[Archived] Nikola Kalinic

[tony gale's mic]

Matt Derbyshire used to score seemingly ever outing for the under 21's, but it didn't make him good enough for the premeirship though.

If Matt Derbyshire was our top scoring striker this season and had scored 4 in his previous 6 games before being banished from the matchday squad, I'd be clamouring for his return. Especially when the rest of our strikers can't buy goals.

[imy9]

If Matt Derbyshire was our top scoring striker this season and had scored 4 in his previous 6 games before being banished from the matchday squad, I'd be clamouring for his return. Especially when the rest of our strikers can't buy goals.

He has scored 1 premier league goal in his last 4 appearances. Two of the games he started and was ineffectual.

Roberts has 12 in 22 at International level.

Roque 23 in 78 at International level.

[booth]

He has scored 1 premier league goal in his last 4 appearances. Two of the games he started and was ineffectual.

Roberts has 12 in 22 at International level.

Roque 23 in 78 at International level.

Roberts has scored 0 premier league goals in his last 4 appearances.

Roque has scored 0 premier league goals in his last 4 appearances.

All of the games they have started they were ineffectual.

I don't think anyone is saying Kalinic is some kind of goal machine, just that he shouldn't be frozen out the way he has.

How many international goals has he actually scored though. I remember a brace a few weeks ago and a goal against Malta making 3?

If Jason Roberts was to be unleased in the Croatian league I'm sure he would have a field day!

Jason Roberts would struggle to have a field day anywhere because he loses his nerve in front of goal, he's also 33 so with each day getting worse. He's had 22 appearances for Grenada since the late nineties. Roberts has not had one good season for Blackburn Rovers.

Kalinic has only had seven appearances for Croatia so far and scored three goals. He's relatively new to the international team.

[Gav]

If Matt Derbyshire was our top scoring striker this season and had scored 4 in his previous 6 games before being banished from the matchday squad, I'd be clamouring for his return. Especially when the rest of our strikers can't buy goals.

Well maybe I’m just being difficult for the sake of it, I don’t know, but I’d stick with RSC, he’s a shadow of his formerself, due to lack of games and injury, but he’s scored goals at this level, and I believe he’s our best option.

[den]

Den, don't be daft. I didn't say he was anywhere near the quality of Shearer. That's just twisting my words to make yourself feel clever, and for that you really would be better going and doing some kind of college course.

I said I've seen Shearer struggle, yes struggle, playing as a lone striker. Sure he could hold the ball up, and was a million times better than any of our strikers. He was also better than most strikers plying their trade now. However he didn't flourish as well as he did alongside a decent strike partner. I was pointing out that even the very best find the lone striker role a tough one to play. You may disagree but as you failed to adequately read what I wrote, then your eyesight may also fail you when watching football, so it's difficult to take on board.

Maybe you need to re read my post as well Booth. I know you didn't say Niko was as good as Shearer. Do me a favour, nobody would say that. You were suggesting though, because Shearer "struggled" playing on his own up front, that somehow means Niko might be better than what we've seen. Well, you might answer my question, which is - "which of the qualities that Shearer had, does Niko posess"? Surely he needs at least one of them?

BTW, I have a recording on TV, of Shearer playing the lone striker, just in front of Sheringham in the 96 European Championships. It was on ESPN classics recently. He didn't struggle one iota, because he had all the attributes needed to be able to play that role. He was brilliant in the role.

[booth]

Maybe you need to re read my post as well Booth. I know you didn't say Niko was as good as Shearer. Do me a favour, nobody would say that. You were suggesting though, because Shearer "struggled" playing on his own up front, that somehow means Niko might be better than what we've seen. Well, you might answer my question, which is - "which of the qualities that Shearer had, does Niko posess"? Surely he needs at least one of them?

BTW, I have a recording on TV, of Shearer playing the lone striker, just in front of Sheringham in the 96 European Championships. It was on ESPN classics recently. He didn't struggle one iota, because he had all the attributes needed to be able to play that role. He was brilliant in the role.

In front of Sheringham Den. Sheringham. And who did we have in midfield? Not quite the same as playing the lone striker, a mile away from midfield, with the other ten men playing a defensive game.

A quality that Shearer had that Niko possessed? That has nothing whatsoever to do with what I was arguing. To do that would be to actually compare Niko with Shearer and that would be totally unfair. Unfair because players like Shearer rarely come along often and Niko has been playing in a poor team and used mostly as a round peg in a square hole.

I was arguing that the lone striker role is difficult so not to judge a player on that. All of our strikers struggle with it. Most strikers struggle with it point blank.

But if you think Roberts, Benjani and Roque should be in front of a player who has scored most of our goals this season, and has hit a bit of form playing internationally, fair enough.

[den]

In front of Sheringham Den. Sheringham. And who did we have in midfield? Not quite the same as playing the lone striker, a mile away from midfield, with the other ten men playing a defensive game.

Shearer was still playing the lone striker, no matter who was behind him Booth. That's because he had the ability to play that role. He could hold the ball up - full stop.

A quality that Shearer had that Niko possessed? That has nothing whatsoever to do with what I was arguing. To do that would be to actually compare Niko with Shearer and that would be totally unfair.

No it isn't comparing the two. It's simply listing the qualities, surely of which some are needed, to be a striker in the PL.

But if you think Roberts, Benjani and Roque should be in front of a player who has scored most of our goals this season, and has hit a bit of form playing internationally, fair enough.

Now who needs to go to a college course?

I don't rate any of them Booth. Technically, Roque is streets ahead of all of them, but it's no use if he can't get around the park on anything like a regular basis.

I think we pretty much agree on the whole. I would just say that there are plenty of strikers around who can play the lone front man very well.

[booth]

Shearer was still playing the lone striker, no matter who was behind him Booth. That's because he had the ability to play that role. He could hold the ball up - full stop.

No it isn't comparing the two. It's simply listing the qualities, surely of which some are needed, to be a striker in the PL.

Now who needs to go to a college course?

I don't rate any of them Booth. Technically, Roque is streets ahead of all of them, but it's no use if he can't get around the park on anything like a regular basis.

I think we pretty much agree on the whole. I would just say that there are plenty of strikers around who can play the lone front man very well.

Shearer could hold the ball up, and when supplemented by another good striker he was amazing. I will agree on that.

I can't say whether Niko would be any better when supplemented by a good strike partner because I've yet to see it.

It's hypothetical but I think if Bilic was to suddenly be appointed as manager of BRFC, I believe we would see a different NK.

If you want a quality of Niko, I've seen him score goals this season. That's probably the most important attribute of a striker, and as we need goals to keep us up I would prefer Niko to be at least on the bench. A couple of games ago I would have put Roque in front of Niko in the pecking order, but after the Brum game, Roque just didn't look interested at all. I'm sure some of that would be his own frustration but I really do feel like we've backed the wrong horse by bringing him here on loan. To even think of signing him permanent at the moment, on what would be a huge contract, just highlights that Kean has no clue.

[BPF]

He's on his way out as a failed Sam purchase.

There is no two ways about it.

[steo]

He's on his way out as a failed Sam purchase.

There is no two ways about it.

That's bull,he is our best striker by a mile and that idiot kean has frozen him out for no reason,he will leave and i bet he comes back to haunt us next season,he's still young unlike roberts,benjani and roque(if we sign him) i think it's a disgrace the way he's been treated and we look a better team with him in it.

[tony gale's mic]

I think we massively overrate Roque in general on here, just because the one season in his career when he wasn't rubbish happened to be at Rovers.

[imy9]

Roque when fit is a top class player, having played countless years at the biggest club in Germany and then plying his trade in the pl, he has a proven record at international too, when he is not scoring he is providing for his team mates with his sublime first touch, good vision and hold up play- Kalinic has none of these skills, but yeah he has a great record at u17 level lol.

[RibbleValleyRover]

I think we massively overrate Roque in general on here, just because the one season in his career when he wasn't rubbish happened to be at Rovers.

I would agree with that. When you look back at his first season here and how well he did you also have to factor in the 'Bentley' influence.

[ada2020]

I think we massively overrate Roque in general on here, just because the one season in his career when he wasn't rubbish happened to be at Rovers.

Oh certainly, and Nicko has done what to gain this reputation as our best striker?

No wait, don't tell me, I'll get it in a minute I'm sure.........

[tony gale's mic]

Roque when fit is a top class player, having played countless years at the biggest club in Germany and then plying his trade in the pl, he has a proven record at international too, when he is not scoring he is providing for his team mates with his sublime first touch, good vision and hold up play- Kalinic has none of these skills, but yeah he has a great record at u17 level lol.

He never scored more than 5 league goals in a season in 8 seasons at the biggest club in Germany. He obviously had the one great season for us, but for three seasons since then he's been rubbish again. How do you think we managed to get hold of him for £3.5 million? Bayern don't sell major assets for £3.5 million.

Is he really providing for teammates? I don't have any figures for Bayern, but in his one great season for us he got 7 league assists - a decent tally. Season after that he got 2 assists in 20 games, 0 assists in 26 league and cup games for Man City and again 0 goals and 0 assists for Rovers since his return. Roque is very much a striker rather than a forward (Cantona, Rooney, Beardsley etc) in the way he plays - only he's not very good at scoring goals. He's not really much of a provider is he?

Kalinic has scored as many league goals in his 16 games this season as Roque ever did in any of his seasons in Germany. I'm not saying Niko is a world beater, but his career is on an upward curve, he's averaged out a goal every two full games this season and Roque has done nothing since his arrival.

Like I said, Roque is massively overrated by people on this board.

Oh certainly, and Nicko has done what to gain this reputation as our best striker?

No wait, don't tell me, I'll get it in a minute I'm sure.........

What's Roque done apart from one flash in the pan season?

Niko's got a scoring record this season far better than any of the rest of our misfiring strikers, which means he deserves at least a chance.

[booth]

when he is not scoring he is providing for his team mates with his sublime first touch, good vision and hold up play-

So in his last eight matches he has displayed a sublime first touch, good vision and hold up play?

I think in your haste to discredit NK, you are coming out with a load of old twaddle

[imy9]

Another way of looking at it would be that he is playing with injuries to help the team- when fit he is our best striker.

TGM- firstly he spent 8 seasons at Bayern- obvious that no one rated him there. When we got him for 3.3 million that was with a clause that they would get 20% when we sold him I believe that would mean Bayern sold him for 7 million, a sizeable fee.

Kalinic on an upward curve? Take out two goals vs West Brom who have the record for longest time in top flight without a clean sheet and a goal keeper dropping the ball at Niko's feet at Everton and what are you left with? A player who has scored very few goals in the pl vs any decent teams.

I would play Kalinic up front with another striker but not as a lone front man, should be on the bench IMO

Man city today would get a bigger fee for Roque than we would for Kalinic.

[booth]

Man city today would get a bigger fee for Roque than we would for Kalinic.

With Roque's wage demands, I wouldn't be quite so sure.

Unless of course Kean sells Kalinic to buy Santa Cruz, and pays silly money + silly wages. I could actually see that happening.

Also that Everton goal, Roberts wouldn't have scored that. Even Allardyce commended him on how he took that.

[tony gale's mic]

Another way of looking at it would be that he is playing with injuries to help the team- when fit he is our best striker.

TGM- firstly he spent 8 seasons at Bayern- obvious that no one rated him there. When we got him for 3.3 million that was with a clause that they would get 20% when we sold him I believe that would mean Bayern sold him for 7 million, a sizeable fee.

Kalinic on an upward curve? Take out two goals vs West Brom who have the record for longest time in top flight without a clean sheet and a goal keeper dropping the ball at Niko's feet at Everton and what are you left with? A player who has scored very few goals in the pl vs any decent teams.

Man city today would get a bigger fee for Roque than we would for Kalinic.

No, Bayern still sold him for £3.3 million. That's how much they valued him at.

Sell on fees are immaterial to how much Bayern valued him at - at best we can say that if £3.3 million was Bayern's valuation of him, they guessed Rovers would sell him on for the same amount (if he was a big success it'd be more, if it was a failure it'd be less) and so if we want to be generous we'd say Bayern figured they'd end up getting around £4 million for him.

It wasn't "obvious" no one rated Roque at Bayern. He got multiple chances - four of the seasons he was at Bayern he played over 30 games for the club. In total he played 188 games for them over 8 years - so between 20 and 25 appearances per season. But at the same time he continually failed to perform. Remember this is a league which is a tier below the English, Italian and Spanish leagues.

Even his Paraguay scoring record isn't that good - 23 goals in 79 appearances. His record is very similar to Jose Cardozo's, who never got any higher than playing in the Mexican League.

Why are you taking out goals that Kalinic scored? Every striker scores fortuitous goals, all of them count, and West Brom are a similar calibre of team to the likes of Blackpool, Stoke, West Ham and Blackpool all of whom we failed to beat. Were it not for Kalinic's goals that day we wouldnt have won that game against West Brom either. Kalinic might have had a bit of good fortune with the keeper dropping the ball, but surely every Rovers fan remembers the amount of times he hit the woodwork last season too. And that Everton goal was a better goal than you give him credit for, he showed very quick reflexes and a real striker's instinct. Howard didn't drop the ball for that long.

Roque is as useless as the rest of our forwards, one great season and eleven rubbish ones does not make a top class player. Kalinic isn't necessarily the answer but since Roque isn't firing, he arguably deserves a run in the side.

[HemelRover]

I think we massively overrate Roque in general on here, just because the one season in his career when he wasn't rubbish happened to be at Rovers.

I agree totally. The one good season with us was a complete fluke.

[imy9]

No, Bayern still sold him for £3.3 million. That's how much they valued him at.

Sell on fees are immaterial to how much Bayern valued him at - at best we can say that if £3.3 million was Bayern's valuation of him, they guessed Rovers would sell him on for the same amount (if he was a big success it'd be more, if it was a failure it'd be less) and so if we want to be generous we'd say Bayern figured they'd end up getting around £4 million for him.

It wasn't "obvious" no one rated Roque at Bayern. He got multiple chances - four of the seasons he was at Bayern he played over 30 games for the club. In total he played 188 games for them over 8 years - so between 20 and 25 appearances per season. But at the same time he continually failed to perform. Remember this is a league which is a tier below the English, Italian and Spanish leagues.

Even his Paraguay scoring record isn't that good - 23 goals in 79 appearances. His record is very similar to Jose Cardozo's, who never got any higher than playing in the Mexican League.

Why are you taking out goals that Kalinic scored? Every striker scores fortuitous goals, all of them count, and West Brom are a similar calibre of team to the likes of Blackpool, Stoke, West Ham and Blackpool all of whom we failed to beat. Were it not for Kalinic's goals that day we wouldnt have won that game against West Brom either. Kalinic might have had a bit of good fortune with the keeper dropping the ball, but surely every Rovers fan remembers the amount of times he hit the woodwork last season too. And that Everton goal was a better goal than you give him credit for, he showed very quick reflexes and a real striker's instinct. Howard didn't drop the ball for that long.

Roque is as useless as the rest of our forwards, one great season and eleven rubbish ones does not make a top class player. Kalinic isn't necessarily the answer but since Roque isn't firing, he arguably deserves a run in the side.

So Roque was given about 20-25 games a season (when fit he played) yet he was a failure, simple question if Roque was failing to perform then why continue to play him, the guy has got a champions league medal at home. The German league is in the top 4 in the world but Bayern are one of the biggest teams in the world- fact, so to play for them for 8 years is a huge achievement. The sell on clause shows that they knew if fit he would come good and then they would reap the benefits when he was sold- similar to Bentley when he left Arsenal.

23 goals in 79 apps- 1 in 3 is not very good but you highlight in a previous post Kalinic's international record of 3 goals in 7 apps (1 goal vs Cyprus) as being good.

Finally I mention taking out some goals so that you can get a true picture of his season. How many assists has he had? When has Kalinic had a good game for Rovers if you take out his goals in games (of which there are few). After his sending off vs West Brom he had two starts- both times he flopped. Comparing RSC Vs Kalinic and their records is laughable IMO.

[Tom]

Niko's got a scoring record this season far better than any of the rest of our misfiring strikers, which means he deserves at least a chance.

I bet Benjani's goals / minutes ratio isn't much worse.

Niko is over rated on this board for sure.

[imy9]

That would be an interesting stat, Benjani's time to goals scored.

[tony gale's mic]

So Roque was given about 20-25 games a season (when fit he played) yet he was a failure, simple question if Roque was failing to perform then why continue to play him, the guy has got a champions league medal at home. The German league is in the top 4 in the world but Bayern are one of the biggest teams in the world- fact, so to play for them for 8 years is a huge achievement. The sell on clause shows that they knew if fit he would come good and then they would reap the benefits when he was sold- similar to Bentley when he left Arsenal.

23 goals in 79 apps- 1 in 3 is not very good but you highlight in a previous post Kalinic's international record of 3 goals in 7 apps (1 goal vs Cyprus) as being good.

Finally I mention taking out some goals so that you can get a true picture of his season. How many assists has he had? When has Kalinic had a good game for Rovers if you take out his goals in games (of which there are few). After his sending off vs West Brom he had two starts- both times he flopped. Comparing RSC Vs Kalinic and their records is laughable IMO.

So in one post you've said that it was obvious Bayern didn't really rate him, and the next post you're saying Bayern must have rated him because they played him 20-25 games per season? That's a massive contradiction surely? Make your mind up..

Bayern rated him to an extent, they obviously thought he had the talent (and he does possess talent IMO but can't apply himself consistently at the top level) so he got plenty of games. They didn't rate him that much or else he wouldn't have been an unused substitute in the 2001 Champions' League final. He didn't play a single game in that European campaign - just like David May never played a minute in United's 1999 Champions' League campaign.

However they obviously thought he was worth keeping on their books and giving him a run in the side sometimes/having as a substitute to bring on. In that respect he got plenty of chances but never really impressed.

But in the end they sold him for £3.3 million. You can't compare the sales of Bentley and RSC. Arsenal were selling a young player who never really got a run in the first team, who was playing in a position where they had enough talent, who had the potential to be very good but who had an attitude that Wenger didn't like. RSC had enough runs in the first team at Bayern but disappointed every time, and they sold him at a prime age, an age when most strikers can command their highest transfer fees. You say that Bayern thought "when fit he would come good" - but he was there for EIGHT SEASONS. Most of those seasons he was fit, but he still never came good. I think Bayern were happy to take a decent fee for a striker who'd been largely a disappointment, otherwise they would never have sold him.

How many goals has Roque scored this season? And how many assists? Zero and zero, is the answer.

To put things into further context, since the start of 2008/09 Roque has played 47 times in the league (probably around half of them he started) and contributed 7 goals and 2 assists. In 16 league games alone this season Kalinic has scored 5 goals and 2 assists. Yes I'm leaving out Kalinic's first season but he started that season aged 21 and it was his first season from Croatia - hardly a fair comparison I'm sure you'll agree.

On form alone, Niko is the obvious choice. The fact that RSC's supposed "pedigree" is hugely overstated by people on here is just another factor in the argument.

I bet Benjani's goals / minutes ratio isn't much worse.

Niko is over rated on this board for sure.

I've often been reasonably impressed by Benjani given the amount of stick he's got. If Kean started playing a front two of Benjani and Niko I think it could work reasonably well.

[Baz]

And Shearer playing the lone frontman at Newcastle with Craig Bellamy? There's a huge contradiction somewhere there, I don't think I need to point it out.

If you are going to quote me, then at least remember to put the full sentence in, otherwise you are just trying to make cheap points. Something I see you accused someone else of today.

I said Bellamy supported Shearer from wide-right. Wide-right is not a centre-forward position.

I think if Kalinic had been bought for £250k, no-one would be bothered about him not making the bench.