[Archived] Afghanistan

[JAL]

Only problem is that the Taliban are also foreign. The vast bulk of them are from Pakistan. The Taliban were a creation of the Pakistani secret services- to add strategic depth to Pakistan In the first case to overthrow the Russians and create a buffer from the reds (with significant funding from the West) and secondly to place missile depots out of the range of the Indian Air Force.

Only problem with it all, is that the Taliban couldn’t be controlled and wanted Afghanistan all to themselves.

Dont forget Iran and their infiltration into Afghanistan.

[BuckyRover]

the biggest problem for our armed forces is the rules of engagment.. Birtish forces can not and will not fire a weapon unless fired upon (think black hawlk down) like many armed forces around the world.. this means that they can see a terrorist actually shooting at them, and then watch them walk away scott free because they have put their gun down, even though they know 100% that the guy was just trying to kill them, many will disagree with this but thats piles of wet sloppy BS in my eyes.. other situations friends in the army have told me about are watching someone walk down a street holding a AK firing shots into the air untill he was within range to kill one of our men, and they couldnt do anything untill this terrorist had actually fired a shot at them, and even atthat point they had to wait for the chain of command to give the green light..

nukes wouldnt help, that would most likely cause a full scale war, and it will also affect countries around afgan, friendly countries at that. though bombing a knows taliban stronghold will help the fight.

I don't believe that. I saw a documentary where there was some fire from a distance and they just called in an airstrike and dropped a 500lb bomb and wiped everybody out.

[dazmaz]

I don't believe that. I saw a documentary where there was some fire from a distance and they just called in an airstrike and dropped a 500lb bomb and wiped everybody out.

basically unless auturised by someone high up in the chain of command, the only shooting a brtish soldier can do is in self defence

"British Military ROE

The British Ministry of Defence officially defines ROE as:

"Directives issued by competent military authority which delineate the circumstances and limitations under which UK forces will initiate and/or continue combat engagement with other forces encountered." [1]

The ROE deal with four issues:

* When military force may be used,

* Where military force may be used,

* Against whom force should be used in the circumstances described above, and

* How military force should be used to achieve the desired ends.

The ROE take two forms: Actions a military commander may take without consulting a higher authority, unless explicitly forbidden (sometimes called 'command by negation') and second, actions that may only be taken if explicitly ordered by a higher authority (sometimes called 'positive command'). Also, in the event that there is a clear and present danger.

In addition to a typically large set of standing orders, military personnel will be given additional rules of engagement before performing any mission or military operation. These can cover circumstances such as how to retaliate after an attack, how to treat captured targets, which territories the soldier is bound to fight into, and how the force should be used during the operation.

The ROE are extremely important:

1. They provide a consistent, understandable and repeatable standard on how forces act. Typically they are carefully thought out in detail well in advance of an engagement and may cover a number of scenarios, with different rules for each.

2. They assist in the synchronization of political-diplomatic and military components of a strategy by allowing political commanders to better understand, forecast and tailor the actions of a force.

The first rule of engagement for British Armed Forces is always the right to use force in self-defence."

taken from http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Rules_of_engagement.

[BuckyRover]

So are you arguing that they should be able to shoot people at random?

What is the problem with the ROE policy? The Taliban can't aim for **** anyway. We are trying to win hearts and minds, not kill as many people as possible.

I have seen plenty of footage of the war in Afghanistan (I find it very interesting) and a LOT of aerial bombardment was going on, and it was very intense. They certainly weren't pussy footing around.

"Also, in the event that there is a clear and present danger." Somebody waving a gun around in the distance or even the sight of arms, can easily be defined as a "clear and present danger".

[broadsword]

Unwinnable, that much is clear. particular with under-manned resource, and insuffiecient protection against roadside bombs. The geography of teh place doesn't help much either.

Gordon Brown-stain-in-his-pants, is, much like his predecessor, more than happy to put young men in harm's way. But he'll try to get away with the bare minimum of provisions. When it goes wrong, it's a time for cod solemnity from someone who's safe in his bunker. When it goes right, it's time for reflected glory.

I'm sure the Forces will understand, there's other pressing concerns out there, like out-reach workers or whatever.

I thought al Qaeda training camps were also in Pakistan, can we invade them next?

How about the bombers who were on "Don't panic I'm Islamic"? Weren't they training in the New Forest? Let's invade that.

When are our tanks going to go rolling up Luton High Street?

[dazmaz]

So are you arguing that they should be able to shoot people at random?

What is the problem with the ROE policy? The Taliban can't aim for **** anyway. We are trying to win hearts and minds, not kill as many people as possible.

I have seen plenty of footage of the war in Afghanistan (I find it very interesting) and a LOT of aerial bombardment was going on, and it was very intense. They certainly weren't pussy footing around.

"Also, in the event that there is a clear and present danger." Somebody waving a gun around in the distance or even the sight of arms, can easily be defined as a "clear and present danger".

sadly that refers to self defence, thus only actually meaning you can only fire when fired upon UNLESS your orders state otherwise

maybe the taliban cant hit a barn door, but you have to remember all it takes is one stray bullet to hit someone

my apologies for my previous post, was speaking with a of mine whos a staff sergent, started taking about this thread, he has corrected me on the ROE.

The ROE has been changed for afganistan, soldiers can now shoot taliban who try to get around the ROE by putting their gun down and walking away.. BUT it have to come down the chain of command and it has to be a 100% +ive id

has anyone on here read the book called 'sniper one'? its the stories of a soldier who was based in iraq or afganistan, cant remember what one. its all based on true events and shows some rather large flaws with the british army

[colin]

............ but to date and as usual it's a far better suggestion than yours Colin.

What was my suggestion?

[BuckyRover]

Here's a good one

[Iceman]

Im muslim, but we had a thread about a prayer room, mosques and Afghanistan. Its a small minority that are making the muslims look bad. I dont agree with the Taliban, but its a shame that the muslim people are all blamed. No mention of the torture that kids,women and children have been getting from the American soldiers. There have been reports of women being raped by soldiers. This is not how we are suppose to treat each other, its about respecting the next persons beliefs. Ive said that when i do eventually make the trip to ewood, that i will probably sit with the away fans. I know some wonderful people on here and from the official but will not let anybody know im coming over.

[thenodrog]

What was my suggestion?

Exactly. As usual Colin you didn't bloody well offer one!

Im muslim, but we had a thread about a prayer room, mosques and Afghanistan. Its a small minority that are making the muslims look bad. I dont agree with the Taliban, but its a shame that the muslim people are all blamed. No mention of the torture that kids,women and children have been getting from the American soldiers. There have been reports of women being raped by soldiers. This is not how we are suppose to treat each other, its about respecting the next persons beliefs. Ive said that when i do eventually make the trip to ewood, that i will probably sit with the away fans. I know some wonderful people on here and from the official but will not let anybody know im coming over.

Mighty strange logic are you employing there Iceman.

Tell you what if you want to experience a match with the away fans try to make the game on the 18th Oct. Bigotry and colour prejudice will be to the fore which you will quickly discover if you choose to wear anything in blue and white.

[yoda]

Im muslim, but we had a thread about a prayer room, mosques and Afghanistan. Its a small minority that are making the muslims look bad. I dont agree with the Taliban, but its a shame that the muslim people are all blamed. No mention of the torture that kids,women and children have been getting from the American soldiers. There have been reports of women being raped by soldiers. This is not how we are suppose to treat each other, its about respecting the next persons beliefs. Ive said that when i do eventually make the trip to ewood, that i will probably sit with the away fans. I know some wonderful people on here and from the official but will not let anybody know im coming over.

thats intergration for you

[Iceman]

Exactly. As usual Colin you didn't bloody well offer one!

Mighty strange logic are you employing there Iceman.

Tell you what if you want to experience a match with the away fans try to make the game on the 18th Oct. Bigotry and colour prejudice will be to the fore which you will quickly discover if you choose to wear anything in blue and white.

Its not about the Burnely match Gord. If you meet me, you will understand that not all muslims are recognised as terrorists,its the minority of muslims that are giving the rest a bad reputation. I dont agree with these terrorists, but the Americans are terrorists as well as there are many innocent muslims being killed. I also dont agree with these soldiers being killed, but if they do go back home then there will be chaos all over the place.

[Ritchie]

Its not about the Burnely match Gord. If you meet me, you will understand that not all muslims are recognised as terrorists,its the minority of muslims that are giving the rest a bad reputation. I dont agree with these terrorists, but the Americans are terrorists as well as there are many innocent muslims being killed. I also dont agree with these soldiers being killed, but if they do go back home then there will be chaos all over the place.

Unfortunately, some people are unwilling to refrain from anti-Islamic bigotry.

I think we know who they are.

[Ritchie]

So are you arguing that they should be able to shoot people at random?

What is the problem with the ROE policy? The Taliban can't aim for **** anyway. We are trying to win hearts and minds, not kill as many people as possible.

A typically ignorant viewpoint of the Taliban. They are highly skilled in guerrilla warfare and certainly know how to set traps, ambushes and kill soldiers.

Americans possessed the same ignorance towards the Vietnamese. They soon found out just how wrong they were.

I repeat - the Taliban will win this war.

[thenodrog]

Its not about the Burnely match Gord. If you meet me, you will understand that not all muslims are recognised as terrorists,its the minority of muslims that are giving the rest a bad reputation. I dont agree with these terrorists, but the Americans are terrorists as well as there are many innocent muslims being killed. I also dont agree with these soldiers being killed, but if they do go back home then there will be chaos all over the place.

How? You don't want to meet anyone iceman.

But if your opinion is correct then the solution is easy, the silent majority needs to stop skulking and bleating from the shadows but to come out to publically denounce and expose the evil minority for the good of the entire peoples of the world.

Unfortunately, some people are unwilling to refrain from anti-Islamic bigotry.

I think we know who they are.

I don't. Can you explain your comments further Ritchie?

[Iceman]

How? You don't want to meet anyone iceman.

But if your opinion is correct then the solution is easy, the silent majority needs to stop skulking and bleating from the shadows but to come out to publically denounce and expose the evil minority for the good of the entire peoples of the world.

I don't. Can you explain your comments further Ritchie?

I did say i know some good people on here, but said i dont want to keep on hearing about the wrongs of Islam where a small minority are tarnishing the religion. Here is no talk about Jews, Hindu's etc, who are doing injustices to muslim people as well. Anyway im probably the only muslim on here, so in all likelihood i will lose this argument or debate. I have no problem with you Gord, so ill respect your opinions.

[Ritchie]

I don't. Can you explain your comments further Ritchie?

Your contribution to the How Many Mosques In Blackburn? thread hardly covers you in glory. Anti Euro Smiths is one who struggles to contain his bile - indeed he produces unhealthy amounts of it.

Shame, really.

[BuckyRover]

A typically ignorant viewpoint of the Taliban. They are highly skilled in guerrilla warfare and certainly know how to set traps, ambushes and kill soldiers.

Americans possessed the same ignorance towards the Vietnamese. They soon found out just how wrong they were.

I repeat - the Taliban will win this war.

Fortunately my view in their lack of aiming ability came from a documentary from the frontline in Helmand province where the soldiers were laughing about it. So do you think they are blinkered (they being those who are actually being shot at)?

Maybe they wil win the war, but that will be due to their guerrilla tactics and not their aiming ability.

[thenodrog]

Your contribution to the How Many Mosques In Blackburn? thread hardly covers you in glory.

Which comments? Be specific please Ritchie.

[broadsword]

Another soldier dead today. These peopel are under-equipped and under-manned.

Gordon Brown makes my blood boil!

He can find any amount of money to piddle up the wall, but he can't find the money to keep our troops safe. Some of these lads are little more than kids.

It makes me bloody sick, and I think it's a war we can't win, either, I have my doubts as to the motives.

[BuckyRover]

I have never heard anything so wet in my life Bryan. Have we come

to a time where we feel we can fight a war without any casualties?

Do you think people join the army and assume they will be living a safe life?

FFS

[broadsword]

They don't have sufficient protection from roadside bombs, they're sitting ducks.

I don't know why I'm arguing with you, you're a proper unit.

[thenodrog]

I don't know why I'm arguing with you, you're a proper unit.

Robert Green Ingersoll:

It is a thousand times better to have common sense without education than to have education without common sense.

[BuckyRover]

They don't have proper protection??

From bombs???

What do you propose would protect from "bombs"?

1 person a day?

In a war??

Are you talking about a real war or a middle class liberal left sandal wearing war (thanks theno)?

They are there for a purpose and they are happy to be there doing what they were trained to do. No maudlin, Daily Mail style reporting is going to make me or any rational thinking person think any differently.

R.e. theno, don't deflect on to me, you still have to explain your actions in the "How Many Mosques In Blackburn? " thread to Ritchie

[broadsword]

Decently-armoured vehicles? Or perhaps choppers so you don't have to go by road?

How does a "bomb" differ from a bomb?

I suggest that yet again you are out of tune with the majority.

Yes, they are there to serve their country by putting themselves into the line of danger, but it should be mitigated by decent equipment and arms which I believe they are entitled to. Additionally they shouldn't be committed to conflict without public support. Yet again our troops are committed to conflict without the nation truly understanding what it's about.

why don't you take your head out of your arse and stop being such an irritating left-wing student?