[Archived] Happy St Georges Day To All.....

[thenodrog]

Not only self-parody but self-flagellation. Some people obviously enjoy torturing themselves by continuing to live in a country they despise.

Nothing wrong with the country at all, just very many of it's citizens.

[jim mk2]

of it's citizens.

Its

Principally the 1.5m plus who read the Daily Mail every day. They should give emigration forms free with the rag every Saturday instead of CDs. Britain would be a far happier place without their unremitting miserablism.

[colin]

I can't help feeling though " What exactly are people celebrating?"

For certain England has produced numerous people who are globally famous and did something useful. A quick list:

Isaac Newton

Alan Turing

Isambard Kingdom Brunel

Winston Churchill

Charles Darwin

John Lennon

Paul MacCartney

Francis Bacon

Stephen Hawkins

William Shakespeare

William Wilberforce

William Blake

Sir Cliff*

Now then: what is it exactly that you want to celebrate about the fact that you were born in the same country as these people? What credit do you take?

I'm living in the same conurbation as the current football European Champions. It gives me little pleasure to say the least.

So, just why were you celebrating St George's day? Apart from everyone else did it and you just went along with the flow?

* Sir Cliff was born in India, so he's a bloomin' immigrant

[broadsword]

Some people just like being English?

To be born an Englishman is to win first prize in the lottery of life. Not quite so true today perhaps, but some people are just proud of where they come from, it's part of their identity.

Can't say I feel the same right now.

[leftfooter]

The ritualistic desire by some to first contextualise and then publicly repudiate England's cultural and religious inheritance is odd. Devoid of any confidence in our way of life, they appear at a loss to understand how and what such a celebration should really require of them.

England's unique historical legacy to both America and the rest of the world - free trade, private ownership, civility, the right of parliamentary dissent and an independent judiciary applying the common law represented the cresting of the ascent of Renaissance man, animated by the Enlightenment.

How far we are on the road to cultural concession? Well note that I used the past tense in the above paragraph and read Colin's previous post.

The point appears to have been reached where our shared cultural legacy is not just ignored by many of our fellow citizens, but disparaged in a self-hating attempt to appease those that refuse to even contemplate sharing it.

Without a shared national identity there can be no collective purpose to correct present mistakes and prepare the way for the future challenges.

[yoda]

is this the new icbinf section?

[Beta Ray Bill]

is this the new icbinf section?

Can't be. The thread hasn't been closed yet.

[philipl]

This thread would be over there if it were open.

Having spent little time in the north west in the past seven years and now being here most of my time near Blackpool since mid February caring for my mother (I am lucky- work is mostly where an internet connection is these days) my over riding impression has been very positive:

- everywhere looks much more affluent and vastly tidier than it did in 2002

- I had expected Blackburn to be a total dump visually. In fact most of the new buildings since 2002 are architecturally of much higher quality than the stuff built between the 60s and 90s and the town looks a lot better than I had expected or remembered

- The train service is vastly improved

- I have been very impressed by the health and caring services. Blackpool Victoria is the third largest general hospital in the UK but it is spotlessly clean and seems to work ok. Staff morale seems to be fine and the standard of care my mother received 24 hours a day was very good. The interface to the voluntary sector (hospice and McMillan Nurses and Marie Curie Nurses), to the Social Services and to the NHS in the Community (District Nurses and GP) has been pretty seemless.

- I wandered round Blackburn town centre on my own on two Friday nights. The atmosphere seemed relaxed with no under lying feeling of threat whatsoever.

Mum is fortunate in having a cancer that responds to chemo and seems to be pulling through strongly from two life threatening problems.

[jim mk2]

This thread would be over there if it were open.

Having spent little time in the north west in the past seven years and now being here most of my time near Blackpool since mid February caring for my mother (I am lucky- work is mostly where an internet connection is these days) my over riding impression has been very positive:

- everywhere looks much more affluent and vastly tidier than it did in 2002

- I had expected Blackburn to be a total dump visually. In fact most of the new buildings since 2002 are architecturally of much higher quality than the stuff built between the 60s and 90s and the town looks a lot better than I had expected or remembered

- The train service is vastly improved

- I have been very impressed by the health and caring services. Blackpool Victoria is the third largest general hospital in the UK but it is spotlessly clean and seems to work ok. Staff morale seems to be fine and the standard of care my mother received 24 hours a day was very good. The interface to the voluntary sector (hospice and McMillan Nurses and Marie Curie Nurses), to the Social Services and to the NHS in the Community (District Nurses and GP) has been pretty seemless.

- I wandered round Blackburn town centre on my own on two Friday nights. The atmosphere seemed relaxed with no under lying feeling of threat whatsoever.

Mum is fortunate in having a cancer that responds to chemo and seems to be pulling through strongly from two life threatening problems.

Good post. Outsiders returning to the town often have a more objective view and this confirms what other people have said to me in recent years and shows that Labour's commitment to improvements in public services during the past 12 years has been money well spent.

Hope your Mum's OK.

[blue phil]

Enoch Powell

Or Hitler

Now that's a toughie ......

[blue phil]

Isaac Newton

Alan Turing

Isambard Kingdom Brunel

Winston Churchill

Charles Darwin

John Lennon

Paul MacCartney

Francis Bacon

Stephen Hawkins

William Shakespeare

William Wilberforce

William Blake

Sir Cliff*

Now then: what is it exactly that you want to celebrate about the fact that you were born in the same country as these people? What credit do you take?

A shared identity and culture that stretches back a couple of millennia or so ; one that includes all who wish to be included regardless of their background , wealth or education , and regardless of what century they were born in , be it the 1st or 21st . The people you list are us and we are them . Without a national identity there would be none of the above careers to celebrate ; quite simply we would have been conquered centuries ago and undoubtedly a more repressive culture would have prevailed .

Your problem , Col , is that you believe patriotism and love for ones country can only produce entirely negative consequences . If you were capable of knowing and judging our history objectively you would not take the same sanctimonious stance . Everyone to a greater or lesser extent is the product of their culture and history and most of us believe that is worth celebrating - even in such times as these .

As for Sir Cliff being born in India ; so what ? It doesn't make him Indian . I think we all know deep down that a person's birthright and allegiance is more important than the patch of land he was born on .

Those of us who live in Blackburn know that more than most .......

[Ninjathunder]

I'm not seeing the football in this thread. It needs closing or moving to ICBINF, which is effectively the same thing.

[blue phil]

A big Ahhhhhh for Tooting - he's getting all offended

[philipl]

7 of the 13 in Colin's list were sns of immigrants or have a place of birth outside the UK.

Our heritage is as a nation of immigrants - our history has always been shaped by immigrants.

St George never came within 1,000 miles of English shores so is a bit of an exception in that regard.

[jim mk2]

Our heritage is as a nation of immigrants - our history has always been shaped by immigrants.

True but don't tell Right Hon BNP member for Bastwell blue phil. What passes for his brain might blow a fuse.

[AggyBlue]

Our heritage is as a nation of immigrants

You could say that about every single country on the planet bar one.

[Anti-Dingle-Brigade]

You could say that about every single country on the planet bar one.

Depends what theory of the evolution and dispersion of humans you choose to believe, that one.

[leftfooter]

This thread would be over there if it were open.

Having spent little time in the north west in the past seven years and now being here most of my time near Blackpool since mid February caring for my mother (I am lucky- work is mostly where an internet connection is these days) my over riding impression has been very positive:

- everywhere looks much more affluent and vastly tidier than it did in 2002

- I had expected Blackburn to be a total dump visually. In fact most of the new buildings since 2002 are architecturally of much higher quality than the stuff built between the 60s and 90s and the town looks a lot better than I had expected or remembered

- The train service is vastly improved

- I have been very impressed by the health and caring services. Blackpool Victoria is the third largest general hospital in the UK but it is spotlessly clean and seems to work ok. Staff morale seems to be fine and the standard of care my mother received 24 hours a day was very good. The interface to the voluntary sector (hospice and McMillan Nurses and Marie Curie Nurses), to the Social Services and to the NHS in the Community (District Nurses and GP) has been pretty seemless.

- I wandered round Blackburn town centre on my own on two Friday nights. The atmosphere seemed relaxed with no under lying feeling of threat whatsoever.

Mum is fortunate in having a cancer that responds to chemo and seems to be pulling through strongly from two life threatening problems.

Best wishes for your mother, which I'm sure is shared by all contributors and hats off to you Philip for showing such filial piety in what must be a difficult time.

It's good to read that your experiences vis-à-vis the public services have been constructive, but don't lose sight of the long-term situation. Government deficit is about to surpass the unprecedented (in peacetime) level of 12.4% of GDP. That's quadruple the maximum acceptable level for a properly managed economy.

The deficit will not drop, I'd wager in the subsequent years, until perhaps 2013 at the earliest. Three -quarters of this huge-deficit is structural, not cyclical, meaning of course that when the economy starts to expand again the deficit will still be there. Unless anyone has a better solution, this can only be resolved by swingeing cuts in government expenditure or of course by an across the board rise in taxation. Probably it will be both. Last Wednesday our Government, obviously procrastinating until after the election, chose neither option. The tax the rich tax hike (set anyway to take effect next year) was a mere sop to the lumpen tribal class-warriors and will cause barely a ripple in the reservoir of debt and government waste.

Meanwhile the bond market is reeling at the Chancellor's casual announcement that next years fiscal deficit will top £175 billion, an amount not even within the contemplation of the markets. What's the government's solution?....£220b issued in bonds - guaranteed to saturate the market in printed paper loading the weight on to gilts and sterling.

Such munificent public provisions unfortunately are a chimera of our consumer driven and Nu Labour's imagination. It is destined to disappear once the country has sobered up from its easy-money fantasy.

[Bazzanotsogreat]

7 of the 13 in Colin's list were sns of immigrants or have a place of birth outside the UK.

Our heritage is as a nation of immigrants - our history has always been shaped by immigrants.

St George never came within 1,000 miles of English shores so is a bit of an exception in that regard.

This thread will be closed soon, so I might a well get my post in whilst it is still open.

PhililpL, you are correct on one- hand, however you are totally missing the point of a shared cultural heritage that the entire aforementioned share.

The difference between the ‘Great Britain’s’ on your list & the wave of immigrants that are piling into our tiny Island is our shared western values of democracy, secularism, enlightenment and ultimately the willingness to accept our way of life.

Many of the new wave of immigrants stem from cultures that are simply incompatible to our own.

Furthermore why should Englishmen not enjoy our fine History- without the input of this once Great Nation the world would currently be a far poorer place to live.

To Colin, I find your attempt to appease your inexplicable ‘personal sense of guilt’ post simply embarrassing. How is it that you have never spoken out against St Patrick’s, St David’s or St Andrews’s day?

[leftfooter]

What utter fatuous nonsense from Colin.... Winston Churchill is uugh, either 'globally famous and/or did something useful'

If this is the sort of vapid revisionist drivel being taught in the universities these days, no wonder such a stigma is attached to the national flag. As Bluephil indicates, without Churchill's uniquely English character (amplified by his American heritage), Orwellian totalitarianism would be our current reality.

Getting back to Bellamy11's original point, it's difficult to imagine such hand-wringing historical contextualisation amongst the Scots, Welsh or Irish before indulging in their national day of celebration. So what if St Patrick was no Irishman? That doesn't mean the Irish feel like they have to prove their internationalist credentials in order to allow themselves to celebrate St Patrick's Day!

Without the collective will to affirm what we have, and to show our determination not to relinquish it to those either so envious of what we have they wish to destroy it, or those ingrates who are wilfully ignorant of our history, our civilisation will not be sustainable.

We should protect the good things that we have inherited, allowing no concessions to those who would prefer to swap citizenship for subjection and nationality for submissive religious or politically correct conformity.

[adopted scouser]

For Cheeky Sidders;

"Tell him we're not gods but Englishmen, which is the next best thing"

[thenodrog]

As for Sir Cliff being born in India ; so what ? It doesn't make him Indian . I think we all know deep down that a person's birthright and allegiance is more important than the patch of land he was born on .

And as for him even being in that list!!!!!!

Lennon and McArtney don't belong there either for writing a few catchy tunes.... with the latter nothing more than a pompous prig.

[ABBEY]

proud?

[colin]

Some interesting replies to comments I never made

Blue Phil wrote on April 25th at 15:28

Your problem , Col , is that you believe patriotism and love for ones country can only produce entirely negative consequences . If you were capable of knowing and judging our history objectively you would not take the same sanctimonious stance .

Bazzanotsogreat wrote on April 25th at 20:12

To Colin, I find your attempt to appease your inexplicable ‘personal sense of guilt’ post simply embarrassing. How is it that you have never spoken out against St Patrick’s, St David’s or St Andrews’s day?

leftfooter wrote on April 25th at 20:36

What utter fatuous nonsense from Colin.... Winston Churchill is uugh, either 'globally famous and/or did something useful'

My post on April 24th at 22:03 was not a statement but a question. As such it was just asking for answers. Not an opinion. I'm not at all sure why you three decided to take umbrage and post negative comments.

Please read it again. Extra English comprehension lessons all round, and 30 minutes in the "naughty corner" for the three of you.

Take care.

[gillibrand]

Some interesting replies to comments I never made

Blue Phil wrote on April 25th at 15:28

Bazzanotsogreat wrote on April 25th at 20:12

leftfooter wrote on April 25th at 20:36

My post on April 24th at 22:03 was not a statement but a question. As such it was just asking for answers. Not an opinion. I'm not at all sure why you three decided to take umbrage and post negative comments.

Please read it again. Extra English comprehension lessons all round, and 30 minutes in the "naughty corner" for the three of you.

Take care.

Why don't you give it a rest and stop winding people up!