CERTAIN SYMPATHIES? Can you get that into your skull? But the Liverpool fans that threatened to get out of hand outside many of whom had just fallen out of nearby pubs at the last minute ROVERS FANS AND MANY OTHERS HAVE DONE THIS TOO, and any with forged tickets in those areas, I hold no sympathies for whatsoever. WHY NOT? BEING DRUNK AND PUSHING AT A FOOTBALL MATCH SHOULDN'T LEAD TO 96 DEATHS.

Blame the police all you like for their negligence and subsequent actions (WHICH IS WHAT TAYLOR DID) but I can guarantee one thing........... that police would not have been doing the pushing (THEY WERE STOPPING PEOPLE GETTING ON TO THE PITCH). We have all been in those situations (INDEED, BUT WE'VE GOT AWAY SAFELY) and we must all know that a drunken rabble is not responsible or reasoning in any way.

What I hate is the probability that Lpool FC will 'trade' and ultimately profit on those victims forever in a way that I do not find fitting. (I DON'T BELIEVE A WORD OF THAT) Certainly don't forget the day but I do not wish to see the club gaining by it (HOW DO THEY GAIN FROM IT?)....... as I fear it is doing, and worse still will seek like MU to do so forever. Exploitation of the dead is not my cup of tea I'm afraid. AND NEITHER IS ADMITTING YOU'RE WRONG.

[leftfooter]

Who mentioned fascism? That's the BNP.

Good grief, what a load of pompous, pretentious guff. You are all over the place erecting straw men to knock down. You are unable to address even the simplest of points.

One witness statement doesn't add up to much tbh, and the quote from the copper has to be seen in the context of a coordinated campaign by the police to discredit the Liverpool fans: as I've shown above, police files and statements were amended at the request of high-ranking coppers. If you look for the quotes McKenzie suggests (to cover his own back) that was the case, as does the Taylor report, or don't you believe that? So yes there was a cover up. Google it.

I'm sure Liverpool some fans were drunk on the day (have you followed Rovers away?) but situations like this occur when there are large crowds in small spaces. The problem was a) the fences a and decision from a local cop (poor @#/?)

As for revisionist history, the official enquiry, concluded that the Liverpool fans were not responsible. As I said other than Kelvin McKenzie I don't know anyone else, in public life, who argues your point of view.

Paul the tragedy was indeed universal in its consequences.

That's my last word on the matter.

[Paul]

April 15th 1989 I sat in Nuttall Street watching Rovers dismantle the newly crowned Division Two Champions Manchester City in a 4 - 0 thrashing. I was on cloud nine, if there had been an aisle I would have danced in it. During the first half news filtered through of Liverpool fans causing trouble at Hillsborough and the match being abandoned. The talk around me was about rioting Scousers etc. Returning to my car I put on the radio to discover the scale and horror of the unfolding tragedy, to hear commentators almost weeping on the radio. By the time I got home I found myself weeping.

On the Monday I went to Anfield and left a scarf, doing nothing other than walking round the ground gazing over the pitch covered in tributes. Whenever I visit Anfield we stop at the memorial. On Saturday my eldest, who is 23, specifically asked if we could go to the memorial. We did and we both found ourselves filling up - again.

These fans did the same thing as me that day, they went to watch their team. I was dancing, rejoicing at a fabulous Rovers victory. They were dieing at the same time. I can never forget this and if one has any humanity it is hard to imagine how other fans can forget it or suggest Hillsborough is exploited. I don't know why the tragedy has a great effect on me when others in my life time have had a lesser impact. Perhaps I feel guilty. I feel connected in some strange manner.

I have to say I feel the opening post in this thread is nothing more than attention seeking. I am also disappointed in the opinions expressed by many other posters in this thread. I had always believed football fans are united by one thing - an understanding of what it means to us, it seems I was wrong. That's a sad thing to discover. 96 people died doing what we all love - watching football. I will never forget.

Liverpool people do have a habit of wallowing in self-pity, I can't argue with that but I don't think this is the case with regard to Hillsborough

[adopted scouser]

April 15th 1989 I sat in Nuttall Street watching Rovers dismantle the newly crowned Division Two Champions Manchester City in a 4 - 0 thrashing. I was on cloud nine, if there had been an aisle I would have danced in it. During the first half news filtered through of Liverpool fans causing trouble at Hillsborough and the match being abandoned. The talk around me was about rioting Scousers etc. Returning to my car I put on the radio to discover the scale and horror of the unfolding tragedy, to hear commentators almost weeping on the radio. By the time I got home I found myself weeping.

On the Monday I went to Anfield and left a scarf, doing nothing other than walking round the ground gazing over the pitch covered in tributes. Whenever I visit Anfield we stop at the memorial. On Saturday my eldest, who is 23, specifically asked if we could go to the memorial. We did and we both found ourselves filling up - again.

These fans did the same thing as me that day, they went to watch their team. I was dancing, rejoicing at a fabulous Rovers victory. They were dieing at the same time. I can never forget this and if one has any humanity it is hard to imagine how other fans can forget it or suggest Hillsborough is exploited. I don't know why the tragedy has a great effect on me when others in my life time have had a lesser impact. Perhaps I feel guilty. I feel connected in some strange manner.

I have to say I feel the opening post in this thread is nothing more than attention seeking. I am also disappointed in the opinions expressed by many other posters in this thread. I had always believed football fans are united by one thing - an understanding of what it means to us, it seems I was wrong. That's a sad thing to discover. 96 people died doing what we all love - watching football. I will never forget.

Liverpool people do have a habit of wallowing in self-pity, I can't argue with that but I don't think this is the case with regard to Hillsborough

An excellent post Paul, very eloquent.

Did you see the turn out at Anfield yesterday? incredibly moving, like the note on one of the many floral tributes ' Sarah 19 Victoria 15 - another year without you'.

[Ninjathunder]

April 15th 1989 I sat in Nuttall Street watching Rovers dismantle the newly crowned Division Two Champions Manchester City in a 4 - 0 thrashing. I was on cloud nine, if there had been an aisle I would have danced in it. During the first half news filtered through of Liverpool fans causing trouble at Hillsborough and the match being abandoned. The talk around me was about rioting Scousers etc. Returning to my car I put on the radio to discover the scale and horror of the unfolding tragedy, to hear commentators almost weeping on the radio. By the time I got home I found myself weeping.

On the Monday I went to Anfield and left a scarf, doing nothing other than walking round the ground gazing over the pitch covered in tributes. Whenever I visit Anfield we stop at the memorial. On Saturday my eldest, who is 23, specifically asked if we could go to the memorial. We did and we both found ourselves filling up - again.

These fans did the same thing as me that day, they went to watch their team. I was dancing, rejoicing at a fabulous Rovers victory. They were dieing at the same time. I can never forget this and if one has any humanity it is hard to imagine how other fans can forget it or suggest Hillsborough is exploited. I don't know why the tragedy has a great effect on me when others in my life time have had a lesser impact. Perhaps I feel guilty. I feel connected in some strange manner.

I have to say I feel the opening post in this thread is nothing more than attention seeking. I am also disappointed in the opinions expressed by many other posters in this thread. I had always believed football fans are united by one thing - an understanding of what it means to us, it seems I was wrong. That's a sad thing to discover. 96 people died doing what we all love - watching football. I will never forget.

Liverpool people do have a habit of wallowing in self-pity, I can't argue with that but I don't think this is the case with regard to Hillsborough

Excellent post Paul.

[Shabani]

This piece touches on Hillsbrough and is really quite good, has the instance of a policeman and a victim meeting by chance

http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2009/04/1...ng-has-changed/

[Paul]

An excellent post Paul, very eloquent.

Did you see the turn out at Anfield yesterday? incredibly moving, like the note on one of the many floral tributes ' Sarah 19 Victoria 15 - another year without you'.

I saw some of the coverage and thought it was excellent as was the news reporting of the memorial service. Visiting Anfield 20 years ago was so moving, it's very difficult to describe why I went, I just had to, some sort of need to do something. Perhaps for myself? I don't know, I still find it puzzling

[thenodrog]

............ Visiting Anfield 20 years ago was so moving, it's very difficult to describe why I went, I just had to, some sort of need to do something. Perhaps for myself? I don't know, I still find it puzzling

Understandably you are still very emotional Paul. I must say that I don't find you being drawn to Anfield puzzling at all. I wouldn't have gone personally as I might have felt an outsider. Collective grief is something that does affect us all. It's the reason why huge crowds lined Diana's funeral route for example, countless thousands of people just felt comforted to be there with the rest of the population watching the proceedings on TV.

What I do find a little puzzling is why you weren't drawn in the same way to lay a scarf at Valley Parade. Our club and the supporters of our club in those days were far closer in circumstance and background to Bradford City than to Liverpool FC. The Nuttall St stand where you were sitting in hindsight was just such a tinderbox and disaster waiting to happen.

btw you condemn my opening post as attention seeking but I've a feeling that you will come to accept my point of view in the fullness of time. You also condemn the opinions of 'many' others. Does the fact that there are many others not cause you to pause for thought just a little?

[colin]

What I do find a little puzzling is why you weren't drawn in the same way to lay a scarf at Valley Parade.

Thenodrog,

Please stop. Paul has said his piece. he has not said that he didn't go to Valley Parade, he has simply expressed his own feelings about Liverpool & Hillsborough. I'll echo others in saying that he did so with a simple eloquence which is quite rare on here.

Why you need to ask "well why you didn't you do x y & z" is a little beyond me. This is not a competition.

And I'm sorry if this seems like I'm rejoining our usual battles. I'm not trying to do that at all. Apologies if it seems that way. 96 people went to that game and died. I think it was 730 who were injured. If the die had been cast another way it would have been you; me; Paul, Plillipl; Den; Adopted Scouser; Shabani; Aggie Blue & 88 other who wouldn't have the pleasure of posting here.

Thanks

Colin

[Tris]

From Trevor Hicks' dignified address to the Memorial Service at Anfield yesterday - these words could have been written for this very thread. (Hicks lost two daughters in the tragedy).

The internet's a wonderful thing, and as I've said we've received messages of support from all over the world via that very vehicle. Unfortunately though, it is also a platform for the ill-informed. They can make hurtful comments, outrageous claims, and basically say what they like with very little prospect of reaction or control. The Hillsborough Families Support Group believe in free speech, and a person's right to opinion.

But, look at the net on any day - and that includes today - and there'll be loads of rubbish talked about Hillsborough. There'll be drunken fans to blame, the fans that broke down the gates that we know the police opened, the robbing of the dead and the dying, and similar as I said utter rubbish, that sometimes makes me wonder why we bother having a memorial service at all.

But then, the light of the candles comes into mind, and we turn the cheek, and we say - with some authority - and again we have the support of the community - when we say, well, some people are best ignored ... especially when they talk about things that really they don't know nothing about.

Amen to that.

[SouthAussieRover]

I think that's where this thread should be left.

That piece by Trevor Hicks say's it all.

[Billy Castell]

Does the Bradford disaster get headlines?

[American]

Mr Maureen, think about what you wrote, "The justice for the 96 campaign is a disgracefull deluded smokescreen,created by guilt ridden Liverpool supporters." What do that actually mean? You say the campaign is "disgraceful". Well if your child had died that day, what would you do? Campaign for the truth I guess. And when as Taylor concluded, top-ranking police officers misled the enquiry, would you feel doubly cheated? I assume that's a yes too.

And not that it's relevant , but you asked: I've been going EP since the early 70s and as you'll see above I mange to stray a little further than the BBC. You apparently still believe the Sun, ten years after it admitted it had been wrong. Why not try joining the human race.

I'd mourn privately the needless loss of my child's life, especially now that the conditions that allowed it to happen have now been dealt with.

T4E summed up the rest of my thoughts.

[blue phil]

Whilst we're on the subject, just a point regarding blame. No one has yet mentioned my fourth group of people who, IMO, shoulder the most blame.

1) The police for opening the exit gate with no ticket check.

2) Liverpool supporters who tried to get into the ground without tickets.

3) Sheff Wed FC for poor stewarding and having stupid fences or cages for keeping human beings in like animals.

4) The two or three decades of badly behaved British people, commonly known as football hooligans, who thought it was fun to be violent and cause mayhem and for whom the monstrous cages were built to hold. These thousands of people have blood on their hands.

All four are valid points and it has to be said that the behaviour of Liverpool fans who were intent on watching the game without tickets (why else would they be at the gates?) , although not necessarily constituting "hooliganism" in the generally accepted meaning of the word , did contribute to the subsequent events . Quite simply , they shouldn't have been there . If the hadn't have been the police would not have had to make the decision to prevent crushing outside the ground by opening the gates into the ground .

Furthermore the Liverpudlians never have faced up to this contribution that their fans made . Instead they class all their fans as entirely blameless . Maybe all those who died and were injured all were blameless - but many in and out of the ground were without tickets .

What happened after the chaos began is a sordid tale of incompetence on a staggering scale ; followed by a cover up and blatant lies from those in professional life that , unfortunately , has become a characteristic of British life - all too familiar in the present day . Tory establishment , Labour establishment ; no difference . Nobody is ever responsible , no-one ever accountable .

The reason why this event persists in the memory whilst that of Bradford wanes is all down to the controversy it produced . I can still remember where I was actually stood when I read the reports in the Sun newspaper ; even at the time the magnitude of the lies told was scarcely believable , like something out of a totalitarian state . Goebbels was all too right when he wrote about the bigger the lie told the easier it is to believe . Even today people believe that Murdoch and his lickspittle MacKenzie made valid points . How either of these people escaped prison and were allowed to continue plying their trade is a scandal in itself .

But 20 years on I'll readily admit to becoming heartily tired of all the overblown sentiment regarding the event . The scousers have forgotten that the traditional British way of remembering and mourning is best done in private or quietly at ceremonies and not done in public for the benefit of the cameras .

[Shabani]

Looks like Itandje is in trouble

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/ap...rvice-liverpool

'Goalkeeper Itandje laughed during tribute to Hillsborough dead'

[thenodrog]

Looks like Itandje is in trouble

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/ap...rvice-liverpool

'Goalkeeper Itandje laughed during tribute to Hillsborough dead'

He was wrong to pratt about in that manner BUT remember he was just 6 years old in 1989.

[ftry]

He was wrong to pratt about in that manner BUT remember he was just 6 years old in 1989.

Ironically, there were better behaved 6 year olds at the memorial service.

[Exiled_Rover]

Jeez, the guy doesn't do anything. It's been made out like he's stood up and taken a leak on the wreaths or something. Typical Scousers, always finding something to moan about.

[Billy Castell]

Stupid thing to do, but it isn't like he made some crack about playing sardines. Typical scousers and media whining on like they're the only lot who has had their chip shop bombed. Don't Liverpool fans occaisionally sing about the Munich air crash? Scousers are nothing special, but they are both arrogant and very thin skinned.

[Anti Euro Smiths Fan]

Sam Allardyce has now become a "hate figure" for Liverpool fans according to an article on an Anfield website.

Liverpool fans are angry and upset that in the week of the 20th Anniversary of the Hillsborough tragedy, Sam Allardyce and Alex Ferguson launched a combined attack on Rafa Benitez for an apparent 'gesture' at Anfield.

On the Liverpool website "All Things Red", Allardyce and Ferguson's attack on Benitez is described as "sickening", with the author of the article upset that both men launched the attack during a week that the club was mourning the loss of 96 of its fans.

Ominously the author of the piece says: "As Allardyce will soon find out, we don't forget things like this lightly."

A link to the article here

[thenodrog]

Sam Allardyce has now become a "hate figure" for Liverpool fans according to an article on an Anfield website.

Liverpool fans are angry and upset that in the week of the 20th Anniversary of the Hillsborough tragedy, Sam Allardyce and Alex Ferguson launched a combined attack on Rafa Benitez for an apparent 'gesture' at Anfield.

On the Liverpool website "All Things Red", Allardyce and Ferguson's attack on Benitez is described as "sickening", with the author of the article upset that both men launched the attack during a week that the club was mourning the loss of 96 of its fans.

Ominously the author of the piece says: "As Allardyce will soon find out, we don't forget things like this lightly."

A link to the article here

err like Benitez has more than a fleeting interest in the events of Hillsborough. Aren't mickey mousers stupid sods?

[Tom]

The biggest load of rubbish I've ever heard.

Absolute joke of a club.

Edited so as not to get people jumping on me for a flippant remark (as the scousers would)

[broadsword]

Benitez was right not to have a drink with Sam after the game because Sam played Samba up front?

And to bring Hillsborough into it is very cheap.

Sad.

[gumboots]

I never used to mind Liverpool but their 'fans' are getting on my boobies now. In fact I'd guess that they'll soon overtake Manchester United as the most hated club in the league. They really do seem to be annoying everyone.

I used to prefer Manure winning the league than any other club but only because it made our own pride of being one of only four clubs to win the Premier League. Now I'd prefer Manure to win it simply because I can't stand Liverpool and their new (?) deludedness any more! Grrr...

Personally i can't understand why Liverpool fans think Benitez is so wonderful. He's the only manager I know who makes my normally mil-mannered husband almost smash the tv whenever he gives an interview. He has cost Liverpool the title in my opinion with his chopping and changing of his team earlier in the season and his ill-times outburst at Ferguson. If I were a Liverpool fan I'd be questioning him and his tactics far more than they seem to.