[Archived] Bentley

[broadsword]

If we sold Bentley now:

a) Anyone that we were in for afterwards would have their price knocked up immediately just because the sellers would know we had money;

b.) We would have to buy a replacement right-winger, as well as strengthening in other areas. Pound to a penny, the replacement wouldn't be as good as Bents

c) He hasn't become an England regular yet (as surely he will one day be), so he's not near his peak markey value yet, if we sold him now, we'd be nowhere near to getting the money we could for him.

d) If Hughes thought it was a good strategy, then he wouldn't wait to be asked by John Williams, he'd say something

e) There is a risk element in the transfer market, and having cash to burn doesn't necessarily guarantee success. It would be a high-risk strategy that we'd undertake of our own volition, no-one is forcing us to sell a perfectly-happy, settled, in-form England international and use the money to make numerous signings, one or more of which may be a flop.

But other than that, cracking idea.

Try not to spit your dummy out just because people are disagreeing with you. Just because you're in a minority of one, doesn't mean you can't be wrong.

[T4E]

Den, as I said above, I'm not advocating "selling all our best players". I'm sure I made a post stating that not 2 hours ago!

Your idea is fantastic though. We keep our best players, and sign other good players to play with them. Thats genius. You got any bright ideas on how to finance that?

[den]

Den, as I said above, I'm not advocating "selling all our best players". I'm sure I made a post stating that not 2 hours ago!

Your idea is fantastic though. We keep our best players, and sign other good players to play with them. Thats genius. You got any bright ideas on how to finance that?

Like we have been doing for the last few years - Rocky, Benni, Bentley etc,etc. Nothings changed has it?

Or are you saying we have no more money at all? Don't think that's the position.

[T4E]

If we sold Bentley now:

a) Anyone that we were in for afterwards would have their price knocked up immediately just because the sellers would know we had money;

b.) We would have to buy a replacement right-winger, as well as strengthening in other areas. Pound to a penny, the replacement wouldn't be as good as Bents

c) He hasn't become an England regular yet (as surely he will one day be), so he's not near his peak markey value yet, if we sold him now, we'd be nowhere near to getting the money we could for him.

d) If Hughes thought it was a good strategy, then he wouldn't wait to be asked by John Williams, he'd say something

e) There is a risk element in the transfer market, and having cash to burn doesn't necessarily guarantee success. It would be a high-risk strategy that we'd undertake of our own volition, no-one is forcing us to sell a perfectly-happy, settled, in-form England international and use the money to make numerous signings, one or more of which may be a flop.

But other than that, cracking idea.

Try not to spit your dummy out just because people are disagreeing with you. Just because you're in a minority of one, doesn't mean you can't be wrong.

Likewise Bryan. Unlike most, I'm looking at alternative means to raise the investment that we almost certainly need to make.

I have no issue with disagreement - if I didn't enjoy the debate I wouldn't be here engaging in it. There have been several objections to the idea in this thread, all perfectly valid. I have also provided respostes to each of these suggestions. These have then been ignored, only for the same objections to be cited 4 or 5 posts later. It hardly makes for interesting discussion.

As I keep saying, I would love to hear viable alternative suggestions. That's not so I can dismiss them, I'm desperate for someone to come along here and show me there is another way forward. In an ideal World we would be able to keep players like Bentley and allow them to fullfill their ambitions with us. That would be my preference above all others. As yet no one has been able to do that.

It's easy to dismiss an idea, particularly when the majority will agree. Just because lots of people agree on something, that doesn't make it correct.

[thenodrog]

So what is the way forward?

Thats quietend Mozzer it seems. Toogs.

[T4E]

(What happened there? )

Anyway -

Like we have been doing for the last few years - Rocky, Benni, Bentley etc,etc. Nothings changed has it?

Or are you saying we have no more money at all? Don't think that's the position.

The Premier League has moved on in a big way in the last few years. Teams that we are used to finishing above, like Portsmouth, Aston Villa, West Ham and Manchester City, have all have massive amounts of cash injected, and look like being able to continue in the same way. Quite the opposite has happened for us, as this transfer window has suggested that we possibly have even less money than we had in the last few seasons. I would say a lot has changed.

[thenodrog]

Well, you can sell all our best players if you like. Personally I'd stick with the revolutionary idea of keeping them - then buying one or two more to play alongside them.

Can't see that idea catching on though. Ferguson, Wenger, Moyes, Rednapp, O'Neill would never go down that route.

Good grief! Before they all ferk off for sweet FA when they've run their contracts down and then we cannot afford to replace them. We ARE punching above our weight and it will not last forever. This is the 60's scenario again imo.

As for those managers you mentioned they are our customers and our future meal ticket. C'mon Den you are usually better than this. Football is a damned tough business needing tough decisions when you have less income than those around you.

[den]

Good grief! Before they all ferk off for sweet FA when they've run their contracts down and then we cannot afford to replace them. We ARE punching above our weight and it will not last forever. This is the 60's scenario again imo.

As for those managers you mentioned they are our customers and our future meal ticket. C'mon Den you are usually better than this. Football is a damned tough business needing tough decisions when you have less income than those around you.

Gord, player will move on, no problems. What we have here though, are people advocating selling our top players while they're still happy at the club.

Go listen to JW. He'll tell you that the only reason that BRFC exists, is to put as good a football team on the park as is possible. We're different to a lot of other clubs who have shareholders. That's also the attraction to prospective managers. You can't do that by pushing top players out of the club - and that is in effect, what's being suggested. Yes to re-invest the cash, but what for? To buy another top player, or buy a few players not quite as good?

[John]

Replacing your best/top players is always a complete nightmare for any manager, with or without cash.

[den]

Replacing your best/top players is always a complete nightmare for any manager, with or without cash.

They know it John. They're just up for a squabble.

[T4E]

Gord, player will move on, no problems. What we have here though, are people advocating selling our top players while they're still happy at the club.

Most valuable players. While they're still valuable. Thats the key. It's not necessarily about the best or top players. MGP is not one of our top players in my opinion. He is however one of the most valuable. I'd sell him in a shot, if we could get circa £8m for him. The sad thing about that is a time has been and gone when we could've got closer to double that amount.

Yes to re-invest the cash, but what for? To buy another top player?

No, to buy several players. You sell high when the player is at their most valuable, then try to bring in 2 or 3 for the cash. You improve the team as a unit. With £12m, Hughes could do that.

[T4E]

They know it John. They're just up for a squabble.

Thanks for your co-operation

[thenodrog]

Gord, player will move on, no problems. What we have here though, are people advocating selling our top players while they're still happy at the club.

Go listen to JW. He'll tell you that the only reason that BRFC exists, is to put as good a football team on the park as is possible. We're different to a lot of other clubs who have shareholders. That's also the attraction to prospective managers. You can't do that by pushing top players out of the club - and that is in effect, what's being suggested. Yes to re-invest the cash, but what for? To buy another top player, or buy a few players not quite as good?

To buy a few top players of course.

Seriously there are lots of good players out there! Not long ago their was lots of angst on here about selling Bellamy, Stead, Dickov, Gallagher and even Kuqi! Bad egg and lying git Bellamy excepted does anybody really want em back? We've got Samba, RSC, and Benny for the same money. Which is the best deal?

I'm telling you that if we quietly replace the likes of Bentley/Samba/RSC BEFORE moving them on for big money then agents all over the world will be queuing up to get any stuttering superstars here. The key is getting our retaliation in first by having adequate replacments lined up..... and also rewarding Hughes et al commesurately with their efforts.

There really is NO other way for us to survive long term. How about a poll... should we sell Bents or double the ST money? We cannot have it all ways.

[John]

Remember, it would cost a lot of money to replace your best player(s). For Bentley, you would have to find someone who could replace his assists. Or if it was to be Cruz, you would have to pay a decent price to replace his goals.

Theno - the transfer market is not as easy as you suggest. Hence why every manager is hating the current transfer window. There is also an element in luck in having every signing work out for you.

[allanncd]

Bentley's comments that anything less than 4th place is underachievemnet this season looks to me like the opening salvo in a "this club doesn't match my ambitions" campaign that can be expected to gain momentum as the summer approaches. No doubt behind the scenes manoevring from the Toon moneybags among others (Man City) will lead to another uncomfortable summer for MH manning the barricades . If Bentley doesn't sign the improved contract expect the tabloid rags to use this to turn the screw.

[den]

Most valuable players. While they're still valuable. Thats the key. It's not necessarily about the best or top players. MGP is not one of our top players in my opinion. He is however one of the most valuable. I'd sell him in a shot, if we could get circa £8m for him. The sad thing about that is a time has been and gone when we could've got closer to double that amount.

No, to buy several players. You sell high when the player is at their most valuable, then try to bring in 2 or 3 for the cash. You improve the team as a unit. With £12m, Hughes could do that.

Players generally run on a 3 or 4 year contract. Which year is the most valuable year?

Who's to say we would get the asking price for that player?

When you've touted that player around and you can't get the high price you thought you could, what next - carry on as if nothing had happened?

It's a ridiculous idea. Clubs try to offload players who's contracts are running out now, whilst they still have value. What are you saying they should do differently?

BTW Toogs, I was only joking with John.

[philipl]

If its true we signed the Bulgarian lad on loan then t4e and drog will get their dream come true when we flog off Roberts assuming we get the £4m asking price.

It makes sense selling non-critical players but not selling players who make the team tick like Bentley does.

[T4E]

Players generally run on a 3 or 4 year contract. Which year is the most valuable year?

Who's to say we would get the asking price for that player?

When you've touted that player around and you can't get the high price you thought you could, what next - carry on as if nothing had happened?

It's a ridiculous idea. Clubs try to offload players who's contracts are running out now, whilst they still have value. What are you saying they should do differently?

I'm not sure there is a year of the contract that a player is most valuable within, providing there is atleast 18 months to run. Assuming that criteria is met, it is all down to form. I'd imagine a player is at his most valuable when the media speculation about said player's future is at its most fevered, this usually serves to inflate the asking price.

The "touting around" would obviously be done by the players agent, a potential sale price identified and a decision made on whether this is the best move for all concerned. No doubt any agent would be happy to engage in this acitivity, money talks after all.

I'm not sure I follow your last point there. Are you suggesting we let a players contract run down to a certain level before looking to sell? If so, what benefit do you see this having? I can only see this leading to less clout in negotations for Blackburn Rovers.

BTW Toogs, I was only joking with John.

I know mate, was just playing along. No grief here.

[T4E]

If its true we signed the Bulgarian lad on loan then t4e and drog will get their dream come true when we flog off Roberts assuming we get the £4m asking price.

It makes sense selling non-critical players but not selling players who make the team tick like Bentley does.

You've struck something there Philip - obviously a huge consideration when identifying players for potential sale has to be how critical they are to the team. I'd be much less likely to suggest selling a 20-25 goal a season striker. A right sided midfielder, as good as Bentley is, is someone I think we could replace and have money left over to strengthen in another critical area. For example, getting £12m for Bentley, and spending the money on Darren Fletcher (as direct RM replacement) and Diarra (as Savage replacement) would've been good business in my opinion. We'd likely have £2m - £3m left over as well, not to mention £1.5m from Sav.

[broadsword]

How much do you think we'd get for Bentley if we openly started touting him?

Presumably a good deal less than if clubs started sniffing round because they really wanted him. If they know we want to sell then they'd presumably bid less than if we were hanging onto him tooth and nail.

[philipl]

You've struck something there Philip - obviously a huge consideration when identifying players for potential sale has to be how critical they are to the team. I'd be much less likely to suggest selling a 20-25 goal a season striker. A right sided midfielder, as good as Bentley is, is someone I think we could replace and have money left over to strengthen in another critical area. For example, getting £12m for Bentley, and spending the money on Darren Fletcher (as direct RM replacement) and Diarra (as Savage replacement) would've been good business in my opinion. We'd likely have £2m - £3m left over as well, not to mention £1.5m from Sav.

This is doolally land.

Touting means getting agents involved means agent fees. Bye bye Bentley for £12m means £1.2m to the agent and probably triggers an end of contract kicker/loyalty bonus payment to Bentley because we effected the sale.

Lets say we get £10m net and save £35k current wages.

Lets say we get Fletcher and Diarohea for £5.5m each. Fletcher at Man U will be on at £35k now so his wages would be £45k if we are lucky, ditto the chap who'd only go to Newcastle for £90k per week.

End result, wages have lept by £55k a week putting upwards pressure throughout the squad, we will be £1m out of pocket on transfers even though fans will think we still have £1m to spend plus there will be other transaction costs- moving help etc.

The real killer is the wages which are now £3m per year higher than they were or £12m over 4 years contracts.

No- it doesn't work. Now if you sell Santa Cruz as well and don't replace him ....

[thenodrog]

The principle is sound but I think with Bentley the timing is not quite right. He could be worth much more if he becomes an England regular under Capello.

[Mozzer]

its absolutly ridiculous to suggest we sell our best player so we can have extra money to buy players..

as far as im concerned and im sure hughes is concerned, were a club moving forward-yes we are taking small steps because we dont have the finances, but to sell bentley, to even suggest selling bentley is one of the most ridiculous things ive heard..

yes players like fletcher and diarra would be or would of been good signings-but we dont need to sell bentley to do that..

if you want to sell someone to release funds, sell somebody whose heart aint in the club, sell someone who clearly looks like they dont want to be here..not someone whose loving every minute of it here..

oh and id say replacing a striker is much easier then replacing a winger like bentley..

[Fife Rover]

That unfortunately is our role nowadays. I've made this point about making Hughes bonus payments based on his success in the transfer market. BUT Den look on the bright side, bringing on and developing under achieving players and misfits before selling them on to big clubs for big money means that agents will be falling over themselves to offer us their prodegies whos careers need resurrecting. It's not a bad way forward for a club with whats prob the lowest income in the Prem.

Except that going that route we wont be in the Prem for long. Should find our level about mid-table in Div 1 with that strategy.

[tony gale's mic]

if we become a selling club we'll eventually go on a downward spiral too. people can talk about all our great signings we've made but thats partly down to hughes being a great talent spotter and partly down to luck. i mean it is our luck that noone else who could offer these players more wanted these players too. and hughes won't be with us this time in 2 years.

but if it was that easy, surely all the managers around the league would be selling their best for big money and buying replacements for half the price? or at least all the ones outside the top 4.

of course if someone offers 20 million for bentley tomorrow (not going to happen i know), that would be an offer we would have to consider. but fact is that we're unlikely to get an offer we cant refuse for bentley, he's not close to performing at berbatov style levels for us, so any offer we get would have to be discouraged unless bentley wanted to leave and there wasnt much time left on his contract. if we keep giving up our best players we will go downhill fast as the cheap classy arrivals will dry up eventually.

and i'd rather we went down fighting, trying to keep our best players and selling only when we absolutely had to, than tamely whore our best players when the big clubs come knocking.