[Archived] Defence And Mf

[67splitscreen]

I think this needs it's own topic so carrying on from earlier posts, who do we bench to accommodate Warnock and Givet?.

If Sam had any thoughts on it being Nelson we would have a new captain IMO, for me Samba and Nelson are the best partnership as they have played together the longest. Givet is an adequate replacement in CD, of that there is no doubt, but can't see it for the above reason.

So options in Sam's preferred formations of 4-4-2 and 4-3-3, you may of course think 4-5-1 is a better option, that may well be the case once the striker is signed.

IMO Warnock will not warm the bench in a rotational system for long.

Fire away.

[LeChuck]

In my opinion...

Warnock will start if fit. This will be left back if we have enough fit/in form central midfielders, but he will play some games in midfield if needed.

Two from three of Samba/Nelsen/Givet will play centre back. Nelsen always has spells out injured so he could find himself on the bench if Samba and Givet strike up a good partnership at some point.

Jacobsen will be first choice full back, with Emerton doing a bit of a reverse-Warnock (i.e. playing if fit in midfield but filling in at right back if required).

We'll play some form of 4-5-1/4-3-3/4-4-1-1. Whoever the new guy turns out to be will be the focal point. I could maybe see Ghilas playing out wide with Diouf or Pedersen playing the other position.

As a wild guess...

...................Robbo

Jacobsen Samba Givet Warnock

...................Grella

...........Emerton..Dunn

...Ghilas......................Diouf

.............Pogrebynak?

Subs: Bunn, Nelsen, Olsson, Andrews, Pedersen, McCarthy*, Roberts

I think Emerton might take a while to get up to speed though, so it wouldn't surprise me if we started the season with Warnock in the centre, Givet at left back and Nelsen in the middle.

*Actually I believe McCarthy won't be here next season, but he'll do there for now.

Edit: Even though I have Nelsen on the bench there I still think he'll play 20-30 games, it's a squad game nowadays so it's really difficult to pick a first choice 11, in reality teams now have first choice 16s and pick 11 from that on a game-to-game basis.

[tcj_jones]

Personally, I can see us alternating between two formations. The first:

Robinson

Emerton / Samba / Nelsen / Warnock

Diouf / Dunn / Grella / Pedersen

New singing / McCarthy

Nelsen, as captain, won't be on the bench, while I believe that Warnock will be first choice left back. I think that Grella and Dunn would be the first choice pair in CM, but won't feature too often together due to injury. I'd expect N'Zonzi and Andrews to play a considerable number of games.

The second:

.....................Robinson

Emerton / Samba / Nelsen / Warnock

......................Grella

...............Andrews / Dunn

Diouf.................................Pedersen

.................New signing

I'd expect the likes of Van Heerden, N'Zonzi and Hoilett to be gradually blooded in from the bench or to fill in for injuries and suspensions.

[67splitscreen]

In my opinion...

Warnock will start if fit. This will be left back if we have enough fit/in form central midfielders, but he will play some games in midfield if needed.

Two from three of Samba/Nelsen/Givet will play centre back. Nelsen always has spells out injured so he could find himself on the bench if Samba and Givet strike up a good partnership at some point.

Jacobsen will be first choice full back, with Emerton doing a bit of a reverse-Warnock (i.e. playing if fit in midfield but filling in at right back if required).

We'll play some form of 4-5-1/4-3-3/4-4-1-1. Whoever the new guy turns out to be will be the focal point. I could maybe see Ghilas playing out wide with Diouf or Pedersen playing the other position.

Unless we keep him as club captain and rotate the team captain on the day.

As a wild guess...

...................Robbo

Jacobsen Samba Givet Warnock

...................Grella

...........Emerton..Dunn

...Ghilas......................Diouf

.............Pogrebynak?

Subs: Bunn, Nelsen, Olsson, Andrews, Pedersen, McCarthy*, Roberts

I think Emerton might take a while to get up to speed though, so it wouldn't surprise me if we started the season with Warnock in the centre, Givet at left back and Nelsen in the middle.

*Actually I believe McCarthy won't be here next season, but he'll do there for now.

Edit: Even though I have Nelsen on the bench there I still think he'll play 20-30 games, it's a squad game nowadays so it's really difficult to pick a first choice 11, in reality teams now have first choice 16s and pick 11 from that on a game-to-game basis.

Ok accept your points, however your captain needs to be on the field so where do you see that going, the captain is always first on the team sheet, as in Terry Etc., even in a rotatin squad, injuries accepted of course.

[LeChuck]

I don't think it's that black and white. That would mean we're either forced to play Nelsen every game or strip him of the captaincy if we wish to play him less, and I don't believe that to be the case. Richard Dunne is Man City's captain but was rotated last season.

Like I said, it's hard to pencil in a first choice 11 because it's a squad game. We're now able to select players based on form and fitness, instead like previous seasons where Nelsen was playing through obvious injury and terrible form (I believe that cost us Europe in Hughes' final season). It's a healthy situation but for some reason people are trying to turn it into a problem.

[67splitscreen]

I don't think it's that black and white. That would mean we're either forced to play Nelsen every game or strip him of the captaincy if we wish to play him less, and I don't believe that to be the case. Richard Dunne is Man City's captain but was rotated last season.

Like I said, it's hard to pencil in a first choice 11 because it's a squad game. We're now able to select players based on form and fitness, instead like previous seasons where Nelsen was playing through obvious injury and terrible form (I believe that cost us Europe in Hughes' final season). It's a healthy situation but for some reason people are trying to turn it into a problem.

It will be a problem for Sam picking the 16 then the 11 to start, glad it's not mine, should have spent more time on FM or whatever it's called.

[LeChuck]

It will be a problem for Sam picking the 16 then the 11 to start, glad it's not mine, should have spent more time on FM or whatever it's called.

It's a good problem though, managers always say they like to have that sort of selection problem. It keeps everyone on their toes and stops people getting complacent.

Warnock and Nelsen have both had awful patches of form over the last two years, but because we didn't have alternatives we had to keep playing them regardless. We should be able to avoid that situation now, as long as we keep them fit anyway.

[T4E]

If we can get 8m for Warnock I'd sell him. Givet is a perfectly good left back (better than Warnock in my opinion) and we could use that money to sign someone for Centre Mid who will really make an impact rather than playing Warnock there as a square peg.

[OscarRaven]

I think this needs it's own topic so carrying on from earlier posts, who do we bench to accommodate Warnock and Givet?.

Fire away.

Morton Gamst Pedersen.

Emerton and Warnock should play right and left 'wing' respectively, although in reality the role will be winning the second ball on the middle/right or middle/left of the pitch respectively rather than beating a man (and of course tracking back to cover the full backs). This will also allow a proper holding midfielder and creative midfield player with freedom to be accommodated in the side.

[RibbleValleyRover]

If we can get 8m for Warnock I'd sell him. Givet is a perfectly good left back (better than Warnock in my opinion) and we could use that money to sign someone for Centre Mid who will really make an impact rather than playing Warnock there as a square peg.

Debatable, i'd say Givet is more of a central defender/left sided defender than a fullback which Warnock is. Givet aint that great at going forward from what i've seen.

And if Givet gets injured you think Olsson can do a job? From what i've seen he's not up to the standard as a fullback, left wing though is a different story. Selling Warnock means we would have to in my opinion buy another left back, eating more into our limited budget.

[67splitscreen]

If we can get 8m for Warnock I'd sell him. Givet is a perfectly good left back (better than Warnock in my opinion) and we could use that money to sign someone for Centre Mid who will really make an impact rather than playing Warnock there as a square peg.

I could see it happening but maybe next summer if Olsson/Gunning came good or a low cost replacement was available as back up, or even Nelson being moved on allowing Givet into CD.

[Sir Ranulf Westwood]

Why have you got Samba in defence when it's obvious Big Sam see's him as RSC's replacement?

[Majiball]

I wouldn't sell Warnock at all, he's our only performing left footed player.

We would be mad to get rid of him as well.

[Kelbo]

Why have you got Samba in defence when it's obvious Big Sam see's him as RSC's replacement?

And why have you got Graham Alexander in midfield?? surely he should have been playing in the masters

[LeChuck]

Selling Warnock means we would have to in my opinion buy another left back, eating more into our limited budget.

I think the theory would be to spend a lot less on a replacement, so the budget would be larger for doing it.

For £8 million I'd probably agree, take the money and strengthen the squad. I don't agree that Givet is a better full back though, he's solid enough but terribly limited offensively. On his day I still think Warnock is as good as any full back outside the top four.

[tcj_jones]

If we can get 8m for Warnock I'd sell him. Givet is a perfectly good left back (better than Warnock in my opinion) and we could use that money to sign someone for Centre Mid who will really make an impact rather than playing Warnock there as a square peg.

Putting aside for a minute the fact that I am hugely against the sale of Warnock on the basis that, aside from Emerton, he is our most valuable player; that Givet has played less than half a season of Premier League football; and that Warnock is one of few players with the try-hard and caring attitude we need to stay clear of relegation with the quality to match, I am amazed that you would sell him for so little.

This is a sellers market at the moment. If we were forced into a sale, we should be looking at a minimum of £10 - 12m and maybe as much as £15m. Furthermore, this summer has proven that buying replacements or signing new additions is far from easy. Sell Warnock and we won't get a player of equal talent in another position, mainly because they won't want to come to us.

In any case, as much as I desperately want CM strengthening, we have too many players in that position and Sam has already brought in a new face, so the idea is pretty much redundant

[tcj_jones]

So, now that our summer spending appears to be over, how do we think the side will line up? I honestly haven't got a clue!

[MarkBRFC]

So, now that our summer spending appears to be over, how do we think the side will line up? I honestly haven't got a clue!

No idea either to be honest, and im not sure Big Sam has either!

Still incredibilly weak in midfield, that will be our downfall this season unless it is addressed.

[joey_big_nose]

So, now that our summer spending appears to be over, how do we think the side will line up? I honestly haven't got a clue!

Originally I thought it would be nailed on that we would play one "proper" striker up top given Allardyce's 'form'. However as we have got both Kalinic and Di Santo and have naff all midfielders, 442 is now far more likely.

So how will we play? Currently I would guess:

----------Di Santo---Kalinic

Pedersen----Warnock---------Diouf

-----------------------Dunn

Givet----Nelsen------Samba----Jackobsen

----------------Robinson

Subs: Brown, Zurab, Andrews, Grella, Hoilett, McCarthy, Roberts

Squad: Van Heerden, Doran, NZonzi,

Injured: Emerton, Reid

Loaned out: Judge, Bunn, Treacy, Gallagher?

If called on that team would do a decent enough job - it certainly an improvement over the one we started last season with. Dunn can spread the ball around a bit. Frankly he is better at it than Grella which is ludicrous considering that is the Australian's natural position (and we paid four million for him...) and not David's. Bah.

A lot would depend on Warnock doing the "Savage" role, but personally I thought he was good at that last year. Strong in the tackle, uncomplicated. Also, based on last seasons stats, he looks like he could contribute 10 goals a season if he starts regularly in midfield which is crucial.

However I think everyone would agree that it would be better if we could sign a proper central player. Chances are even if we do manage that it will be after we play Man City.

[MarkBRFC]

I really hope we dont start the season with Warnock in midfield.

[Amo]

I don't necessarily want us to sell Warnock, as he provides the squad with strength in depth. However, if Olsson can up the defensive side of his game, then it could make financial sense to cash in on Steve. That would also boost the budget/wages for a new midfielder.

[47er]

I don't necessarily want us to sell Warnock, as he provides the squad with strength in depth. However, if Olsson can up the defensive side of his game, then it could make financial sense to cash in on Steve. That would also boost the budget/wages for a new midfielder.

"if" being the key word. I wouldn't like to risk it. Not as if we could get Warnock back if it didn't work out.

[Amo]

"if" being the key word. I wouldn't like to risk it. Not as if we could get Warnock back if it didn't work out.

Well pre-season action should give Sam enough time to see if Olsson is improving or another lame duck.

[joey_big_nose]

Well pre-season action should give Sam enough time to see if Olsson is improving or another lame duck.

Theres only one pre season game left. Olsson has looked decent at left wing, but still a liability at left back.

I don't think we can sell Warnock really and he needs to play as, frankly, he is one of our best players. I think there is a very high likelihood that he will start in midfield as the Givet-Nelsen-Samba-Jacobsen back four seems settled in Sam's mind.

Obviously Sam toyed with the idea of sticking him on the left instead of Pedersen but that was unconvincing.... however, as others have pointed out, the manager has not played him in the centre in pre season at all.

Its going to be quite tough to try and accomodate Warnock, Givet, Nelsen, Samba, Jackobsen and Emerton in the same team.

Imo its pretty nailed on that if he is put on the bench he will look for a move.

[67splitscreen]

Hibs & Dundee