[Archived] What Happened To Our Money?

[Lathund]

Every club has debts though :S

But not all of them pay them off. Paying off debts = not needing to service it = more money in the coffers. Except for the fiscal year in which the debts are paid off.

Perhaps the plan from the club is to pay off as much of our debts as possible, and avoid accumulating any new debts (Mainly through getting the wage bill under control). Which would put us in a stronger position for the future. But is of course a risk as it means a weaker squad right now. It's a risk worth taking though, because continuing to run at a loss and taking out more debts is a viscious circle. If the club gets bought, it pays off. If we qualify for Europe every year and increase our income that way, it pays off. If we don't do either of those things, we're screwed.

[mark]

If we had kept Roque, would Sam have been forced to sell £10 million worth of players without being allowed to spend a penny. If not, would be have been in any financial danger?

Two genuine questions, I'm intrigued.

I'm glad someone gets it. To re-iterate, I was never having a pop a John Williams or the way the club is being run. And I wasn't suggesting reckless spending that willcripple us long term. Just that we need a midfielder to help us crack on this season and that I am concerned that the money we had set aside for this has been withrawn. At least Sam Allardyce agrees with me.

Is that really such a crazy concern?

[Exiled in Toronto]

If we had kept Roque, would Sam have been forced to sell £10 million worth of players without being allowed to spend a penny. If not, would be have been in any financial danger?

Two genuine questions, I'm intrigued.

No, and of course not.

Of all the banks exposure to risk, being owed 15-18 million by a business that has around 60 million in saleable assets and a guaranteed cash inflow of 50 million this season hardly counts as a toxic loan. It is inconceivable that we would have defaulted on our interest payment. I'm sure the bank has plenty of 125% mortgages on Audley Range dumps that must be giving them far greater cause for concern.

It seems logical to me that the decision to pay down the overdraft has come from Jersey either to make the club more saleable at a cash price they will accept or to reduce the total borrowings of the companies owed by the Trust, although I find the latter explanation implausible as it must be a drop in the ocean compared to the finances of their other companies.

Either way, though, it boils down to the problem of having owners who have no forward agenda for the club other than to sell it.

[67splitscreen]

Opinions are fine, but what I would suggest is that, unless you can put a better business plan together to run BRFC for the next five years than the current board, (put up or shut up) they are performing as well as can be expected (with the odd mistake) under the current restraints.

[PAFELL]

We're told JW reads this board so I thought we could let him know the fans thoughts on our lack of investment in a separate thread to save him time. Now we all have great respect for JW so let's keep our messages polite.

I'm not normally one to whinge about our finances and I have never criticised the powers that be, but this transfer window has left me confused and exasperated. Let's put it simply:

- Surely we can assume there was a transfer budget at the beginning of the summer

- On top of this we've sold players to the tune of 20 million (approx)

- We've spent just 10 million (approx)

That's a profit of 10 million and a transfer budget that are left over.

Of course I understand that the books have to be balanced and that we are in a weak position financially. What I do not understand is why just a portion of the 10 million profits and the amount we had budgeted for players cannot be re-invested in fees and wages in order to improve our league position next season. It almost feels as if we don't want to push on.

We are crying out for a top quality midfielder. Even if our current midfielders were fit it would still be our weakest area by some distance. Only a couple of weeks ago word on the board was that we had £5 million for a midfielder and the brief was "the new Tugay". As far as the fans can see fulfilling this brief is critical to the success we will have this season, what happened?

Additionally, we are dragging our heals while on the brink of signing a player of the calibre of Salgado on a free (!). This, too, has to be questioned.

With Sam at the helm and having taken Ewood back I really feel we could push on and get back to the level we were at the season before last. After takin over last season Sam managed to get near European form from the squad we had and while we have added youth we haven't managed to address our main area of weakness. Backing the manager to buy a quality, experienced midfielder could be the difference between us pushing for Europe and fighting it out in the bottom half again.

PLEASE JW - GIVE SAM SOMETHING TO SPEND.

You forget that there are two transfer windows - the one now and the one in Jan. If Rovers suffer injuries / suspensions or in danger of relegation. Money needs to be kept back for unforseen events. In the meantime the banks are happy, rovers have paid back some of the debt- meaning Rovers are trusted to borrow more if needed.

JW is not the problem, but an asset for Rovers.

My complaint is with the owners of Rovers - they should in my view do all they can to support the club until they are able to sell the club. It would be easir to sell a club that is successful than one in trouble. Though probable also easier to sell a club that is debt free. At the same time it is also obvious that both JW and the trustees have to think long term and not short term. For every club there is always the rainy day time, which would have to be dealt with.

[Kelbo]

I agree JW and the board are doing a great job, as is Sam, but the one thing I dont get is this, when we sell a player, we get a transfer fee, we then lose his wages off the payroll, so why when we buy a player, why are wages equated within the fee!!?

Seems odd this, can anyone answer the question?

[LDRover]

I agree JW and the board are doing a great job, as is Sam, but the one thing I dont get is this, when we sell a player, we get a transfer fee, we then lose his wages off the payroll, so why when we buy a player, why are wages equated within the fee!!?

Seems odd this, can anyone answer the question?

Asked this loads of times myself Kelbo, never had an answer. I can only think it's 'creative' accounting.

[PAFELL]

I agree JW and the board are doing a great job, as is Sam, but the one thing I dont get is this, when we sell a player, we get a transfer fee, we then lose his wages off the payroll, so why when we buy a player, why are wages equated within the fee!!?

Seems odd this, can anyone answer the question?

Agents fees / wage higher for new player / would any tax issues be involved?

[SAS]

Its amazing fans still think there`s money left, and the club wont spend it.

If you had a debt would you spend more money on top of it? And would the bank let you??

NO

[Veevs]

How about the fact he has decided to subsidise ticket prices so only Accrington and Huddersfield are cheaper than us of the entire 92 clubs????????

I disagree with this one:

1 - Increased regular fan base

2 - Increased sponsorship money due to much higher attendances

3 - Increased money from Shirt sales/souvenirs/facilities etc

4 - Due to higher attendances for a few years more loyal young fans will be drawn to the club

5 - Low season ticket costs will also bring in people from further afield to watch matches widening our catchment area

6 - More revenue from above = More money = more money for player wages/purchases = better team or a more purchasable football club

Personally I believe that the owners are simply lining the club up for sale, good balance book, low debts, high attendances, lots of season tickets sold (one of the reasons I believe we could not find a buyer in our much published attempt to sell Rovers)....

JW and Sam are doing a great job considering:

We lowered the wage bill, increased quality in the team, most of the deadwood shipped out, invested in youth (not just first team squad), made a bold move with season ticket prices, have a good manager and we will not struggle like the first half of last season..

But to me its not all good, we might of gone a little too far in attempting to make us look shiny for a sale/balancing the books..

1 - We are only one of four with a positive in transfer revenue, nice in some ways bad in others as generally this means other teams are improving while we are not investing

2 - Last season showed us selling our best players and not replacing them can really have really bad consequences

3 - Without the odd investment players will leave as they consider us to lack ambition and force sales/not perform

4 - Lowering season ticket prices may be countered by not offering a team that people want to watch

5 - 1 or 2 players imo would make the difference between 14-15th place and 7-8th place.. at 750k per place, sponsorship rev etc, they would almost pay for themselves.. never mind the outside chance of a euro place

The Salgado situation was the one that annoyed me, for a relative small investment we may miss out on a player that would help build our younger players, provide a presence/inspiration on the pitch and give rovers a bit of much needed prestige (not just in the UK).

I just feel meeting Sams requirements half way at least would make a massive difference to team performance which would actually increase revenues short and long term..

I guess the overall problem is like every fan we want to see us do well not just plod along.. we all know we are short on a couple of players at most, we all know we sold RSC for daft money, most of us trust sam given the investment can acheive it and we all love this club.

I am also not the only person here thinking that the owners (not JW) had given Sam a budget then corrected the budget at the 11th hour stopping him bringing in the players he felt we needed.. why else would Salgado, Ybeha and Rothen come over and costing us the travel/hospitality/time if Sam had not thought that the money was there for them.

[mark]

Personally I believe that the owners are simply lining the club up for sale, good balance book, low debts, high attendances, lots of season tickets sold (one of the reasons I believe we could not find a buyer in our much published attempt to sell Rovers)....

...we might of gone a little too far in attempting to make us look shiny for a sale/balancing the books..

...1 or 2 players imo would make the difference between 14-15th place and 7-8th place.. at 750k per place, sponsorship rev etc, they would almost pay for themselves.. never mind the outside chance of a euro place...

...I am also not the only person here thinking that the owners (not JW) had given Sam a budget then corrected the budget at the 11th hour stopping him bringing in the players he felt we needed.

very interesting point about lining up a sale and totally agree with your other point that we may have gone to far balancing the books.

great post veevs.

[braddock]

1 or 2 players could make the difference. but they might not, and we have spent plenty of money as it is and have debts. We need a gradual change, not knee jerk reactions. I feel Salgado would be a good signing, not too sure about the others mentioned, but at the end of the day our safety is paramount and it is up to the board how many risks they are willing to take. i am happy with transfers this summer, though that is not to say they will be successful. Now is the time to stop unless other players leave.

[Big Fat Sam]

I agree JW and the board are doing a great job, as is Sam, but the one thing I dont get is this, when we sell a player, we get a transfer fee, we then lose his wages off the payroll, so why when we buy a player, why are wages equated within the fee!!?

Seems odd this, can anyone answer the question?

Asked this loads of times myself Kelbo, never had an answer. I can only think it's 'creative' accounting.

What happens with the players contract with our club? If they don't ask for a move do they get some money because we're choosing to sell them???

[Kelbo]

Agents fees / wage higher for new player / would any tax issues be involved?

I dont think other than the PAYE element any taxes would exist unless there were profits made and then any losses would be offset against any tax liability!

We lost off the payroll, Villanueva, Tugay, OOoijer, Derbyshire, Santa Cruz, Vogel, Nolan, and Simpson, we have Bunn and Treacy out on loan, Kilinac and

Di Santo didnt arrive until August so we gained a months wages on those two players!!

We have signed Kilinac who will be on much less than Santa Cruz, Jacobson on less than Ooijer, plus Van Heerden, NZonzi (who will not be on big money) and Givet!! Hoilet ws still a Rovers player and will be on peanuts compared to the rest.

So we have 8 players out, 2 out on loan and only 6 players in, apart from Givet, the rest on comparartively low wages!!

Thats why I asked the question, this is not to say anyone is taking the money, its a question which I think needs answering though because I think the savings

would be close to the £5,000,000 we needed to cut off the wage bill!!

If that is the case, then I ask someone from the club to tell me why a fee for a player, includes his wages when calculating the managers spending ability!!

Dont forget, we backed the clown last year with money for players, despite half of Bentleys fee going to Arsenal!!

So last year, we had Robinson, £3,500,000 Keith Andrews £1,000,000 Villanueva (£5,000,000 if he stayed) Simpson on loan out of an income of around £10,000,000 if we include Friedel -- this year, we have coined in £18,000,000 Santa Cruz, £3,000,000 Derbs and Sam has only got half that to spend!!

Any answers??

[malk]

Surely part of the stopping in spending at the current time would be related to the players in question? If Allardyce asked the board to stump up for Kalinic as a midfielder then it might be a different story to a 33 year old right back?

I get the impression that Allardyce thinks that we're a similar team to Bolton in terms of funds when we probably have significantly less. I'd have to say that I doubt Salgado on 40k per week wouldn't make enough of a difference by himself to put us three places higher in the league i.e. enough to cover said wages.

I like what we've done in the offseason and think it's already enough to be a significant improvement on last season. Allardyce plus Givet and Diouf increased our ppg from 0.722 to 1.40. Now we have added an extra couple of strikers (Di Santo and Kalinic), a bit of miscellaneous flair in Hoilett and van Heerden and swapped Oojer for Jacobsen and Mokoena for N'Zonzi.

On paper we cannot be worse, four extra players and two like for like swaps. Keep out powder dry, save the cash and if necessary have a look for extras in January.

Midfield will need looking at eventually but Allardyce is surely being prudent in seeing what he has in Dunn, Reid, Grella etc before making a decision.

[Kelbo]

Surely part of the stopping in spending at the current time would be related to the players in question? If Allardyce asked the board to stump up for Kalinic as a midfielder then it might be a different story to a 33 year old right back?

I get the impression that Allardyce thinks that we're a similar team to Bolton in terms of funds when we probably have significantly less. I'd have to say that I doubt Salgado on 40k per week wouldn't make enough of a difference by himself to put us three places higher in the league i.e. enough to cover said wages.

I like what we've done in the offseason and think it's already enough to be a significant improvement on last season. Allardyce plus Givet and Diouf increased our ppg from 0.722 to 1.40. Now we have added an extra couple of strikers (Di Santo and Kalinic), a bit of miscellaneous flair in Hoilett and van Heerden and swapped Oojer for Jacobsen and Mokoena for N'Zonzi.

On paper we cannot be worse, four extra players and two like for like swaps. Keep out powder dry, save the cash and if necessary have a look for extras in January.

Midfield will need looking at eventually but Allardyce is surely being prudent in seeing what he has in Dunn, Reid, Grella etc before making a decision.

As a manager, sometimes, opportunities arise which you never thought would do, here we have in Salgado a presence who could be an influence both on and off the park, lifting both the team and supporters, I do know the players and he is top class!! we should push the boat out for this one, send Gally and another out on loan and we are almost covered!!

[American]

No. The biggest mistake made by clubs that got relegated, and then found themselves in the financial mire with their futures in jeopardy, was to overspend whilst in the Premier League. This took the clubs to a financial level which couldn't be sustained should they be relegated.

I'd argue that Charlton didn't overspend and actually were closer to us in the way they ran the club. If we were to go down, we'd be screwed at the Championship level with our wage bill if we didn't go straight back up.

(To be fair, though, I've been looking for the football version of Moneyball (LINK) and think I've finally found it. In 442, someone wrote a column about how spending on transfer fees has very little correlation to league placement, but wages have a MUCH larger correlation. I guess it's a matter of finding the right players to give the high wages to.)

It looks like this offseason is going to be a good omen of the future of our transfer dealings, because we are looking at a combination of cheap, younger players who will have future resale value and older, experienced players who will help them adjust and improve their games.

[Kelbo]

I'd argue that Charlton didn't overspend and actually were closer to us in the way they ran the club. If we were to go down, we'd be screwed at the Championship level with our wage bill if we didn't go straight back up.

(To be fair, though, I've been looking for the football version of Moneyball (LINK) and think I've finally found it. In 442, someone wrote a column about how spending on transfer fees has very little correlation to league placement, but wages have a MUCH larger correlation. I guess it's a matter of finding the right players to give the high wages to.)

It looks like this offseason is going to be a good omen of the future of our transfer dealings, because we are looking at a combination of cheap, younger players who will have future resale value and older, experienced players who will help them adjust and improve their games.

Now for a yank that is a great post

Lots of common sense there American, young players do need the experience around them to bring them through, yes I like that post!

[JAL]

For me Salgado is a direct replacement for Ooijer, an ex-captain, a leader on the pitch despite his age, its a 'no brainer' in which the board must act in a positive way and bring the Spaniard to Ewood park.

[Mr. E]

I've asked a similar question myself in the transfer topic but it's still unclear.

Not that I don't believe JW is an honest man who is doing the best he can, but it doesn't add up to me how most of our big-money sells always end up in "banks" and "other investments". Because what would have happened if we had no Duff or Bentley or Santa Cruz to sell? Are we in such serious trouble that every season we have to rely on a huge selling fee in order to survive? All that TV money, sponsorship money etc. can't at least keep us balanced?

JW admits "he's worried", but it would be nice to have more clarification on the issue.

[Big Fat Sam]

At the end of the day we're all just along for the ride, we just have to hope the wave keeps rising.

[Iceman]

There are only 3 clubs that get relegated. You have 38 league games, to stay up or go down. JW is a smart man, and he knows by assembling a hard working squad coupled with a good manager(except Ince) can secure our premier league future. The likes of Pompey, Southampton, Newcastle, Leeds etc have spent big on average players and are paying for it big time now. I still maintain, that our long term future is much brighter than some of these clubs who are concerned at short term success.

[malk]

There are only 3 clubs that get relegated. You have 38 league games, to stay up or go down. JW is a smart man, and he knows by assembling a hard working squad coupled with a good manager(except Ince) can secure our premier league future. The likes of Pompey, Southampton, Newcastle, Leeds etc have spent big on average players and are paying for it big time now. I still maintain, that our long term future is much brighter than some of these clubs who are concerned at short term success.

Unfortunately it's about knowing your place a little bit. Teams like Spurs and Newcastle spend big in the deluded hope they can climb the table whereas we, whilst rolling the dice a bit from time to time, do our best to assemble a mid table team with the chance of doing better... though we don't ever seem to finish mid table, it's either challenging for Europe or trying to escape the drop with us!

If we hadn't signed Jacobsen then I'd be elated with Salgado and I guess I still might be if he comes in a does a job. All I'm saying is that I really want us to have the small squad of versatile players and then look to our youngsters to fill any short term injury gaps. 50k per week additions to a team that I think will already be very comfortable are unnecessary drains on our resources. Let Jacobsen and Emerton fill the right back gap and lets blood N'Zonzi as a defensive midfielder as and when required.

If playing Andrews showed us anything last year it's that you can plug gaps in the premier league and therefore in almost any league. I think he generally played decently but many think he's awful. If the latter is true yet we still averaged 1.4 points per game under Allardyce with him often playing then we certainly worry far too much about getting "greats" for each position.

[Oklahoma]

If we sign Salgado, Emerton will be used as a CM, I think.

[Big Fat Sam]

There are only 3 clubs that get relegated. You have 38 league games, to stay up or go down. JW is a smart man, and he knows by assembling a hard working squad coupled with a good manager(except Ince) can secure our premier league future. The likes of Pompey, Southampton, Newcastle, Leeds etc have spent big on average players and are paying for it big time now. I still maintain, that our long term future is much brighter than some of these clubs who are concerned at short term success.

Jw deserves great credit for the finacial running of our club, without doubt.

But next time we look for a new man I hope he gets someone in to advise a bit more so we avoid a talker taking the reins.