[Archived] Afghanistan

[BuckyRover]

A student? I graduated in 2005

Proper equipment. What are you referring to? What have you based your opinion on? We are still fighting a war that has been going on for 8 years, what has suddenly taken your interest? We have embarked on an offensive, casualties are inevitable. We are fighting for a good cause. For freedom we take for

granted.

Maybe we are under resourced, but if you hadn't noticed we don't have much money left. But do you even know what equipment the enemy have. We have so much more force than the taliban it's not

funny.

Just out of interest,when the police asked for 90 days without charge did you instantly support them? Stakeholders are at play. If you think you can get more, you ask for more

P.s I said "bomb because of your inference I thought this was different from a normal bomb that killed anybody regardless of equipment n

[thenodrog]

R.e. theno, don't deflect on to me, you still have to explain your actions in the "How Many Mosques In Blackburn? " thread to Ritchie

Do I? Why?

[broadsword]

A student? I graduated in 2005

Proper equipment. What are you referring to? What have you based your opinion on? We are still fighting a war that has been going on for 8 years, what has suddenly taken your interest? We have embarked on an offensive, casualties are inevitable. We are fighting for a good cause. For freedom we take for

granted.

Maybe we are under resourced, but if you hadn't noticed we don't have much money left. But do you even know what equipment the enemy have. We have so much more force than the taliban it's not

funny.

Just out of interest,when the police asked for 90 days without charge did you instantly support them? Stakeholders are at play. If you think you can get more, you ask for more

P.s I said "bomb because of your inference I thought this was different from a normal bomb that killed anybody regardless of equipment n

Out of interest, no I didn't support 90 days without charge.

I had noticed we didn't have much money left, if you'd actually read what I'd said there. It's all been ###### up against the wall. Yes, we're comparatively well-equipped but we don't have the numbers and we don't have the protective equipment that I think they're entitled to.

Would you fancy being sat in one of these when a roadside bomb went off?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7703703.stm

[BuckyRover]

No I wouldn't. I'm definitely anti Gordon Brown / Labour and I agree that maybe we could

do with more equipment, but at the same time I cannot think of a time where they wouldn't need

more equipment. One thing I have noticed is how many of the parents have said their kids loved their job

and wouldn't change it

They can't die in vain. We need to continue. People said Iraq could never get

better, but it has. This HAS to happen in Afghanistan.

[thenodrog]

Your contribution to the How Many Mosques In Blackburn? thread hardly covers you in glory. Anti Euro Smiths is one who struggles to contain his bile - indeed he produces unhealthy amounts of it.

Shame, really.

Which comments? Be specific please Ritchie.

C'mon Ritchie I'm waiting. Or have you bitten off a little more than you can chew this time with your mud slinging?

pm bucky if you need help....... he might be able to help you fabricate something.

[AlanK]

A student? I graduated in 2005

Proper equipment. What are you referring to?

What planet are you on?

How about being provided with the basics. Boots for starters. A lot of the boys buy their own from a shop in my town as the ones they are issued with are awful. The list progresses to bomb proof people carriers and up to helicopters. Your ignorance is inbelievable. I live next to RAF Brize Norton where these guys fly from Thats where I get my facts. And you!?! Bloody idiot. yes that was a personnel insult. Go report it.

[dazmaz]

Out of interest, no I didn't support 90 days without charge.

I had noticed we didn't have much money left, if you'd actually read what I'd said there. It's all been ###### up against the wall. Yes, we're comparatively well-equipped but we don't have the numbers and we don't have the protective equipment that I think they're entitled to.

Would you fancy being sat in one of these when a roadside bomb went off?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7703703.stm

i agree with all the people trying to get the land rover discontinued, its just a easy target for RPG's/..

an another sad note, anyone heard of the two tank operators killed by IDE's? the question with that is how the f**k does someone whos primary job is to operate a challanger 2 tank get blown up?

[BuckyRover]

What planet are you on?

How about being provided with the basics. Boots for starters. A lot of the boys buy their own from a shop in my town as the ones they are issued with are awful. The list progresses to bomb proof people carriers and up to helicopters. Your ignorance is inbelievable. I live next to RAF Brize Norton where these guys fly from Thats where I get my facts. And you!?! Bloody idiot. yes that was a personnel insult. Go report it.

Everybody complains about their job Alan.

I don't think the Taliban's boots are going to be any better than ours! Just because they choose to buy better boots, it does not mean they are not fit for purpose does it?

I am sure that there are certain things that could be improved and I hope that they will be. I do hope that they get more helicopters and I do think that will save lives. But I don't subscribe to the notion that they are critically under supported, far from it. Our equipment, weapons and resources are far better than the Taliban.

My point is that it is not as bad as the media are making out. We are taking far less casualties than the Taliban and that will continue. There will be instances where better equipment could have saved lives, but that is the same with everything.

Keep your shirt on. Your evidence comes from living near an airfield? Somebody told you that soldiers have been seen buying boots in your town? That is how you know the army is critically under resourced? I won't report your post. I don't quite know what I said to get your back up so much. It appears you have become carried away with the emotive reporting seen in the press.

[AlanK]

Emotive issue it certainly is. I don`t need to be told troops are having to buy their own gear. Its the bloody reason someone set up a shop in town in the 1st place. Around here its common knowledge what goes on. Its the RAF`s biggest base and word gets around. Living near an airfield? The forces are an integrated part of our community. They do let them out you know!

Don`t you get it? The government say they back the guys and girls but then don`t give them the gear. This isn`t Man.U v Yeovil you know. There are real lives at stake. People who believe they are protecting us. Your dismissive attitude that some will die when they don`t have to is disgusting. I`ve been at the air terminal when these guys get back to pick up friends who are the same troops you dismiss so easily. They are my freinds. Some people did not have the opportunity to pick up their loved ones.

They should have our support, they should have the governments support and they should have the equipment to get the job done.

[BuckyRover]

Some people WILL die, it is a WAR.

It is sad when they do die, I have shed tears for them myself.

We have lost solders and in hindsight some of them could have been saved by having "better" equipment. That is obvious and could be said for every military campaign that has ever been fought.

If our soldiers are so under resourced, which you claim, why have we not been losing more solders? We have lost less than 200 in an eight year campaign. The Taliban have lost far more, based on that how can we claim that they are terminally under resourced? They HAVE made good progress and will continue to do so, with far more advanced weapons and equipment than the enemy.

This is an incredibly important military campaign, they are fighting to prevent the Taliban taking over causing instability in the region for many years. Not only to mention launching terrorist attacks against Western countries. (Remember 9/11?)

In the first day of the battle of the Somme there were over 57,000 British casualties.

It is never nice when any soldier dies, but can we have a bit of perspective, and don't accuse me of being flippant.

[AlanK]

Because if 1 extra bit of kit could have saved 1 extra life then it should have been supplied. You try telling the relatives the gear exists but due to under funding their son/ husband / father is dead. Still, we could always claim some dodgy expenses, fund a banking executive to retire on half a mill a year or go flip some properties couldn`t we?

Yes lives will be lost but where exactly do YOU draw the line? 1 extra life? Imagine if 50% of lives could have been saved. 10% even. The gear exists for these folk to go do a job for US, many of them don`t get it and up dead then you come on and say oh well , people die. They don`t have to bloody die. And I don`t give a ###### how many Taliban die. I`m worried about our folk. Its not a ratio contest.

[AlanK]

Everybody complains about their job Alan.

This highlights your compete ignorance.

Yes, we all complain about our job but if I have a bad day and get home late due my dinner is cold.

If these troops you dismiss so flippantly have a bad day they DIE protecting us.

Tell you what, you have a face to face discussion with these guys and girls as I have on many occasions. Listen to their experiences, get the facts, then comment.

[BuckyRover]

That's fair enough.

But also ask the nurses, doctors, firemen, civil servants etc. and ask if they feel they get provided with the best equipment to do their jobs.

I'm pretty sure they will all say they need more. It's called being human.

I am still not sure what you are arguing about, I said they could do with some extra resources (preferably more troops). I am glad you brought MPs expenses up, the cost of 1 Chinook helicopter (not state of the art, developed in 1962) would cover MPs expenses many times over. This highlights your complete ignorance of the subject.

I believe you are the ignorant one. They want it, therefore we must give it to them. I don't think that mantra works very well. What would happen then? They would want more obviously. The General who made this request is leaving his post, it appears that he is doing a gallant thing and trying to give his troops a leaving gift by getting them better equipment. I have no problem with this.

We will have to agree to disagree, you think our soldiers have shoddy equipment and a dying as a result of this. I think casualties are inevitable and if we increased our defence budget ten fold we would still see casualties, only there wouldn't be any money left for the NHS etc.

I was talking to my friend about this last night, his good friend is in Afghanistan at the moment with the Welsh guards. He has spoken about his time in Afghanistan (when home previously) and he didn't have this incredibly negative view that you have. He doesn't like being in the army anymore, but he had never talked about being under resourced.

[AlanK]

I was talking to my friend about this last night, his good friend is in Afghanistan at the moment with the Welsh guards. He has spoken about his time in Afghanistan (when home previously) and he didn't have this incredibly negative view that you have. He doesn't like being in the army anymore

Now there is a contradiction.

My ignorance of the subject eh? I don`t talk to friends of friends who are over there. I talk to mine 1st hand as i stand next to them as they purchase their own kit. I stand next to them as they pass through the terminal to fly over there and hopefully i talk to them as they land at Brize in one piece. Then I get the information of poor equpment.

You stick to your 2nd hand info. Come over to Brize sometime and tell these people its only war and that they might die. Tell them it could be avoidable if the right gear was in place. Tell their families. You tell the widow that her husband would have survived if he wasn`t in the beat up landrover. I`ll meet you here. I`ll introduce you.

YOU asked about poor equipment. I`ll show you.

[MeanGreenMachine]

BuckyRover your attitude is disgusting.

Peoples lives could be saved by spending money on good kit, if we spent a million pounds on kit and it saved only one life it would be more than value for money.

These people our out there putting their lives on the line for us, they should have the best equipment at their disposal, end of.

[thenodrog]

Involve the H&S Exec..... they'd be well kitted out in no time!

Problem is those clowns will no doubt insist that every item of equipment is in high vis day glo orange ... just to be on the safe side of course.

[Amo]

BuckyRover your attitude is disgusting.

Peoples lives could be saved by spending money on good kit, if we spent a million pounds on kit and it saved only one life it would be more than value for money.

These people our out there putting their lives on the line for us, they should have the best equipment at their disposal, end of.

I think Bucky is saying that they have the NECESSARY equipment to do the job asked of them. I have to agree with him. Of course, it's terrible to suffer casualties, and I wouldn't wish that on anyone or their families, but this isn't a picnic.

[MeanGreenMachine]

Sounds like it

Winston Churchill, president of the United Kingdom National Defence Association and grandson of the late wartime prime minister, told Channel 4 News that not providing British troops in battle with the right equipment is "unforgivable".

"Had it not been for the fact that our troops had been sent into battle with inappropriate equipment, inappropriate vehicles which offer little or no protection from the IEDs; had it not been for the fact that the new generation of armoured vehicles has been postponed; had it not been for the fact that we don't have enough helicopters on scene, there would be many people who would be alive today who are now dead.

"What is unforgivable is when they are killed through the failure of British politicians, British cabinets and British governments who commit British troops to war and yet deny them the wherewithal.

"In the twelve years this government has been in office, certain departments have seen a three per cent increase in their share of GDP. Defence has seen an almost one third reduction from close to three per cent to close to two per cent.

"When our troops are committed to war and dying in battle that is unforgivable."

So the attitude is we should send our lads out with the bare minimum that does the job as thats the cheapest option?

[RibbleValleyRover]

I think Bucky is saying that they have the NECESSARY equipment to do the job asked of them. I have to agree with him. Of course, it's terrible to suffer casualties, and I wouldn't wish that on anyone or their families, but this isn't a picnic.

Clearly they don't if Army chiefs are asking for more equipment like Helicopters and soldiers are having to buy their own gear as the stuff supplied is substandard. Soldiers shouldn't have to buy any equipment with their own pay.

Another example of how badly run this government is and the serious lack of funding in our armed forces:

Army asked for 2,000 extra troops. Government sent 700

<snip>

"Gordon Brown rejected a recommendation by military chiefs to send 2,000 more troops to Afghanistan despite being warned that not doing so could jeopardise the mission against the Taleban, The Times has learnt.

The Government instead chose to send only 700 extra troops, taking the total from 8,300 to 9,000 — and only on a temporary basis in the run-up to the presidential elections in August.

This was the cheapest of four options put to No 10 and the Treasury by military chiefs in March as commanders in Helmand planned Operation Panther’s Claw."

</snip>

This is coming from a government that has wasted billions on an id card scheme that is not needed...

[Amo]

And there was a former colonel or whatever on the television a few days ago who said he ALWAYS wanted back-up and resupplies, but the fact of the matter was he still had the tools to perform the job. And in his opinion, the same applies to Afghanistan.

[MeanGreenMachine]

If people are out there putting their lives on the line they should have the best equipment available, not equipment that will 'make do'.

[broadsword]

Compare the way our lads are kitted out to what the Americans get.

Personally I think our armed forces are taken for granted.

[BuckyRover]

I think Bucky is saying that they have the NECESSARY equipment to do the job asked of them. I have to agree with him. Of course, it's terrible to suffer casualties, and I wouldn't wish that on anyone or their families, but this isn't a picnic.

Thanks Topman. That's exactly what I was saying. Alan would like me to go and speak to some bereaved widows to try and justify this viewpoint.

No Soldiers Complained About Equipment

[AlanK]

. It appears you have become carried away with the emotive reporting seen in the press.

And then you provide a link to the Kenilworth Weekly news of all things. Nice one :)

Got a simple question for you. A soldier is about to go to the front line. With the gear he has been issued with he has a 30% chance of dying. With the gear he could be issued with but isn`t he has a 20% chance of dying. What do you choose?

[OhmiBRFC]

i agree with all the people trying to get the land rover discontinued, its just a easy target for RPG's/..

an another sad note, anyone heard of the two tank operators killed by IDE's? the question with that is how the f**k does someone whos primary job is to operate a challanger 2 tank get blown up?

5 and 20's I presume.