[Archived] Other Pl Happenings 2009/10

[T4E]

It is turning into a two-team league though, Costa Del SPL...

Nonsense.

Number of different winners of La Liga in the last 10 years - 4 (Barcelona, Real Madrid, Valencia, Deportivo)

Number of different top 2 finishers in La Liga in the last 10 years - 6 (Barcelona, Real Madrid, Valencia, Deportivo, Villareal, Real Sociedad)

Number of different top 3 finishers in La Liga in the last 10 years - 8 (Barcelona, Real Madrid, Valencia, Deportivo, Villareal, Real Sociedad, Sevilla, Mallorca)

Number of different top 4 finishers in La Liga in the last 10 years - 12 (Barcelona, Real Madrid, Sevilla, Atletico Madrid, Villareal, Valencia, Osasuna, Real Betis, Deportivo, Celta Vigo, Mallorca, Zaragoza)

compared to -

Number of different winners of the Premier League in the last 10 years - 3 (Manchester United, Chelsea, Arsenal)

Number of different top 2 finishers in the Premier League in the last 10 years - 4 (Manchester United, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool)

Number of different top 3 finishers in the Premier League in the last 10 years - 5 (Manchester United, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Newcastle)

Number of different top 4 finishers in the Premier League in the last 10 years - 7 (Manchester United, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Everton, Newcastle, Leeds)

If La Liga is uncompetitive, what is the Premier League?

[tcj_jones]

We'll have to wait and see what the relative position of the top four clubs is like come August, but suddenly the playing field looks remarkably more even.

Upon Liverpool closing the gap at the top end of the table, United have weakened considerably. Ronaldo and Tevez are both gone, Giggs and Scholes are on their way out, Nani looks to have been a rather expensive flop and Berbatov has, so far, failed to shine. Chelsea have changed management and given indications that they are, once more, prepared to spend big this close season. Meanwhile, Arsenal have witnessed the return to fitness of what is actually a very strong squad and there has barely been a whiff of player unrest or players wanting out, as opposed to previous seasons. In fact, numerous Arsenal players have recently expressed their desire for the squad to remain intact and some have sought to sign new deals.

I can see struggling next season unless they strengthen considerably. The likes of Antonio Valencia will not be enough.

Nonsense.

If La Liga is uncompetitive, what is the Premier League?

To be fair mate, he did say 'turning'. Whereas the Premier League is, arguably, becoming more even at the top, the reverse is true in Spain.

I cannot see anybody coming even remotely close to Real and Barca next season. There was a big enough gap this year.

[T4E]

I cannot see anybody coming even remotely close to Real and Barca next season. There was a big enough gap this year.

See, I don't buy that at all. Its this that makes La Liga the best league in the World above the PL in my opinion. Every year for the last 10 years Barca and Real Madrid have had squads on paper that look far superior to the rest. Yet every year teams get in between them and sometimes above both, despite continually selling most of their best players (Valencia, Sevilla and Villareal are the obvious examples).

I wouldnt be at all surprised if the likes of those came back next season with another lot of unknowns and turn the tables in Spain.

I'd be amazed if the same happened in England.

[b12_simon]

D-do one Ron Ron. D-do one Ron!

[Mc Love]

D-do one Ron Ron. D-do one Ron!

Oh thats good - i am in really good mood

[Exiled_Rover]

I'd be impressed with him if he stayed.

[FourLaneBlue]

Nonsense.

I said "it is turning"...then you come up with statistics from ten years ago. I am not talking about seven or so years ago when it was the most competitive of the major leagues.

Last season Real and Barca were way ahead of the others. It was the biggest gap for a long long time.

Since then Real are adding Kaka and Ronaldo to their squad. Barca are bringing in quality.

The other teams will not get a look in.

It is a work in progress but La Liga is on the way to becoming a closed shop of two.

Nobody mentioned the Prem...we all know who the top 4 for each season will be years before never mind at the start of the season.

Besides...why did you not choose statistics from the last FIVE seasons - far more obvious to detect in that timescale after I said it was "turning into" - rather than 10 seasons? Aston Villa were challenging for the title 10 years ago and Leeds and Newcastle had decent shouts late on in the seasons after that if you want to go back that far....

[T4E]

I said "it is turning"...then you come up with statistics from ten years ago. I am not talking about five years ago when it was the most competitive of the major leagues.

Last season Real and Barca were way ahead of the others. It was the biggest gap for a long long time.

Since then Real are adding Kaka and Ronaldo to their squad. Barca are bringing in quality.

The other teams will not get a look in.

It is a work in progress but La Liga is on the way to becoming a closed shop of two.

Nobody mentioned the Prem...we all know who the top 4 for each season will be years before never mind at the start of the season.

You've based it "turning" on transfers so far this close season. Anybody who has followed La Liga for any length of time knows that it is never as clear cut as that in Spain.

Bear in mind that the stats I mentioned cover a period of time that included a couple of very very good Barca teams, along with the Madrid Galacticos era.

[FourLaneBlue]

You've based it "turning" on transfers so far this close season. Anybody who has followed La Liga for any length of time knows that it is never as clear cut as that in Spain.

Bear in mind that the stats I mentioned cover a period of time that included a couple of very very good Barca teams, along with the Madrid Galacticos era.

I was editing my post when you replied...

How about looking at the past 5 seasons and comparing them to Spain?

I am basing it on having "followed La Liga for any length of time" and there seemed to have been a change in recent seasons. I am guessing that will result in what I suggested...

Besides when have Real Madrid ever bought two of the best three players in the world at the same moment and still been on the outlook for more? Even the Galactico period never got that crazy...it was always one a summer...

Bear in mind that the stats I mentioned cover a period of time that included a couple of very very good Barca teams, along with the Madrid Galacticos era.

The stats support your argument and I do not disagree with them over that timescale.

This however is obviously something that is happening recently and so I do not think 1999-2000 is all that relevant. The world of football....never mind La Liga...has changed a huge amount in that period.

[T4E]

I did it over 10 seasons because I thought it'd make most sense to do it over the top 4 gets Champions League period, as thats when those positions became most important. That has been the last 9 seasons, so 10 seemed like a nice round number.

As it happens, over the last 5 seasons the numbers look like this -

Number of different winners of La Liga in the last 5 years - 2 (Barcelona, Real Madrid)

Number of different top 2 finishers in La Liga in the last 5 years - 3 (Barcelona, Real Madrid, Villareal)

Number of different top 3 finishers in La Liga in the last 5 years - 5 (Barcelona, Real Madrid, Valencia, Villareal, Sevilla)

Number of different top 4 finishers in La Liga in the last 5 years - 8 (Barcelona, Real Madrid, Valencia, Villareal, Sevilla, Atletico Madrid, Osasuna, Real Betis)

compared to -

Number of different winners of the Premier League in the last 5 years - 2 (Manchester United, Chelsea)

Number of different top 2 finishers in the Premier League in the last 5 years - 4 (Manchester United, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool)

Number of different top 3 finishers in the Premier League in the last 5 years - 4 (Manchester United, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool)

Number of different top 4 finishers in the Premier League in the last 5 years - 5 (Manchester United, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Everton)

La Liga still looks more competitive.

[tcj_jones]

If anything Neil, the stats you provide there show how La Liga IS developing into a two-team league. No-one is doubting that the league, as a whole, is more competitive than in England. However, only three clubs in Spain over the last five seasons have finished in the top three (Barca and Real comprising the top two in four of those five) whereas in England, four seperate teams have finished in the top two.

Furthermore, I can honestly say that, as it stands, any one of United, Chelsea, Liverpool or Arsenal could win the league next season. I can only see Barcelona and Real winning it in Spain.

[FourLaneBlue]

OK here are the stats over the last 5 seasons. A few more relevant time period considering we are talking about something that is (allegedly, on my part) currently happening...

Number of different winners of La Liga in the last 5 years - 2 (Barcelona, Real Madrid)

Number of different top 2 finishers in La Liga in the last 5 years - 4 (Barcelona, Real Madrid, Villareal, Valencia)

Number of different top 3 finishers in La Liga in the last 5 years - 4 (Barcelona, Real Madrid, Villareal, Sevilla)

Number of different top 4 finishers in La Liga in the last 5 years - 8 (Barcelona, Real Madrid, Sevilla, Atletico Madrid, Villareal, Valencia, Osasuna, Real Betis, )

compared to -

Number of different winners of the Premier League in the last 5 years - 2 (Manchester United, Chelsea)

Number of different top 2 finishers in the Premier League in the last 5 years - 4 (Manchester United, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool)

Number of different top 3 finishers in the Premier League in the last 10 years - 4 (Manchester United, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool)

Number of different top 4 finishers in the Premier League in the last 10 years - 5 (Manchester United, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Everton)

So...it is pretty obvious to "anybody who has followed La Liga for any length of time" that things are changing and it has been becoming more of a closed shop. The main difference being that other teams can still get into the Champions League spots which is the main blight on the English league. If the likes of Man City or Aston Villa can ever start getting into those spots then there will be little difference between the Prem with the La Liga.

Seeing as we all bemoan the boredom of the Prem, that cannot be good for the competitiveness of La Liga...

If you want to watch a truly entertaining league where the title always seems up for grabs and usually on the last day...the Bundesliga beats the other European leagues hands down.

Better beer and sausages too...

EDIT - You posted again while I was typing. I really should do something constructive instead of spending my work hours on here! I think that stats show that La Liga is turning into a far less competitive league over time. Comparing the five seasons from 1999-2004 and those from 2004-2009 prove that. It is getting less competitive now rather than more competitive. I will be utterly amazed if Real and Barca are not the top two by some distance once again next season

[Billy Castell]

I wonder if Pellegrini has a tacticalplan with these new stars, or is it just going to be like the last 'Galatico' sham? I like chocolate, and I like curry, but I'd never combine the two in one dish.

I hate Real Madrid, but this has made me smile. How much will go towards debts I wonder.

[T4E]

So...it is pretty obvious to "anybody who has followed La Liga for any length of time" that things are changing and it has been becoming more of a closed shop. The main difference being that other teams can still get into the Champions League spots which is the main blight on the English league. If the likes of Man City or Aston Villa can ever start getting into those spots then there will be little difference between the Prem with the La Liga.

I don't disagree with most of that. But by the same token the same number of teams have won La Liga as have won the PL in the last 5 years, and the rest of the league is more competitive. The suggestion that it's becoming like the SPL is miles off. I know you didn't mention the PL but I'm sure you'll agree for the benefit of a decent debate its a worthwhile comparison.

Just to add a few more stats to the debate (sadly I'm enjoying this) here are the number of points accrued by the top 2 in each league for the last 5 seasons.

2008-09

Barcelona - 87

Real Madrid - 78

Man United - 90

Liverpool - 86

2007-08

Real Madrid - 85

Villareal - 77

(Barcelona - 67)

Man United - 87

Chelsea - 85

2006-07

Real Madrid - 76

Barcelona - 76

Man United - 89

Chelsea - 83

2005-06

Barcelona - 82

Real Madrid - 70

Chelsea - 91

Man United - 83

2004-05

Barcelona - 84

Real Madrid - 80

Chelsea - 98

Arsenal - 81

In each and every one of those seasons, the top 2 in the Premier League have gained more points than their La Liga counterparts. Which speaks volumes about the overall competitiveness of each league.

You're certainly right that in the last few of seasons Real and Barca have edged ahead generally speaking. But to call it a closed shop or SPL-like ignores many major leagues around Europe that have far worse problems, the Premier League included.

[Billy Castell]

In time, all the leagues will be like the SPL, thanks to all the money going to the Champions League teams. Then Sky can jizz over 'Super Sunday' and ignore the vast majority of teams as much as they like.

[Hughesy]

How do them points compare for the gap between 2nd and 3rd?

The prem is going to become more and more competitive I think. Each year it seems to be getting more of a battle for every team, hence why so many teams were in with a fight of either europe or relegation last season.

Next season we should have 3 very strong teams (Liverpool, United & Chelsea) - 4 chasing 3rd (if one of the strong teams has an off season) or 4th Arsenal, City, Villa & Everton.

The premiership teams will continue to dominate Europe - Yes Barca won the cup, but there were once again many more English teams in the final stages (And there will be again next year).

[DanLad]

Then Sky can jizz over 'Super Sunday' and ignore the vast majority of teams as much as they like.

They do that already, more or less, don't they?

[Hughesy]

Sky can do what they want, aslong as they keep pumping £40m our way each year.

[FourLaneBlue]

You're certainly right that in the last few of seasons Real and Barca have edged ahead generally speaking. But to call it a closed shop or SPL-like ignores many major leagues around Europe that have far worse problems, the Premier League included.

The reason I used the SPL was threefold...firstly we are talking about 2 teams completely dominating, secondly for reasons of hyperbole and thirdly it allowed me to get in the 'Costa del SPL' quip...could also be Costa del Escocia...which while not particularly funny was still one of which I was proud of.

La Liga is heading that way...last season I think I read was the most heavily dominated league (by the top 2) ever in Spain. Think Phil Ball on Soccernet went on about it.

Anyway...Barca were streets ahead of the rest last season...Real Madrid were way ahead too and are adding Kaka and Ronaldo + more apparently. I think La Liga is in danger of becoming dominated by 2 teams which the Prem is not...it is dominated by 4 teams.

I would probably prefer the La Liga way to be honest...at least other teams get into the Champs League. Then again I am not defending the Prem...I am not really a fan of it at all other than for Rovers.

[Rover Down Under]

Just to try and shift the topic back to the correct forum - just read about Ronaldo's move.

What utter bloody insanity.

80 million quid?!

I'm lost for words.

Beyond belief.

On a + note I reckon Mr X. is Van Nistelroy who will now have dropped down the pecking order.

[LeChuck]

On a + note I reckon Mr X. is Van Nistelroy who will now have dropped down the pecking order.

You shifted the discussion back on topic then threw it back off again! It can't be Van Nistelrooy, nicko said it's not a bank breaker (RVN's wages would be HUGE) and Coyle won't have ever tried to sign him. Also, I'm sure nicko said he might need a bit of work but would be good enough for the first team - his wording never made him sound like a superstar type signing which RVN most certainly would be.

Back to Ronaldo - oddly Man Utd might already have a ready made replacement in Rooney - if they build the team around him now instead of Ronaldo they might not be weakened much at all. They can use the money to buy a player who naturally plays the role Rooney has been filling for them, which was pretty much left wing.

[Anti-Dingle-Brigade]

With Ronaldo going, this could benefit England as well as United. If Fergie builds his team around Rooney, we could well see Rooney contesting for the Golden Boot. His England form shows that he has no trouble scoring, his position at United prevents it. If Fergie can move Rooney to his natural position, Rooney would develop better as a striker and it'd probably benefit England too.

Additionally, United can now build a proper team. With Ronaldo it was all square holes in round pegs and lopsided.

[Hughesy]

United just need to sign 2 wingers and an out and out striker to play alongside rooney. With £86m they could sign all 3 and still have change!

[JC4LAB]

80million is a lot of money to spend and if they dont then Gordon and his mate Mr Darling will be licking their lips...3 of so decent buys should more than compensate

[ABBEY]

80million is a lot of money to spend and if they dont then Gordon and his mate Mr Darling will be licking their lips...3 of so decent buys should more than compensate

or andrews for 75 mill