[Archived] Afghanistan

[adopted scouser]

Hand on heart, how many of us know what our boys in Afghanistan are actually fighting for?

How many of us know what the endgame is? How many of us have the vaguest idea what this government's objectives there are?

And the 64-thousand-dollar question is - in the name of what cause are our boys and girls being slaughtered day after bloodied day?

What goal is it that necessitates 184 bright, brave young men and women being killed and many more mutilated beyond recognition?

And if you don't know the answers to those questions, it's not your fault. Because this bloody government doesn't seem to know either - or care.

The vague answer we get from them is that it's absolutely vital to national security that we defeat the Taliban.

But of course we never will, no-one ever has including thousands of Russians, not with the number of soldiers we have there who every day risk their lives to take territory - only to find the minute they move out, the terrorists just take it back.

Our boys aren't fighting a war - they're playing a game of cat and mouse at the behest of this penny-pinching government, who've sent them there to fight but won't pay what it costs to win that fight.

And if defeating the Taliban is so bloody vital to national security, why did Gordon Brown send just 100 extra soldiers to Afghanistan - when he was explicitly told by ex-Army boss, Sir Richard Dannatt, we needed at least 2,000 more on the ground to have even the vaguest hope of winning this war? And why do we have exactly the same number of helicopters for 9,000 troops as we did when there were just 4,000?

What kind of commitment is that to national security? What kind of commitment does it show to our soldiers, who are being thrown to the wolves because our politicians won't provide the helicopters that would stop them being blown to bits by roadside bombs?

It's disgusting to see decent, hard-working committed men - men who refuse to live on benefits and who instead of sponging off their country want to fight for it - dying in the most horrific of circumstances because Gordon Brown refuses is trying to fight this war on the cheap.

And where is the political will to take down the Taliban? Because if this government is serious about doing it, there needs to be more men out there, more money spent protecting them and there needs to be a strategy.

I'm sick to the back teeth of hearing ministers droning on about the "debt of gratitude we owe our boys". Because it's patronising, it's insulting to the families of the dead, and it's simply not true.

If they did care about those soldiers they've put directly in the path of enemy bombs, they'd make sure they had the weapons and the equipment to fight back. And they haven't.

Who cares if more kids in Afghanistan are now going to school. It's not worth the wholesale slaughter of our soldiers.

[RibbleValleyRover]

I sympathise with most of your comments and feelings especially on how under funded the armed forces are and as a result are not getting the right level or amount of equipment.

On the validity of the war itself I don’t think it can be compared to Iraq, no matter how much the anti war protestors are trying to make out. Al Qaeda were being supported and financed by the Taliban regime in Afghanistan, the moment they attacked the homeland of the US they had to be taken out. Even though Bin Laden hasn’t been captured, killed or confirmed dead you have to admit that Al Qaeda are weaker than they were before the conflict and do not pose the same level of threat as before.

So to summarise I back your views on the government and their incompetence when it comes to funding however I back the reasoning behind going to war and fully believe a withdrawal would be disastrous.

[thenodrog]

It's a mess alright. The only way to beat the Taliban on their own middin without loss of life on our side probably involves mushroom shaped clouds.... and unfortunately for our troops at the sharp end they seem somewhat frowned upon these days by most of the worlds governments.

Course if the muslims keep tweaking the Chinese tail the Chinks might just do some of our dirty work for us. They don't seem to care a fig about their popularity rankings.

[OhmiBRFC]

One of my mates was involved in a serious incident last month - where an officer gave down their live - fortunately he is stable and on the mend. What's it all for though? 8 today were repatirated home. Another 8 too many. The goverment need to focus on what they want and get our troops out. We've tried previously and didn't succeed and neither has anybody else!

Another lad I know is going this year, and if my brother hadn't been moved into a different job (he's now training recruits) he would be there now.

[1864roverite]

Thats a quite serious view AS, and being ex-forces myself I have often questionned it myself. I almost certainly feel for the families of those who sadly lose their lives in this conflict and all other conflicts that may not be deemed necessary or "our" problem.

Afghanistan is the root of terrorism funded simply by opium production and fanatical radical groups. It is an area that throughout history has become a "blackspot" when trying to define the reason for fighting a war.

You will never get an answer from this Government, they are too shallow and secretive whilst being too cowardly to address its own residents or to allow them a say in how our Country is governed. I doubt that we would get a serious answer from any other Government.

To take the real problems out of Afghanistan will make the world more stable and cut off a major arms supply to other organisations. It will have a major impact in removing a serious problem, one that The West themselves, have helped bring about through the years. That problem became too much 2 years ago so something had to be done and we all know the answer on how to get rid of it and that is to send Armed Forces into the area.

By using Forces there will be issues that never see the light of day and will disappear under the weight of unnecessary deaths that occur.

I truly believe that it will be at least 3 more years before we get a real grip on the situation in that country. I know soldiers are earked for yet another tour in a few months, that will be the 3rd in 2 years and it will go on and on.

Until we do take a grip it is a sad fact that more of our troops will perish.

Thats the real sad issue about Afghanistan

[RIML]

Maybe someone can shed some light on this but why are we not bombing back?

[1864roverite]

Because WE fight within the rules of engagement whilst the Taliban have no such ethos.

We are are not allowed to just bomb willy nilly, set up booby traps or the like, each and every step of our reasons for action have to be documented and agreed through a tier of command whereas the Taliban just do what they like.

Thats your answer mate.

[adopted scouser]

you have to admit that Al Qaeda are weaker than they were before the conflict and do not pose the same level of threat as before.

Measured against what ? They are like cockroaches, kill dozens but they'll regroup and come back at you. Whatever difference the campaign makes you have to let go of the tiger's tail at some stage. The minute we clear out of there it'll go straight back to the way it was.

I fully believe a withdrawal would be disastrous.

Not as disastrous as the seemingly endless cortege arriving in Wootton Bassett, covered in flowers. Totally bloody pointless as was Iraq, bring them home now.

[OhmiBRFC]

Even though Bin Laden hasn’t been captured, killed or confirmed dead you have to admit that Al Qaeda are weaker than they were before the conflict and do not pose the same level of threat as before.

If anything they're stronger.

All us being there does is create more fanatics who are preparing to join the cause. Each time the Forces do something that the locals don't like, it just gets more lads to join up. What makes it harder is the enemy do not care about death - some even embrace it.

[Ritchie]

The Taliban will prevail, so it's in the best interests of the soldiers to withdraw from the region.

The Taliban saw off the USSR and they'll see off their current opposition.

In short - the Taliban will always have an influence over the region... so it's pointless fighting them, as they'll just regroup.

[JAL]

Why we in Afghanistan ?

You want to come to Blackburn visit the town and the psyche ward at Royal Blackburn thats full, and see the young WHITE men totally screwed up through taking heroin grown in Afghanistan imported into the town by the Pakistani community.

Young white men totally screwed up whilst Asian men drive around in their top of the range fancy cars buying up all the housing and commercial properties that are available- thats why!.

Its an accusation that doesnt apply to all of the asian community but most certainly a section of it.

[JAL]

Why we in Afghanistan ?

You want to come to Blackburn visit the town and the psyche ward at Royal Blackburn thats full, and see the young WHITE men totally screwed up through taking heroin grown in Afghanistan imported into the town by the Pakistani community.

Young white men totally screwed up whilst Asian men drive around in their top of the range fancy cars buying up all the housing and commercial properties that are available- thats why!.

Its an accusation that doesnt apply to all of the asian community but most certainly a section of it.

[RIML]

Because WE fight within the rules of engagement whilst the Taliban have no such ethos.

We are are not allowed to just bomb willy nilly, set up booby traps or the like, each and every step of our reasons for action have to be documented and agreed through a tier of command whereas the Taliban just do what they like.

Thats your answer mate.

It's sad isn't it. I was watching the news earlier when the bodies of the soldiers passed through Wiltshire, as soon as the people threw flowers on the hearses I broke down inside, I didn't even know these people but to see that was so sad, only a fraction of the grief the families and friends must go through.

It's sad to just think we are fighting a war like they did in 1914, on the ground, obviously the weapons are a lot more equipped nowadays but we have the air force to just wipe them out, the Taliban are not bothered about killing their own. I remember watching a documentary on 9/11 and the main difference between us, is the terrorists love death and we love life. They are not bothered who dies. The only way I see us winning this war is by bombing. Tough talking I know but that's the way to win the war by getting tough.

Just another point, did anyone watch the news last night, how the media showed that British soldier torturing innocent civilians who had a bag on their head, making them kneel down and preventing them from sleeping, hardly torture considering what Iraqis did to Ken Bigley, not to mention them two other men who were captured and shot most recently.

[Ritchie]

Why we in Afghanistan ?

You want to come to Blackburn visit the town and the psyche ward at Royal Blackburn thats full, and see the young WHITE men totally screwed up through taking heroin grown in Afghanistan imported into the town by the Pakistani community.

Young white men totally screwed up whilst Asian men drive around in their top of the range fancy cars buying up all the housing and commercial properties that are available- thats why!.

Its an accusation that doesnt apply to all of the asian community but most certainly a section of it.

Nobody forces them to buy heroin.

[adopted scouser]

Why we in Afghanistan ?

You want to come to Blackburn visit the town and the psyche ward at Royal Blackburn thats full, and see the young WHITE men totally screwed up through taking heroin grown in Afghanistan imported into the town by the Pakistani community.

Young white men totally screwed up whilst Asian men drive around in their top of the range fancy cars buying up all the housing and commercial properties that are available- thats why!.

Its an accusation that doesnt apply to all of the asian community but most certainly a section of it.

That's a fair if unpopular comment, but my thread was about Afghanistan, not race relations in Blackburn. A pity that the one eyed idiot in number 10 can't make the decision, but I'm not sure Clegg or Cameron would do anything else.

(and to be fair Warren, the yanks do bomb from five miles up)

[OhmiBRFC]

It's sad isn't it. I was watching the news earlier when the bodies of the soldiers passed through Wiltshire, as soon as the people threw flowers on the hearses I broke down inside, I didn't even know these people but to see that was so sad, only a fraction of the grief the families and friends must go through.

It's sad to just think we are fighting a war like they did in 1914, on the ground, obviously the weapons are a lot more equipped nowadays but we have the air force to just wipe them out, the Taliban are not bothered about killing their own. I remember watching a documentary on 9/11 and the main difference between us, is the terrorists love death and we love life. They are not bothered who dies. The only way I see us winning this war is by bombing. Tough talking I know but that's the way to win the war by getting tough.

Just another point, did anyone watch the news last night, how the media showed that British soldier torturing innocent civilians who had a bag on their head, making them kneel down and preventing them from sleeping, hardly torture considering what Iraqis did to Ken Bigley, not to mention them two other men who were captured and shot most recently.

I saw it, I also don't understand the reference to Ken Bigley?

None should have happened, both innocent parties. What our soldiers did was disgusting and I hope whoever happened to be involved has the book thrown at them.

[Ritchie]

Just another point, did anyone watch the news last night, how the media showed that British soldier torturing innocent civilians who had a bag on their head, making them kneel down and preventing them from sleeping, hardly torture considering what Iraqis did to Ken Bigley, not to mention them two other men who were captured and shot most recently.

Iraq is in turmoil as a result of the invasion a few years ago. It is now a haven for terrorism and the Iraqi people cannot walk the streets of their own country in safety.

Humiliating and abusing anybody is unacceptable but will carry on regardless.

[RibbleValleyRover]

If anything they're stronger.

All us being there does is create more fanatics who are preparing to join the cause. Each time the Forces do something that the locals don't like, it just gets more lads to join up. What makes it harder is the enemy do not care about death - some even embrace it.

And running away with your tail between your legs? I would even argue that pulling out would be perceived as a defeat and show all these young Islamic radicals that we can be beaten and spur them on to join the cause as it looks like its working. If we pull out and the Taliban who have a solid support base in the population take control again then we will have a similar situation pre 2001, state sponsored terrorism.

We will leave when the country is able to govern and defend itself, we are leaving Iraq now after training the Iraqi army and help put a government in place, the same will apply in Afghanistan when the time is right.

On the issue about the Mujahideen having experience with the Russians, keep in mind they were heavily funded by the US (CIA) to fight the war against the Soviet force. Yes the Taliban are being armed by radical elements in Pakistan and the Iranians, but its nowhere near the scale that the US was funding the fighters in the 80's.

[RIML]

I saw it, I also don't understand the reference to Ken Bigley?

None should have happened, both innocent parties. What our soldiers did was disgusting and I hope whoever happened to be involved has the book thrown at them.

He's the name everyone remembers.

To be honest I didn't think it was disgusting, what they do to the British people is disgusting, we don't know these people were innocent, we're just assuming they were.

[JAL]

That's a fair if unpopular comment, but my thread was about Afghanistan, not race relations in Blackburn. A pity that the one eyed idiot in number 10 can't make the decision, but I'm not sure Clegg or Cameron would do anything else.

(and to be fair Warren, the yanks do bomb from five miles up)

I'm trying to point out exactly how it effects our country adopted scouser and Blackburn is a prime example.

Stretch it further on the comercial property front - the jews in Manchester are selling out key comercial properties to the muslim community because they are THE ONLY KEY BUYERS.

The muslim community didnt make money out of factory or mill workers did they ?

Heroin makes them stronger whilst we grow weaker how what does that mean? simple do you want it!

The temptation to bring converted opium into this country simply has to be eradicated thats why we are in Afghanistan.

[OhmiBRFC]

And running away with your tail between your legs? I would even argue that pulling out would be perceived as a defeat and show all these young Islamic radicals that we can be beaten and spur them on to join the cause as it looks like its working. If we pull out and the Taliban who have a solid support base in the population take control again then we will have a similar situation pre 2001, state sponsored terrorism.

We will leave when the country is able to govern and defend itself, we are leaving Iraq now after training the Iraqi army and help put a government in place, the same will apply in Afghanistan when the time is right.

On the issue about the Mujahideen having experience with the Russians, keep in mind they were heavily funded by the US (CIA) to fight the war against the Soviet force. Yes the Taliban are being armed by radical elements in Pakistan and the Iranians, but its nowhere near the scale that the US was funding the fighters in the 80's.

I never said we should pull out. I also happen to know that if we do just pull out; leaving things as they are than it will be a victory - or atleast percived victory - to the Taliban.

He's the name everyone remembers.

To be honest I didn't think it was disgusting, what they do to the British people is disgusting, we don't know these people were innocent, we're just assuming they were.

You think torture is acceptable in the 21st century?

[RIML]

You think torture is acceptable in the 21st century?

No but my point being was the media make it out like the British soldier abusing Iraq prisoners is far worse than the torture suffered by the captured British civilians.

Also I maybe wrong but is our government paying for a public inquiry into the death of Baha Mousa?

Just watching the video on BBC about the torture which states the MOD paid out £3 million in compensation

[Hasta]

Iraq is in turmoil as a result of the invasion a few years ago. It is now a haven for terrorism and the Iraqi people cannot walk the streets of their own country in safety.

And do you think Iraq was a terrorist free zone against the West prior to the invasion? A section of the Iraqi population couldn't walk around safely in their own country before. The difference being these people were in danger and being oppressed by their own government. Now Iraqi's are in danger from other Iraqis.

They are not bothered who dies. The only way I see us winning this war is by bombing. Tough talking I know but that's the way to win the war by getting tough.

And your not bothered that the majority of the people that you'd probably kill are normal civilians?

[Ritchie]

And do you think Iraq was a terrorist free zone against the West prior to the invasion? A section of the Iraqi population couldn't walk around safely in their own country before. The difference being these people were in danger and being oppressed by their own government. Now Iraqi's are in danger from other Iraqis.

Sadly, violence has escalated to the point that Iraq is far more dangerous now than it was under Hussein.

Granted, Iraq under Hussein wasn't exactly plain sailing for many Iraqis of course.

[OhmiBRFC]

No but my point being was the media make it out like the British soldier abusing Iraq prisoners is far worse than the torture suffered by the captured British civilians.

Also I maybe wrong but is our government paying for a public inquiry into the death of Baha Mousa?

Just watching the video on BBC about the torture which states the MOD paid out £3 million in compensation

It didn't look that way to me!