[Archived] Gerrard Cleared Of Affray

[broadsword]

:laugh: :laugh:

[BuckyRover]

Yes it does happen all round the country, and every single instance of it happening is WRONG. Perhaps because it is commonplace you think it is right? It is just another symptom of the sad society we have now, but is NOT and never can be RIGHT.

Yes, and nothing like this ever happened in the past. The Krays, Ronnie Biggs, Teddy Boys, Brighton Riots etc.etc. were all made up by wooly, weak minded liberals to justify their laissez-faire policies and this kind of thing, fighting in bars, has actually only started happening recently.

Also the fact that the murder rate is at it's lowest for 27 years is just a downright lie. I can't prove it, but I KNOW it is.

[broadsword]

What on earth are you going on about, Bucky?

Are you saying that it's OK for Gerrard to dish a few slaps out now and then 'cos much worse has gone on in the past?

I think you're losing it mate.

[BuckyRover]

No. If you read what I replied to you would realise that I am making the point that it is not an issue with modern society (which is the point Fife made) but more an issue of human nature as it has always happened and I presume will continue to do so.

I have also noticed that a lot of discussions on here are being countered by accusing people of going "cRaZy". Not really condusive to a good debate.

[broadsword]

No, the main point he was making was that violence is wrong, there's never a justification for it.

I don't think you bringing up the Krays (slightly extreme example) negates in any way the subsidiary point that "it's the society we live in" (paraphrasing Fife Rover).

There's a lot more alcohol-fuelled violence these days, but obviously mentioning the Krays means that everything is cool.

PS: It's "conducive".

[Fife Rover]

Yes, and nothing like this ever happened in the past. The Krays, Ronnie Biggs, Teddy Boys, Brighton Riots etc.etc. were all made up by wooly, weak minded liberals to justify their laissez-faire policies and this kind of thing, fighting in bars, has actually only started happening recently.

Also the fact that the murder rate is at it's lowest for 27 years is just a downright lie. I can't prove it, but I KNOW it is.

I never said it never happened in the past, it did.......but much less frequently. And I can safely say that in the years when I was growing up it was virtually non-existent for the simple reason that almost ALL the young testosterone and alcohol fueled men were away doing their duty for King and Country, and were getting more than their fill of danger and aggravation. The few that weren't away were still otherwise engaged at nights as Auxillary firemen or ARP wardens, firewatchers etc. All of which was on top of their day or shift jobs, and didn't leave them with either time or energy for knocking seven bells out of each other just for the fun of it. Then factor in the blackout and nobody that didn''t absolutely HAVE to would even venture outside their front door after dark.

The present trend in ganging up and fighting for fun only really began in the early '60s, and even then it was on nowhere near the scale it happens today.......that is most definitely a modern phenomenon. And as for the knife carrying culture and the disgraceful tactics of attacking one person by a whole crowd of people, that again is only in the last 40 or so years and getting steadily worse with time. Coincedently all this began just as National Service was ending.

There is only one answer to it: All these young men that think fighting and causing serious injury is fun should be sentenced when up in court not to ASBO's or probation or stupidly short sentences inside, but to do at the very least 2 years National Service without any option, and they should used as the first in line for places like Afghanistan or wherever. We would soon find out how brave they really are then.

[Paul]

We would soon find out how brave they really are then.

Not sure it would take that long Fife. Just look at Gerrard as an example, just a pack animal who needs five "mates" to back him up.

[American]

The present trend in ganging up and fighting for fun only really began in the early '60s, and even then it was on nowhere near the scale it happens today.......

So all of the hooliganism stories you hear about the 60s and 70s are exaggerated?

I think the difference today is the weapons used and the strength behind them - as well as the press being more 24/7, looking for "stories" to write.

[BuckyRover]

No, the main point he was making was that violence is wrong, there's never a justification for it.

I don't think you bringing up the Krays (slightly extreme example) negates in any way the subsidiary point that "it's the society we live in" (paraphrasing Fife Rover).

There's a lot more alcohol-fuelled violence these days, but obviously mentioning the Krays means that everything is cool.

PS: It's "conducive".

It's not easy to spell correctly on an iPhone. There is more alcohol fuelled violence because there is more alcohol and more disposable income. I suppose this is a bad thing.

You cannot argue this point. Things are better now than they were in the rose tinted past. The only thing that isn't as good anymore is your aged body. Don't worry about it though, Plato made the same error of judgement.

[broadsword]

What on earth are you gibbering on about?

You've been smoking them bananas again, I've told you about that before. Everything's better these days, lalalalalaaa. Yes, indeed.

How old do you think I am? You'd be surprised what my "aged" body is capable of.

[BuckyRover]

Old enough to hark back to a time when things were better.

I look forward to doing it myself. I am sure I will.

[Fife Rover]

So all of the hooliganism stories you hear about the 60s and 70s are exaggerated?

I think the difference today is the weapons used and the strength behind them - as well as the press being more 24/7, looking for "stories" to write.

No they were not exaggerated, and they too were a disgrace to us as a nation. However the majority of the violence you are referring to was committed in and around football grounds and it was indeed a brand new phenomenon at the time. It also was completely wrong and inexcuseable to start fighting over a football match.

However, having said all that, can you or anyone point to hard evidence of anything like, or even approaching the scale of violence that we now routinely see and apparently accept, as having occurred pre-1960 on anything like the scale it does nowadays? I challenge you to do so.

[American]

Can only find back until the early 80s, but the number of crimes are almost the same, despite 4 million more residents. Violent crime (as a % of total crimes committed) has only gone up by 3 percent:

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/bcs1.html - towards the bottom - measuring crime for the past 25 years.

[den]

However, having said all that, can you or anyone point to hard evidence of anything like, or even approaching the scale of violence that we now routinely see and apparently accept, as having occurred pre-1960 on anything like the scale it does nowadays? I challenge you to do so.

Teddy boys in the fifties Fife? The gangsters of the 20's 30's or 40's before that, although nowhere near the scale of today's violence. Apart from that, I don't know of anything.

It's all down to personal standards Fife. They are much lower now than they ever were.

[broadsword]

Can only find back until the early 80s, but the number of crimes are almost the same, despite 4 million more residents. Violent crime (as a % of total crimes committed) has only gone up by 3 percent:

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/bcs1.html - towards the bottom - measuring crime for the past 25 years.

I wouldn't set too much store by crime statistics, a lot of violent crime caused by drink isn't reported.

And in any case, you'd need the absolute figures of *number* of crimes reported, not the percentage.

No-one's saying that 40 years ago violence was unheard of, but it's more common-place these days.

[American]

I wouldn't set too much store by crime statistics, a lot of violent crime caused by drink isn't reported.

And in any case, you'd need the absolute figures of *number* of crimes reported, not the percentage.

No-one's saying that 40 years ago violence was unheard of, but it's more common-place these days.

The number of crimes is almost identical to the early 80s, by reading the stats, despite having 4 million higher population.

Would also be curious to see how different it is due to people moving around more. Back in the day, I'm sure people had punchups, like with Gerrard's, but they were between friends, or at least people who had grown up with each other, so charges weren't pressed or reported.

[cletus]

......if Carlsberg did juries, they`d probably be the best juries in the world

[broadsword]

The number of crimes is almost identical to the early 80s, by reading the stats, despite having 4 million higher population.

Would also be curious to see how different it is due to people moving around more. Back in the day, I'm sure people had punchups, like with Gerrard's, but they were between friends, or at least people who had grown up with each other, so charges weren't pressed or reported.

The number? I thought you said percentage? What's the exact link you're looking at?

As I say, I wouldn't set too much store by the BCS. Just ask any person working in A&E whether drink-related violence is going up.

[American]

Can only find back until the early 80s, but the number of crimes are almost the same, despite 4 million more residents. Violent crime (as a % of total crimes committed) has only gone up by 3 percent:

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/bcs1.html - towards the bottom - measuring crime for the past 25 years.

The number of crimes are almost the same. The percentage of said crimes that are violent have only slightly gone up.

"Measuring crime for the past 25 years" is the link.

I'd be shocked if as much drink related violence years ago was reported, as people didn't tend to run to the cops after every fight.

[Fife Rover]

Teddy boys in the fifties Fife? The gangsters of the 20's 30's or 40's before that, although nowhere near the scale of today's violence. Apart from that, I don't know of anything.

It's all down to personal standards Fife. They are much lower now than they ever were.

I know what you are saying Den, but there is a very easy way to prove the point one way or the other. You only have to go and look up the records of your local newspapers to find out whether or not there is more or less crimes of violence taken on average per year over the East Lancs district (say from Colne to Blackburn inclusive). This area is covered by the LT on a daily basis, and reports all kinds of criminal activity in the area. The same paper has covered this area for the last 80 years at least, albeit under different names (Lancahire Evening Telegraph, Northern Daily Telegraph) I have been an avid reader of all these different versions on a daily basis since about 1948. I still spend at least an hour every day reading the on line version, so I can assure you and all the others that doubt me that there has been a very significant increase in the number of reports per day of violent crime and burglary, drug related crime etc over the last few years. If you take a decent sized sample of all of these types of crime over a period say from 1950 to the present day you will find a graph of all crimes taken together growing fairly slowly from a low base in the '50s and increasing exponentially from the '70s to today. This also shows a very rapid increase from around the mid '90s onwards.

There has also been a very noticeable increase in the number of murders reported in the LT in the E. Lancs area over the last 5 years alone. By this I mean taking the last year alone as an instance: How many murders has there been in Blackburn, Darwen, Burnley, Accrington and other smaller towns around the area? If you take the trouble to check this one statistic alone and compare it with the same crime of murder in the same area say 5 years ago you will be both amazed and shocked at the result. To anyone who doubts me I say "Go on try it and see for yourself". Then come back and tell me that things are getting better.

[jim mk2]

. Just ask any person working in A&E whether drink-related violence is going up.

I just did.....and it isn't.

[broadsword]

The number of crimes are almost the same. The percentage of said crimes that are violent have only slightly gone up.

"Measuring crime for the past 25 years" is the link.

I'd be shocked if as much drink related violence years ago was reported, as people didn't tend to run to the cops after every fight.

As I was saying, I wouldn't set too much store by it.

There was a good program on this quite recently with Nick Ross, it seemed clear to me that levels of violent alcohol-fuelled crime are going up.

But hey, you're the guy who's barely lived here and is reliant upon the British Crime Survey, so I guess you must be right.

I just did.....and it isn't.

Who did you ask, Tony Blair?

[jim mk2]

Someone who works in A and E, as you suggested.

But that doesn't suit your agenda, does it ?

[Darwen End]

Nice to see justice has been served and the judge making particular reference to the fact that the case was far from clear cut as was portrayed by the media and which in turn suckered in the sheep of this World, both on this board and all over the land.

[American]

But hey, you're the guy who's barely lived here and is reliant upon the British Crime Survey, so I guess you must be right.

Yes, let's doubt the stats and rely on a small sample of the pubs you go to.....