[Archived] Benni Vs Roberts

[Hughesy]

Ok this appeared to be taking over the transfer target thread so lets keep it in here.

Simple arguement has come up - who is better, who would you rather keep?

For me its simple - Benni every day of the week. Give him chances and he scores. Roberts as shown last season can quite easily miss them. For £2.5m - Top scorer in 2 of his 3 seasons despite being in and out of the team, and despite playing deeper to accomodate RSC.

People have thrown the penalty arguement into the pot too but all good players take them and dont get them discredited from them (Gerrard, Ronaldo to name 2).

Argue away boys and girls.

P.Valery wrote

Totally agree. Best post i've seen in a while. Someone else posted stats of McCarthy and Roberts over a set period a few pages back. On Benni's stats they included games, goals and assists. On Roberts it was only games and goals. I meant to comment on it then but for one reason and another i didn't get round to it. But the comparison was ridiculous. Robert' game is about more than goals. His sheer presence creates openings for others. Don't get me wrong, i'm not his biggest fan. But when i hear people talking about McCarthy's natural ability it makes me laugh. He is lazy and has a belief in his own ability far over and above that which is accurate. Roberts is a grafter and gives his all for the cause. He may never be a superstar but he is honest and hardworking. I'd have got rid of McCarthy a long time ago. I don't know the stats, but i reckon even Dickov had a better return than 9 goals from open play in 2 seasons.

it was me who wrote those statistics the reason I only posted Roberts goals and games played was because it was not mentioned on Wikipedia his assists. You mention Dickov had a better return from 9 goals in 2 games so are you advocating we sign him up as in your opinion he was a better striker?. Roberts maybe a grafter and work hard for the team but if we had gone down due to the fact he missed 1 open goal and numerous other one-on-one opportunities would you still be as complimentary?. i don't think so ok maybe Benni is at times lazy and questions over his fitness have been raised fairly but at least he knows where the net is! and scores the majority of chances. Without him and Samba working so hard at the end of the season we would be down so deserves a lot of praise for that. Ok so Benni has missed pens but so has Roberts. You also have to consider a lot of the time he was overlooked by that clown "The Guvnor" where anyone with a brain cell could have figured out RSC was having a poor season and would have changed it around rather than hoping for the best. Also you have to remember mentioned here before Benni is by far the better striker as he has a champions league winners medal and Roberts has a championship runners-up medal also Benni would have had a better goal return if he had some good service from midfield as his first season in the premier league showed.

Rant over!

Don't be silly. You really do go over the top at times eddie. I never ever said BM is crap. Quite the opposite he is the most talented player in the club now that Tugay has gone. It's a fitness and attitude problem with him and that is the frustrating thing. For whatever reason he has not been motivated for some time.

Without motivation he is a luxury that we cannot afford to have around on the basis of performances and squad pschology. A move would likley see him turn it on for a year or so and we'd be left tearing our hair out but unless someone can light a fire under him at Brockhall then that is the only alternative.

How come you have such a limited understanding of football?

Just to add to the Benni and Roberts row. Benni may have only scored 9 goals from open play in the last two season, but the guy hardly played this season, and when he did towards the end of the season he was banging them in. last season, when he did play, he was playing in a deeper role to allow Cruz to play as the front man. He's never going to score a huge amount from that position in our team.

And the lazy tag just makes me laugh. He does track back and get involved, it's just some people expect him to be doing it all the time. You can't be in the box and scoring goals, if you are on the half way line.

No way we could replace his quality, not in a million years. Selling him would be a stupid thing to do.

More posts on the arguement......

Totally agree. Best post i've seen in a while. Someone else posted stats of McCarthy and Roberts over a set period a few pages back. On Benni's stats they included games, goals and assists. On Roberts it was only games and goals. I meant to comment on it then but for one reason and another i didn't get round to it. But the comparison was ridiculous. Robert' game is about more than goals. His sheer presence creates openings for others. Don't get me wrong, i'm not his biggest fan. But when i hear people talking about McCarthy's natural ability it makes me laugh. He is lazy and has a belief in his own ability far over and above that which is accurate. Roberts is a grafter and gives his all for the cause. He may never be a superstar but he is honest and hardworking. I'd have got rid of McCarthy a long time ago. I don't know the stats, but i reckon even Dickov had a better return than 9 goals from open play in 2 seasons.

You would have got 'rid of McCarthy a long time ago' ?? that discredits everything else you say. 'Lazy'? change the record, he's finished top scorer at the club twice in three years, i dont care if he's lazy as he does the business. If i had the choice between a hard working striker who fails to score regularly (Dickov/Roberts) or a 'lazy' striker who can hit 20+ in a league season, i would take the latter every single time.

I dont think Roberts is up to much, yes he's big and creates openings but thats not enough without the goals. Who would you rather have in a one on one situation eh? Roberts is very very usefull to have but he is a very poor finisher. There were at least 3 games last season when he had a 1 v 1 opportunity to win the match and failed to score. If he could finish, as everyone in the media has said for the past 3/4 years, he would be an exceptional player. But, he cant and he never will. If Roberts left it would be a shame but nothing more.

And this discredits everything you say good sir.

This was exactly my point. He hasn't hit these heights in the last two seasons. 9 goals from open play proves this. I'm not sure what your point is? I stated i'm not Roberts' biggest fan. But i prefer watching him give 100% every week over Benni poncing about under the pretence of being a world class striker. The man lost his desire to wear the shirt the minute Chelsea came calling. He can't even keep himself fit.

Roberts will never be anything more than a mid table premier league striker. I admit that. But Benni could have been and passed up the oppotunity. A club like ours can do without ego's like that. If he was all that, he would be long gone. The fact is he is a egoistical turd who we'd not want to sign if he played for anyone else. He makes lame excuses not to play for his country for god sake. But you know what? If he did produce the 20+ goals a season which you speak of, then i am shallow enough to forgive everything else. I openly admit that. However he hasn't for too long now.

I guess what it somes down to is, i'd rather see Roberts try but fail than benni not try and still fail.

Don't get me wrong. I don't want a side full of commitment and no ability. Of sourse not. But i'm tired of seeing our 'best players' such as Benni just looking like they're turning up for their weekly pay check. Its a sad reflection of todays football i guess. Maybe i expect too much to find talent and commitment shown by the likes of Tugay, Friedel, Jansen, Shearer, Hendry etc...

My point is that Benni is a better player than Roberts and for you to say that you'd want rid of Benni just because of his ego and laziness despite the fact that he scores far more frequently and has hit 20 goals in a premier league season (yes he's only done it once, but thats one more then Jason will ever get), is quite a shallow reason. Roberts fits into a poor premier league side, hard working but lacking in quality. Benni has that quality. He's no world beater, and i agree that on occasions his ego has got the better of him, but thats not enough to sell him as he is a level above Roberts.

Ill say it again, give Benni proper service from midfield and he will score the goals from open play again. He aint a Bellamy that has pace, but he knows where the back of the net is. Irrespective of penalties, he is a striker much like Van Nistelrooy who will roam up front and wait for the chance to pounce. We could have had the the best of strikers at the club, with our current midfield they would have struggled to score. Its funny, when Benni scores from a penalty people go crazy on here with excitement. Why? Because its a goal. Yet now people criticise him for not scoring enough from open play. He might have scored 9 goals in 2 seasons from open play, but how many goals has he scored for the club in total compared to the likes of Dickov and Kuqi?

It really is a stupid argument to be honest. Benni is creative and can score goals, Roberts is strong, works hard but doesnt score that much. We have been lucky this season with all those Roberts misses. Yes he scored the winner at Fulham, and a goal against Man City, but those easy one on one chances could have cost us big time. Love or hate him, Benni is by far a better striker than Roberts and that is based on goals scored in his career thus far. We can easily replace Roberts, but how often with our limited funds can we replace a player like Benni, who can still score goals for us. I wonder how many people will complain if he scores 20 goals in the new season, 15 from the penalty spot and 5 from open play. For those who dont know, a penalty if scored is considered a goal. A goal scored using your left ear, is considered a goal. My point is, if the guy wants to stand up front, and our midfield can provide service to him to score then what is the problem? Football today is now about a striker tracking back to defend. In years gone by, the midfield were the ones to move up in attack, and track back to defend thats their role. If Benni tracks back to defend, there is no way based on our current midfield that we will be able to find anybody in a goal scoring position, if our strikers are constantly asked to play as defenders for the sake of making people happy. We are too obsessed at the likes of Rooney tracking back to help out in defence. Strikers are meant to be up top, not running around in midfield or defence to help out because the defenders and midfielders are not capable of doing their job properly.

[ni_rover]

Benni is the better player and scores more goals but Jason has good pace and can score the odd goal too and his attitude is alot better.

[Iceman]

My 2 posts above does it for me. Roberts works harder, Benni is creatively better and more talented. Roberts creates chances, Benni takes his chances. A penalty is a goal, and you cant take that away from anybody's overall stats. Dickov also took his fair share of penalties, take that away and he was just a striker who ran around all day, without producing anything else. I would rather have a goal scoring striker, than a striker who runs his socks off. A striker is there to score goals, not to find himself having to do a defender or midfielders role. The reason we lack goals, is because our midfield has been so weak, that our strikers have had to play deeper to get posession of the ball.

[Hughesy]

For me Benni has that touch of class - you can tell he is an experienced continental striker - he has much more of a goal threat that Roberts.

Roberts works hard and causes problems for defenders, but he doesnt take chances like Benni can.

[unluckymorton]

Benni is the better player and scores more goals but Jason has good pace and can score the odd goal too and his attitude is alot better.

I'd go for Benni any day of the week.

I do knock Benni as he comes across as being lethargic, but I'd much rather have Benni running at goal than Roberts.

I'd also put Derbs in front of Roberts. Roberts is awful one on one with the keeper, ~I'd start him on the bench every week at best.

Benni COULD try harder, but he has done well for us. If he only went that extra mile he'd be a great player for us.

[Jackson]

MMMMmmmmm..... Who is better? Benni or Roberts.....

There's only one way to find out:

FIGHT!

[joey_big_nose]

Benni is a much better player, but he does not create things for himself (there are exceptions, he has scored a couple of excellent solo goals - Arsenal if the FA Cup 2 seasons ago - but rare). For him to be effective he needs 3 things:

1) Good supply

2) To be bothered to make the runs between defenders

3) To play as the "top line" striker, getting as near the goal as possible

It is hard to make all three of these things happen at once. He seems abivalent about playing for us, we are not producing quality from wide areas at the moment, and due to his lack of fitness Benni is dropping far too deep. The advantage of Roberts is that if you stick him on the pitch he will make things happen for himself (although he will then miss the chances!)

It's a tough position to be in - a lot of where we go with it depends how we are going to play next season, and what sort of players we bring into the midfield. I do hope we can motivate Benni and get Pedersen back to form to supply him, but you have to say the odds are against it.

[ni_rover]

Its obvious we all want Benni at the club. As for Jason:

How much did we sign him for?

How much would we get for him now?

Bearing in mind how dedicated he is and off course the guy will score goals.

[Hasta]

I'd rather keep Roberts. He affects a game much more when he is on the pitch. We missed Roberts more when he was out than when Benni was out.

Benni's problem is he 'appeared' to show more application in his first season than any of his subsequent seasons.

I'd rather have Benni taking penalties though.

[unluckymorton]

I'd rather keep Roberts. He affects a game much more when he is on the pitch. We missed Roberts more when he was out than when Benni was out.

Benni's problem is he 'appeared' to show more application in his first season than any of his subsequent seasons.

I'd rather have Benni taking penalties though.

If we're talking about selling or keeping them, we need to keep them both, and add to our striking options too. a decision on Derb's future would help.

Roberts has a big strong physical presence, if we lose that up front we've nobody strong enough to take his place.

[Presty On Tour]

Benni is by a distance a better player although his attitude is always in question. Remember this guy has scored goals on route to winning the champions league, he can finish a chance more often than not and has got some talented skills. With the World Cup in South Africa approaching, Benni may get a new incentive next season and could roll back the years.

Roberts for me is just too frustrating. His attitude is excellent but unfortunately at the highest level as a striker you need to take your chances. West Ham, he took one of the worst penalties in history, at Bolton and Boro he missed very easy headers and the worst of the lot was at Sunderland, where he couldn't even finish in an open goal which ruined Christmas! His control is awful and whenever he shoots, he seems to toe poke which is worse than school boy level.

On the other hand Jase scored a great winner at Fulham and he deserves credit for that. He does have strength and pace that causes problems but he is not consistent enough for me.

[LeChuck]

3) To play as the "top line" striker, getting as near the goal as possible

Agree with most of your post apart from this. We played a 4-4-1-1 at the end of last season (Sam's own words) and Benni was playing as the '1' behind target-man Samba. As long as he times his runs into the box well from that position then he doesn't have to be the furthest most forward striker as he showed last season.

He's still not very adaptable though, we have to have certain other players in the team to get Benni playing well. Roberts on the other hand could play in pretty much any system. They're as different as chalk and cheese so it's probably down to personal preference - for me Roberts just shades it.

[Hughesy]

Roberts on the other hand could play in pretty much any system. They're as different as chalk and cheese so it's probably down to personal preference - for me Roberts just shades it.

He can play in any system - just cant score. Isnt that what a striker is supposed to do?

[LeChuck]

He can play in any system - just cant score. Isnt that what a striker is supposed to do?

Depends what system you're playing. Heskey is probably worse at finishing than Roberts but is England's first choice striker at the moment. Bit harsh on Roberts anyway, he does score goals but unfortunately he misses a lot of chances too.

[Billy Castell]

If only we could merge the two like in The Fly. Mind you we'd probably end up with Benni's work rate and effort combined with Roberts' technical ability. Out of the two I'd prefer Benni as he has skill, whilst Roberts makes Heskey seem like Gerd Muller in front of goal.

[JC4LAB]

Benni for sure when hes a happy bunny..Dont think we will ever go down if we keep Benni..keeps pulliing rabbits out of the hat and getting useful goals..Roberts coming on as a sub.got a wondergoal at Bolton when we last won there..perhaps thats his best role

[imy9]

This is a complete no brainer: Benni every single time.

Give Benni a chance and he will score more often than Roberts will in the same situation.

A quality goal scorer is priceless in the PL which is why Roque is worth so much.

[Hasta]

Just a quick look through some stats at goals scored by the two in open play over the last 3 years.

Roberts has scored 14 goals in 4024 minutes on the pitch. That is a goal every 287 minutes.

Benni has scored 23 goals in 6249 minutes on the pitch. That is a goal every 271 minutes.

Not much difference there really. When watchin Rovers, Roberts does indeed seem to miss more chances than Benni but this must mean he gets in goalscoring positions more as because from open play he roughly scores at the same rate.

Also:-

Roberts was credited with 11 assists in the 4024 minutes on the pitch. An assist every 365 minutes.

Benni was credited with 5 assists in 6249 minutes on the pitch. An assist evey 1249 minutes.

No comparison there.

It's not as straight forward as saying Benni takes his chances and Roberts misses them. This is a team game and Roberts is a team player. It's certainly not a 'complete no-brainer'.

[67splitscreen]

Just a quick look through some stats at goals scored by the two in open play over the last 3 years.

Roberts has scored 14 goals in 4024 minutes on the pitch. That is a goal every 287 minutes.

Benni has scored 23 goals in 6249 minutes on the pitch. That is a goal every 271 minutes.

Not much difference there really. When watchin Rovers, Roberts does indeed seem to miss more chances than Benni but this must mean he gets in goalscoring positions more as from open play he roughly scores at the same rate.

Also:-

Roberts was credited with 11 assists in the 4024 minutes on the pitch. An assist every 365 minutes.

Benni was credited with 5 assists in 6249 minutes on the pitch. An assist evey 1249 minutes.

No comparison there.

It's not as straight forward as saying Benni takes his chances and Roberts misses them. This is a team game and Roberts is a team player. It's certainly not a 'complete no-brainer'.

Thats just given this topic at least another 10 pages to run.

[RovertheHill]

It's not as straight forward as saying Benni takes his chances and Roberts misses them. This is a team game and Roberts is a team player. It's certainly not a 'complete no-brainer'.

I think it is. And I think everyone underestimates the psychological effect having a proven quality goalscorer has on both your own team (we only need one chance to snatch this) and on the opposition (we can't afford to let this guy have a chance thereby creating more space for others). Jason provides a different type of threat but if I was going to pick one I'd pick Benni.

[DeadlyDirk]

They are totally different players though, I don't think it's as simple as saying who is better and who we should keep.

McCarthy is a form player full of techincal talent but low on physicality, 2 decent feet, creative, flair, can score from inside or outside the box (Outside seems a thing of the past though unfortunately) but is prone to being lazy, not bothering and generally showing poor desire and work rate when the team needs it in a fight.

Roberts is almost the complete opposite, bags of physical ability but not a lot of technical talent, unless he doesn't have to think about what he's doing. He always works hard for the team, puts himself about and is a great team player, he'll run fighting for the cause until the final whistle, doesn't always have the quality in the end product though to make a difference at the end of the day.

The one to keep will depend upon whether were fighting another relegation battle or pushing up the table, I'd be keeping both of them, they both have their roles to play for us and will both have their uses.

Hopefully BFS can get the best out of both of them.

[CaliRoverNYC]

my question is how come nobody before big sam would put both men on the pitch at the same time... It seems obvious to me, and it proved huge in our survival, but how come ince and sparky never put both men out there... maybe sparky did and i'm imagining these things but if i'm correct, can someone tell me why?

if roberts could finish like mccarthy he'd lead the league in goals nearly every season. But we wouldn't have him if that was the case.

[DeadlyDirk]

my question is how come nobody before big sam would put both men on the pitch at the same time... It seems obvious to me, and it proved huge in our survival, but how come ince and sparky never put both men out there... maybe sparky did and i'm imagining these things but if i'm correct, can someone tell me why?

if roberts could finish like mccarthy he'd lead the league in goals nearly every season. But we wouldn't have him if that was the case.

Well Sam has always been pretty advanced with technology during his managerial spells, perhaps genetically merging Roberts and McCarthy to form our version of Samuel Etoo is just out of his range right now, perhaps for the 2011 season.

[Fife Rover]

If only we could transplant their brains. We would then have a superb striker in Jason with Benni's brain and technical ability, but still with his own power and pace. The only snag would then be what could we do with the now useless Benni? Oh I know! We could sell him to McDonalds to make burgers

[DeadlyDirk]

If only we could transplant their brains. We would then have a superb striker in Jason with Benni's brain and technical ability, but still with his own power and pace. The only snag would then be what could we do with the now useless Benni? Oh I know! We could sell him to McDonalds to make burgers

He'd be lucky to last a day due to 'lost stock'.