[Archived] End Of Manc Dominance?

[DE.]

The dominant position of English football ultimately relies on the superiority of Anglo-Saxon market-oriented business model, over that of close-knit family firms on the Continent or the other alternatives.

Manchester United and Liverpool are currently the two most successful English clubs in England and European competition. Placed in context, United and Liverpool's respective successes represent the victory of American capitalism over Russian oligarchic wealth and inherited petro-dollar nepotism. Yet their owners are reviled by fans, who brandish anti-American placards and hold impromptu marches, like one would witness in some tinpot South American dictatorship or in dusty Iranian provincial cities. Such xenophobia is stoked by left-leaning Guardian journalists who instinctively distrust both 'the Americans' and capitalists.

Whilst at Liverpool and United a clear line is drawn between business and personal, the likes of Man City, Chelsea and now Portsmouth are at the mercy of the personal whims and capriciousness of their absolutist owners. Released from this entirely personal bind, clubs based on the American model can implement long-term planning and execute a rational business strategy.

Whereas the American capitalist model promotes enlightened concepts such as transparency, divisions of responsibility, accountability, the alternatives reflect a hive of Byzantine intrigue and Machiavellian power which lends itself to instability and as a consequence fosters uncertainty. Whilst some American companies fit the latter paradigm, they tend to be exceptions to the rule and will ultimately fall by the wayside.

Those fans currently clamouring for their clubs to be bought by Russian Kleptocrats or Middle Eastern 'royalty' with dubious connections and unsavoury human rights practices should realise the Faustian pact they are seeking. To achieve long-term success, clubs will have to either mature into the American model or collapse under the weight of their own flaws and contradictions. Kremlin stooges or shady princes generally make unreliable business partners.

Insanity.

[Anti Euro Smiths Fan]

You're mentally ill.

That's the type of unpleasant personal insult which doesn't enhance this messageboard.

Just because you have different views and opinions to leftfooter it doesn't make him "mentally ill". Coming from a chap who I believe wants to be a Doctor, I hope that you don't automatically tell your patients "You're mentally ill" if they have a view or opinion that you don't agree with.

As it happens I wouldn't join in with the praise that leftfooter has heaped on the Americans - I'm not a fan of the Glazers or Hicks and Gillet - but just as I disagreed with leftfooter about Joey Barton, who I'd be horrified to see in a Rovers shirt, I fully respect leftfooter's right to put forward his opinions.

Resorting to personal insults and shooting the messenger is a sign of being unable to properly articulate a civilised and reasonable counter-argument.

In the days when I was allowed to talk about immigration on 'ICBINF', there was a small section of individuals - the usual suspects - who never put forward decent arguments in favour of immigration, never talked about any of the "benefits" that they thought it made to our society, but instead resorted to personal insults towards those people with different views to themselves.

A messageboard should be about a range of different opinions. When the only response that someone can come up with is a personal insult it shows an inability to formulate a decent set of arguments.

Going back to Manchester United, I was pleased that Barcelona won the Champions League final and completely dominated the midfield from the 10th minute to the 90th minute. After Barcelona scored the opening goal, I thought that Carrick, Anderson and to a lesser extent Giggs all had poor games in the middle of the pitch and gave the ball away cheaply.

The stats from the game back up the fact that Barcelona were much better in possession at keeping the ball. Michael Carrick's pass completion rate was only 74%, whereas Iniesta delivered 65 of his 69 passes to the right place. Lionel Messi failed to complete only 3 of his 57 passes. Xavi passed 80 times and reached his target on 75 of those occasions.

Midfield is often where matches are won and lost, especially at the highest level. Barcelona's excellent passing allowed them to dictate the pace of the game. Pep Guardiola's team displayed greater flexibility, with the Barcelona players comfortable with the ball in different areas of the pitch.

It is true that Barcelona didn't play well in the 2nd leg of their semi-final at Stamford Bridge, but this was partly because Chelsea defended deep and got plenty of men behind the ball. Although Barcelona, with 10 men, had better possession of the ball than Chelsea, the Spanish team struggled to create clear-cut chances against Chelsea's solid defence.

If Chelsea had played a more open game, committing men forward rather than defending deep, then Barcelona with their superior possession would have found it easier to create chances. Tactically Guus Hiddink is often very good. He only had one defeat in a 90 minute match in his 21 games with Chelsea - a 1-0 defeat against Spurs at White Hart Lane in March, when Chelsea were unfortunate to lose the game.

Brett Emerton - who played for Hiddink with Australia - has sung the praises of Guus and rates him as being the best manager he's played for. Certainly better than Mark Hughes. Hiddink won the European Cup (and the treble) in his first season in charge of PSV Eindhoven in 1988 and was unfortunate that his time in charge of the Dutch national team was marred by the individual players publicly arguing with each other - Holland's black and white players fighting like alley cats.

Pleased though I was that Barcelona won the Champions League final, I was disappointed to read that there had been a tragedy afterwards with four Barcelona supporters killed and ten more wounded.

(See the link here)

The Nigerian Manchester United fan who confessed to doing this on purpose, killing four people, demonstrated an appalling and disgraceful act of rage because he couldn't accept defeat in a football match.

It is sad too when people cannot accept other people's right to their views and opinions and instead resort to personal insults when they are unable to formulate a civilised argument.

[tony gale's mic]

That's the type of unpleasant personal insult which doesn't enhance this messageboard.

Just because you have different views and opinions to leftfooter it doesn't make him "mentally ill". Coming from a chap who I believe wants to be a Doctor, I hope that you don't automatically tell your patients "You're mentally ill" if they have a view or opinion that you don't agree with.

As it happens I wouldn't join in with the praise that leftfooter has heaped on the Americans - I'm not a fan of the Glazers or Hicks and Gillet - but just as I disagreed with leftfooter about Joey Barton, who I'd be horrified to see in a Rovers shirt, I fully respect leftfooter's right to put forward his opinions.

Resorting to personal insults and shooting the messenger is a sign of being unable to properly articulate a civilised and reasonable counter-argument.

In the days when I was allowed to talk about immigration on 'ICBINF', there was a small section of individuals - the usual suspects - who never put forward decent arguments in favour of immigration, never talked about any of the "benefits" that they thought it made to our society, but instead resorted to personal insults towards those people with different views to themselves.

A messageboard should be about a range of different opinions. When the only response that someone can come up with is a personal insult it shows an inability to formulate a decent set of arguments.

It is sad too when people cannot accept other people's right to their views and opinions and instead resort to personal insults when they are unable to formulate a civilised argument.

When someone clearly has a set agenda and is determined on bringing it into any thread imaginable, even when it's not remotely relevant, then that doesn't enhance messageboard discussion. The post was so utterly warped in its mindset that I don't feel it deserved to be credited with a reasoned reply. If you look at the vast majority of my posts they're logical constructed arguments against things I disagree with. If it's xenophobic claptrap like leftfooter spouted there then I see things a little differently, especially when it wasn't remotely relevant to this thread and he was just looking for an excuse to beat his far right drum. Much like Vinjay used every thread to beat the Rovers takeover drum.

It has absolutely nothing to do with a "western vs eastern" corporate model, and what is generally accepted amongst onlookers is that United will be fine unless they stop winning things for two or three years, then things could quickly fall apart. Considering it won't be too long before Ferguson the architect of their success eventually retires, it's not that good a model. Hicks and Gillet are obvious exceptions too...but then these things are so obvious to anyone whose views aren't completely clouded by matters of race (heck, even you can see them), that I am within my rights to question the mental processes that go on in the head of a chap like leftfooter. Obviously the insult wasn't to be taken literally but I do think he's a sad, sad man if those issues form such a large part of how he sees the world.

[SouthAussieRover]

Bye bye Sniffy.

[leftfooter]

My god you really do manage to bring your far right @#/? into the most irrelevant of threads. You're mentally ill.

Since the Glazers took over at Manchester United, the club has gone from strength to strength. Compared with the upheavals and inconsistency at Chelsea, United during this time have been a model of stability on and off the field. I put this down to their application of American market orientated capitalism and the spirit of free enterprise over absolutist centralised control.

Whilst the entertainment factor cannot be denied, that is merely the means to a greater end of course, namely generating profits for all involved: the players, the manager - but mainly the owners. Whether that is desirable, or a sad reflection of the modern game is a matter of conjecture. But it is a matter of fact. Hardly 'far-right sh** in my opinion, but then again JIMK2 seems to agree with you, which might say more about your opinion than mine on this subject.

It's ironic that those that promote the virtues of tolerance and understanding in the abstract are the rudest and least tolerant people when they happen to address their fellow interlocutors with whom they disagree. As for me being xenophobic? That's how I would describe the rabble that marched around Old Trafford with their 'Yanks Out' banners not too long ago - until virtually instant success followed.

A similar logic pervades the Anfield hoi poloi, but then again, they only managed runners up spot. I wonder how many of them would pass up consecutive League titles and trips to Moscow and Rome to 'save the soul' of the club they love after it has been 'betrayed' (see David Conn Guardian article) in the name of American capitalists? Besides which, my understanding is that the Glazers are Americans of Jewish Lithuanian extraction, 'foreigners' on both counts, which makes your charge of xenophobia even more preposterous.

[philipl]

leftwinger gets ever more laughable with every post.

[T4E]

At £150m a year, the gap between Real Madrid and the Mancs is going to get enormous very quickly.

I bet you £50 United go further in the Champions League next year than Madrid do.

[philipl]

I bet you £50 United go further in the Champions League next year than Madrid do.

We all knpw that clubs frequently do not use financal advantage well. But the money gap between Real Madrid and Man U is now greater than the gap between Man U and the Rovers.

[T4E]

We all knpw that clubs frequently do not use financal advantage well. But the money gap between Real Madrid and Man U is now greater than the gap between Man U and the Rovers.

The money gap will mean the square root of (Please don't use that word again) all if United keep outperforming them.

Try to retain focus Philip. Money in football is a means to an end - success is the currency all clubs want to deal in.

[Ozz]

leftwinger gets ever more laughable with every post.

I think you meant leftfooter.

[philipl]

There is a question mark on the end of the thread title in case you haven't noticed.

I belive there are plenty of pointers to Man U having passed their high water point in this season just gone and that is without copying here the posts which mocked the idea of Tevez signing for City.

[alexanders]

I can see Manchester United struggle with our Christine Ronaldo next year.

I actually think Liverpool, Chelsea or Arsenal will clinch the title.

Of course it depends on who United bring in, but at this time I don't see any footballer which will contribute the same amount with goals and assists as Ronaldo have.

If they do bring in a superstar, it will take some time to adjust to Premier League.

[DanLad]

I can see Manchester United struggle with our Christine Ronaldo next year.

I actually think Liverpool, Chelsea or Arsenal will clinch the title.

Of course it depends on who United bring in, but at this time I don't see any footballer which will contribute the same amount with goals and assists as Ronaldo have.

If they do bring in a superstar, it will take some time to adjust to Premier League.

With that money they can bring in 3 really top notch players. 1 replacement for Mr Vanity, one ultimately replacing Dimitar Greasytop and one proper ball winning midfielder. They could do very well out of it, unfortunately.

[modes98]

If Chelsea spend well they will rise to the top. They had key players missing for large periods last year.

Liverpool had a great season, one that they won't be able to repeat with limited, to no, transfer funds.

Arsenal are another that if they spend wisely could be up there.

I think United will get the majority of the money and buy well, when has ferguson spent badly on outfield players?

Anybody writing United off is living on a different planet. They are always there and there abouts!

[joey_big_nose]

If Chelsea spend well they will rise to the top. They had key players missing for large periods last year.

Liverpool had a great season, one that they won't be able to repeat with limited, to no, transfer funds.

Arsenal are another that if they spend wisely could be up there.

I think United will get the majority of the money and buy well, when has ferguson spent badly on outfield players?

Anybody writing United off is living on a different planet. They are always there and there abouts!

Problem for Chelsea is that a lot of their players are old and they have changed manager again. Plus Man CIty and Real are going to bag all the big names it would seem. I would say Liverpool are in the strongest position. They have 3 world class central midfielders, a world class centre forward, a very good defence. If they can add one very good striker, improve their full backs, and get one outstanding right winger, they will have the strongest squad in the Prem.

The only issue is Benitez is a bit of a loose cannon.

[benhben]

Think the happenings at Real Madrid deserve a thread of their own now.

£80m bid accepted for Ronaldo who has told Utd he wants to leave.

Also reportedly planning a £30m plus bid for David Villa.

Will all these star signings be able to gel as a team however?

As for Utd i think its a great deal for them. Accepted theyve lost a massive goal threat and millions of marketing revenue, but they can now strengthen the whole team. A world class right back, world class goalkeeper, world class centre mid and a Ronaldo replacement. Perhaps another striker. Ribery could be a good bet.

I wouldnt be surprised if Utd were even stronger next season.

EDIT: Oops didnt see the Manc Dominance thread

[CrazyIvan]

£80 million!!! WTF? I guess that means some of the interest might get paid then...

[colbert]

An amazing amount of money! especially in this climate - and being in spain, they are worse hit than us with the credit crunch. Where is the money coming from??

Good deal for utd.

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

I wonder if Platini will raise concerns about Real's spending spree - in the same way he has the Premiership

[JC4LAB]

Didnt Fergie recently say about Real Madrid " He wouldnt sell them a virus.."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/foo...icle5365676.ece

[Blue n White Rover]

Cya Ronaldo Cya Ronaldo

Getting on the plane

F**king off to Spain

Cya Ronaldo Cya Ronaldo

(To the "Viva Ronaldo" tune)

[T4E]

He's now gone and left,

To play in all whiiiiiiiiiiiiite

Bye Bye Ronaldo

Greasy little @#/?

[LeftWinger]

when has ferguson spent badly on outfield players?

Kleberson

Djemba-Djemba

Forlan

Berbatov (Arguably)

Nani

David Bellion

Liam Miller

Juan Veron

None of those have been succesful at United.

[tcj_jones]

Let's just take a moment to admire the probable Real starting XI:

Casillas

Ramos / Pepe / Heinze / Marcelo

Ronaldo / Sneijder / M. Diarra / Robben

Kaka

Raul

And then you have the likes of Lassana Diarra, Van Der Vaart, Huntelaar, Nistelrooy, Higuain, Drenthe, Guti and Gago on the bench.

Real have far and away the best squad in world footbal now IMO. A new centre back to replace Cannavaro is all they need to have complete balance in their squad.

[Hughesy]

Viva ronaldo,

Viva ronaldo

he is of to madrid

for 80 million quid

viva ronaldo