[Archived] Stoke City Preview 18th April

[Iceman]

Still no mention of JW and the lack of investment that has caused much of the problems we see today. JW appointed Ince, he should be held accountable for this mess. Our midfield has been crying out for an over haul for almost 4 years now, so we have to make do with the @#/? we see today. All it needed yesterday was a little creativity to open up Stoke, 1 shot is disgraceful. We showed against Man United at OT that playing proper football is so much better.

[tony gale's mic]

It's well worth noting that despite the last two (well three) woeful performances this is the league table based on points per game since Sam took charge:

Now don't get me wrong, the fare served up these last couple of games was terrible stuff and Sam has to shoulder a fair amount of the blame. But when you look at the bigger picture that's still a job well done considering the sheer mess we were in when he came and some of the dross he's had to work with. Clearly he's not the perfect manager, but we wanted someone to get us out of this mess and Sam is still doing that. We were terrible against Spurs but ultimately it was his ugly brand of hoofball that helped get us out of that game. And let's not forget there were numerous games towards the start of his reign (Boro, Sunderland, City) where we were the better side but didn't pick up the three points, or the Man U game where we deserved a point, so these things even themselves out. It would also require a truly special effort to get relegated even from here when you see Boro and Hull's remaining fixtures, although who knows what will happen at St James' Park.

Like I said, some fingers should be pointed at our tactics for yesterday as they were clearly partly to blame for the insipid display. But maybe if we had players who could fire productive crosses into the box and string simple passes together then we would have left the Britannia with at least a point.

Whether Sam is the answer for next season I'm not sure. So far I feel events have vindicated those of us who didn't want him in the summer but who did want him once things had gone tits up. But who knows, he'll have a proper chance to ship out the deadwood and bring in some players to fit his vision, and lets hope City make a similar offer for RSC this time and we accept it like we shouldve done in January.

I also find it pretty amusing that some of the people who so stubbornly backed Ince almost to the end are the first ones laying so much of the blame at Allardyce's door this time round.

[Eddie]

Like I said, some fingers should be pointed at our tactics for yesterday as they were clearly partly to blame for the insipid display. But maybe if we had players who could fire productive crosses into the box and string simple passes together then we would have left the Britannia with at least a point.

No. Could have had Beckham in his prime out there and with nothing to aim at it would have come to nothing. The tactics don't suit the team.

[tony gale's mic]

No. Could have had Beckham in his prime out there and with nothing to aim at it would have come to nothing. The tactics don't suit the team.

Like I said the tactics have a big role to play in yesterday's debacle but even on a basic level had Andrews not made such a poor attempt at a pass chances are we would've left with a point simply because Stoke were creating so little. It's not just about the tactics. The performances were SEVERELY lacking yesterday too.

[Eddie]

Andrews - Givet - Robinson. Three errors led to that goal. Tell me a decent shot we had on target and I'll agree with you. If you don't work a goalkeeper in 180 minutes of football then the tactics are wrong. It's as simple as that for me.

[tony gale's mic]

Andrews - Givet - Robinson. Three errors led to that goal. Tell me a decent shot we had on target and I'll agree with you. If you don't work a goalkeeper in 180 minutes of football then the tactics are wrong. It's as simple as that for me.

Andrews - Givet - Robinson - still individual errors. Without which we would have left with a point.

One of us is claiming that tactics and performances were to blame for not getting any points yesterday, the other is appearing to claim that it's just the tactics that were to blame.

Yesterday the tactics were off the mark but it's not like we have free flowing skilful pacy players to play pretty football with either is there? And defensively I'd say our tactics were good, considering we barely had a peep out of the side with the third best home record in the league and it needed this series of errors to breach our defence. Going forward the tactics were pretty terrible, but then you can't talk about this without mentioning the injury list we've got either. Like I said, there were errors made, the most glaring one being the selection of Andrews and Mokoena in midfield if Dunn and Grella were fit enough to play. But to look at it so one sided and to say that it was just the tactics that were responsible yesterday is extremely poor judgement IMO, especially when you look at the bigger picture since he took charge.

[Iceman]

Much of the blame needs to be directed at the players. They are given a chance to impress, but they fail to take their chances. Its a big disgrace that professional players cant pass a ball, or create more chances of scoring. 4 years of good solid work, have been undone by a man(ince) who is bathing in the money he didnt deserve.

[thenodrog]

I haven't read anything later than this post, so apologies if it's all been said already.

The real problem ladies and gentlemen is the manager. He's alledgedly being paid ~40 grand a week to keep our club in this league, and he goes into vital games wanting to lose (Liverpool) or draw (Stoke). The 11 players wearing blue and white today were no worse players than the 11 wearing red and white. The blue and white options on the bench were way better than Stoke's meagre squad had to offer.

But we have a manager who is so bereft of tactical awareness - beyond the hump and chase - that we are doomed. And I'm the serial optimist around here.

No - the current muppet has had every opportunity to get us safe. His tactics have dragged us back into the mire. If we go down it's on his watch.

Tris you are so obviously preparing the ground for a full frontal assault on Allardyce when we are relegated as now seems fairly likely. But you cannot argue with the FACTS. Allardyce has been more successful than Paul Ince and thats that. Up to the Lpool match Allardyce's record would have had us in the top half of the table if if had been extrapolated through the season. What has derailed our survival bid quite simply is being hammered by injuries which have left with just one half arsed striker and a weak midfield. Macarthy is/was very talented but in a relegation scrap is worse than useless. This season I swear he has turned into Dwight Yorke. Allardyce has been hindered by injuries that have highlighted the paucity of our squad and that is not his fault at all.

No argument the tactics are horrible, but have been tailored to suit the situation through dire necessity. People righty question starting with Mokoena and Andrews in midfield but Stoke are a team of giants that make every game a battle and have now bludgeoned their way to 9 wins on their midden. How do you think the likes of midgets Tugay, Doran, Judge and the perrenial sick notes Dunny and Grella would have faired against Pullis's warriors?

Tell me you defended Paul Ince to the bitter end so do you still believe that we should have stuck with him? Conjecture on my part of course but imo we'd still be holding hands with WBA instead of 4th from bottom. Stoke would have loved the mystefying Ince tactic of continually playing short and square inbetween our pen area and the half way line.

Team selection in hindsight is easy. Yesterday I'd have taken a point before the match and but for a moment of madness by Andrews I'd have got ny wish.

btw Simon........ you can help Tris when he gets stuck with his reposte.

[Guest Kamy100]

I agree that the football is not great at the moment, in fact it is woeful but I still believe that Sam can get us out of this. We were doomed under Ince at least we are still in there with a chance of staying up.

What we really need is to get either Roberts or RSC fit, hopefully the latter, performances when RSC has been playing were generally better as he adept at holding the ball up and is perfect for the way Sam wants to play. What I will say is that Sam got it totally wrong yesterday, no way can you play a direct style with Benni up front it will just come straight back.

[Silencio]

What is the latest new from the club regarding RSC's injury. Is he going to be back from injury? We are desperate...

Is Dunn dropped or working back to fitness? I'm not his biggest fan but if he is fit then he has got to be playing when the only options are Moko and Andrews...

[den]

The real problem ladies and gentlemen is the manager. He's alledgedly being paid ~40 grand a week to keep our club in this league, and he goes into vital games wanting to lose (Liverpool) or draw (Stoke). The 11 players wearing blue and white today were no worse players than the 11 wearing red and white. The blue and white options on the bench were way better than Stoke's meagre squad had to offer.

But we have a manager who is so bereft of tactical awareness - beyond the hump and chase - that we are doomed. And I'm the serial optimist around here.

I thought we weren't proper fans if we continued to post criticisms of the manager Tris? The players and board all read this site so we should stop the whingeing and get behind him?

Anyway, it's totally wrong to say that all our current problems are down to Allardyce. There are lots of reasons - and you know that really.

[tonygreenbank]

I think its fair to say that Sam has has terrible luck with injuries since he`s been here. No Roque or Roberts recently has forced us to play a certain way which has been poor these last 2 and a bit games. No Diouf or Gamst against Liverpool. I am confident we will stay up but this will be repeated next season without huge investment in new players.

[Eddie]

Actually not having Roberts or Santa Cruz should have forced us to play a totally different way. That's the problem.

[Atty]

Still no mention of JW and the lack of investment that has caused much of the problems we see today. JW appointed Ince, he should be held accountable for this mess. Our midfield has been crying out for an over haul for almost 4 years now, so we have to make do with the @#/? we see today. All it needed yesterday was a little creativity to open up Stoke, 1 shot is disgraceful. We showed against Man United at OT that playing proper football is so much better.

Totally agreed JW HAS TO GO SIMPLE.

If 85% of our turnover is on wages to pay these players then he wants to go now.

And Pedersen smiling after playing like that yesterday if i could have got on the pitch I would of smacked the basterd. HE SHOULD NOT PLAY FOR US AGAIN all us that traveled to the game and was clearly embarrassed by the players and he smiling walking off the pitch the guy a waste of space.

2 years of lack of investment has lead to this and we are heading one way and that down either this year or next and it hurts watching our club die like this we really need to start making our voices herd.

When it comes to season ticket time im going to keep my powders dry.

Well and truly ###### off

[tony gale's mic]

JW isn't to blame for the lack of investment.

[jim mk2]

JW isn't to blame for the lack of investment.

Presumably he's been trying to persuade the Jersey people to release funds but has obviously been unsuccessful.

In which case he should resign.

[RevidgeBlue]

Sorry rev, but neither Ince or Alladyce is to blame if we go down.

The rot had set in well before either were appointed as managers. You can go back to November 2007 to see the start of the decline in results and pattern in play. As we all know who have watched the team for years, the failure started when Hughes failed in the summer of 2007 to sign a midfield general to take over from Tugay. We all know that Dunn's signing was only a stop gap appointment.

You can blame Hughes or the board for failing to finance a suitable creative central midfielder, but the writing has been on the wall for a long time, its just to many of us have buried our heads in the sand. It's no wonder that Hughes was off at the first opportunity.

There was a time when I would have said we were to good to go down, Im now of the opinion that we are not good enough to stay up. Our only saving grace is that there are teams who are worste than us.

If and I hope we do stay up, this summer should see the biggest shake up that this club has seen in a decade, failure to do so will surely see the same performances again and relegation a certainty.

Absolutely Alan, the primary blame falls fairly and squarely at the feet of the owners for failing to invest a bean in the squad over a number of years and in the process driving away a particularly successful manager for us in Mark Hughes.

What I meant, but perhaps didn't express it too well, was that even under those restrictions, we should have had enough about us not to be relegated this season having finished seventh last.

I thought generally our football was ok under Ince but he had to go, no question, because we were shipping three or four goals a game and he seemed to have no clue how to stop it. Under Sam, we have tightened up defensively but the football has been terrible and is seemingly getting worse and worse with no obvious signs of a spirited fight until the end of the season.

Like I say if the unthinkable happens, it's primarily down to the owners but both managers must take their share of responsibility.

Sam needed twenty seven points from twenty games when he took over. Quite doable in my view plus he had the January transfer window to make any additions or alterations he thought necessary. I can't believe midfield was left untouched.

Hopefully we will still stay up. Then the owners will have to finally pull their fingers out or we may be in for a repeat next season.

[Guest Vinjay606]

Presumably he's been trying to persuade the Jersey people to release funds but has obviously been unsuccessful.

In which case he should resign.

Fully agree. I'm not president of Williams fan club but I do believe he supports the club. His resignation might open people's eyes to the damage the lack of funding is doing. David Dein quit Arsenal over a takeover related reason perhaps Williams should do the same.

It depends what he cares about more his job or the club. I suppose if he was more concerned about the job he wouldn't be pro takeover as there's always the chance a buyer could bring in their own chairman.

No protests will happen though. People protest against Bill Fox who had virtually nothing but not our current owners. People need to stop confusing them with Jack Walker. If Jack sold the club to people like this they would be the most unpopular owners in football history.

[Exiled in Toronto]

I also find it pretty amusing that some of the people who so stubbornly backed Ince almost to the end are the first ones laying so much of the blame at Allardyce's door this time round.

In fact almost as amusing as the early Ince detractors being Sam's cheerleaders.

As I understood it, leaving aside Ince's first 8 games, the issues were:

- too many players selected out of position

- too many injuries (inferred crap training)

- clueless tactics

- the longer Ince was in charge, the worse we got

- defensive shambles

- crap at signings

Leaving aside Allardyces first 8 games, the issues are:

- too many players selected out of position

- too many injuries (now it appears we have a bunch of fat crocks)

- clueless tactics

- the more Sam has imposed his 'style' the worse we have got

- attacking shambles

- good at signings, but the owners chose not to give him any money

But for Newcastle and Middlesbrough kindly winning only 1 game each during the entirety of Allardyces reign to date, we would not have clawed free, for a while, as surely they cannot go to the end of the season like that. Kidd got us from bottom to 14th at one stage - did that make him a good manager?

The fact is, we are a vehicle for a vain and ambitious man desperate to prove Newcastle wrong, and that his 'tactics' work, irrespective of the players on the books.

[G Somerset Rover]

I think its fair to say that Sam has has terrible luck with injuries since he`s been here. No Roque or Roberts recently has forced us to play a certain way which has been poor these last 2 and a bit games. No Diouf or Gamst against Liverpool. I am confident we will stay up but this will be repeated next season without huge investment in new players.

And you call not having Gamst in the team a bad thing? . Gamst or Treacey? I sure as hell wouldn't like to call it. Why not put Warnock out wide? He can't do any worse than those two muppet's and is already playing out of position.

Match of the Day was painful last night. You knew there wasn't one single chance coming our way but were still left watching that dross.

And by the way Rev, I think we can safely say that if the owner's don't pull their fingers out then we are certainly in for a repeat next season. I'd go one better and say that we'll be certs for relegation next season if we do stay up this time round and yet again no investment is made.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

On the subject of injuries another big loss has been Emmo. When Sam signed Diouf I thought the plan was for Emmo to be moved into his best position- attacking centre midfield. He would have been the one player on the books with the pace and athleticism to run from deep and join the strikers. Plus his ability to fill in at full back and either flank during the course of a game I know he's not the most skilful but he's a worker. Of course we all know what happened - as soon as we sign Diouf Emmo's out for the season ! That's not Sams fault but given the number of sicknotes already in that position it was a massive blow.

To paraphase a poet, Auden ? It's not just your parents that f--- up your lives

[1864roverite]

Oh how my head hurts, I have a stiif neck and I am still numbed to the bone by a lack of a Rovers presence in the attacking third of the field.

You cannot blame McCarthy because he had absolutley NO support, from the wings there was NO supply line and from the midfield there was absolutley no back up.

Its being reported that Stoke had the game by the scruff of the neck, well in all honesty they didnt create much considering this. They had throw after throw and yet they didnt create ONE single scoring chance from them, the same from corners and free kicks. Rovers coped with almost 99% of everything that was thrown at them.

Midfield is where we lost the game. There were times when all Rovers needed was to put the foot on the ball yet we had NO end product.

Tugay was a spectator in the tunnel.

MGP, Andrews were both a waste although MGP did put in a few long throw ins. Diouf at least put in effort whilst The Axe went about his business quietly. I cant tell you what Warnock did because apart from the one woeful effort at crossing the ball just after half time he was simply anonymous.

We conceded a terrible goal. I reiterate ANDREWS caused it and therefore he takes the blame IMO. Givet may well have done better as so Robbo, but the reality of the situation is the ball shold NEVER have got there in the first place and all ANDREWS did was stand there with his hands on his hips.

Todays game at Spurs is massive for Rovers. We have to hope that Spurs win it.

Next weekend is the biggest game EVER for Rovers. 3 points and we may well see us keeping a 6 point gap between us and Boro as they surely will not get any points from Arsenal and man united and THEN its the Tyne tees derby at Newcastle. So by the end of all tht we could find ourselves safe from 2nd and 3rd spots in the relegation spots. More importantly, to keep a 4 point gap from the barcodes is imperative. They have pompy next up (after today) should they win today and then take 3 points next week then at 4pm Sunday Rovers are bottom 3 and will be under serious pressure. They then face Liverpool before Boro and again, if fate goes our way we could well find ourselves 6 points ahead of Newcastle with 3 to play - 2 of them at home and us needing 3 points to stay up.

Anyhow, back to yesterday.

The 3000 fans who travelled were magnificent. the stoke atmosphere was never on show until the end of the game when they sung their delilah song. I am wholly stunned with Stokes way of footballing prowess, although clearly effective it has turned me off big time. Their fans are the most fickle, if anyone can get their hands on the stoke fanzine oatcakes, read what they wrote about our own fans, club and players. It is as if they are the worlds biggest team and have won the full cabinet of world football trophies. In truth, stoke is a hole. Its dirty, squalid and is on a par with dingleland. Like Burnley, the road out of it is its best feature.

To Sam and the boys. When are you going to get it right ?

The tactics in defence were right, in fact I would say that Nelsen and Samba coped better than any other central pairing this season with the stoke throw in show. Its the midfield set up that is destroying us.

Next week, we must see one or either of Tugay, Dunn and Grella in the middle. I would further say that the game may well set the likes of Doran, he has pace to burn, can score and can create. We must hope that either Roberts or Cruz is fit, or indeed get one of the youngsters on the bench such as Cruz jnr or Blackman. At the very least they will balance the front end of our team and allow a little more movement.

Rovers lack flair, lack poise and lack the will to take a game by the balls. Wigan will come to frustrate and play on the break, they will play without fear as they are safe AND they will look to do the unthinkable, a double over Rovers.

Its time for action Rovers. Players are playing for the future of the club and their own futures. They have let a massive travelling support down BIG TIME and they owe us a performance.

[Gav]

Not really got much to add that hasn't already been said.

We went to Stoke for a point, once we'd gone a goal behind we had no plan B, then again we had no plan A really

Stoke are an industrious championship side at best, and we tried and failed to play then at their own game. Some of the stuff played yesterday was the worst football I've seen a long while and if we continue to play percentage football like that we're doomed for sure.

Just a word on the fans, for 45 minutes prior to the match the atmosphere under the stand was excellent, but after 30 minutes of watching that rubbish it completely deflated everyone there. The players talk about us being the 12th man, but my god they've got to give us something to shout about.

Worrying times ahead.

[den]

One more thought - I can't remember ever watching rovers, no matter how bad we have been over the years, not creating one single opening or opportunity during any game, in any division, - under any manager.

[Sysagent]

One word to describe Blackburn's performance yesterday:-

Shameful.