[Archived] Does Style Matter?

[bellamy11]

A point I want to make without sounding condescending:

Both rover6 and spencey7 watch most (if not all) of Rovers games on the telly. That gives them a certain detachment from the atmosphere of a game, as well as the overall experience. When in the ground, you are surrounded by likeminded people with the expectation of victory. When somebody brings the ball down skillfully or plays a magical 70 yard pass we all applaud. When somebody scores a goal (however it is scored) we all jump around and hug each other. When Rovers win everybody goes home in a great mood. It just isn’t comparable. Maybe it’s mob mentality? Whatever it is, I think it goes some way to explaining why there is such a polarisation of views.

I can think of two games that we’ve lost where I was still immensely proud of the football we played. Celtic away (0-1) and Spurs away a few years back (2-3). Still would have felt a lot better if we won though.

I think LeChuck may have made the point last season that Stoke’s football was pretty exciting to watch. Bombs into the box at regular intervals – it gets the pulse racing. West Ham at home has been cited by some as one of the most exciting games last season. It was a battle of will between relentless attack and defence, not a midfield battle of fancy passes going nowhere.

I honestly think the vast majority of people who turn up week in, week out don’t care what style of football we play.

[Paul Mellelieu]

A point I want to make without sounding condescending:

Both rover6 and spencey7 watch most (if not all) of Rovers games on the telly. That gives them a certain detachment from the atmosphere of a game, as well as the overall experience. When in the ground, you are surrounded by likeminded people with the expectation of victory. When somebody brings the ball down skillfully or plays a magical 70 yard pass we all applaud. When somebody scores a goal (however it is scored) we all jump around and hug each other. When Rovers win everybody goes home in a great mood. It just isn’t comparable. Maybe it’s mob mentality? Whatever it is, I think it goes some way to explaining why there is such a polarisation of views.

I can think of two games that we’ve lost where I was still immensely proud of the football we played. Celtic away (0-1) and Spurs away a few years back (2-3). Still would have felt a lot better if we won though.

I think LeChuck may have made the point last season that Stoke’s football was pretty exciting to watch. Bombs into the box at regular intervals – it gets the pulse racing. West Ham at home has been cited by some as one of the most exciting games last season. It was a battle of will between relentless attack and defence, not a midfield battle of fancy passes going nowhere.

I honestly think the vast majority of people who turn up week in, week out don’t care what style of football we play.

Yes, going to the game, making the link between sense of place and club is for me what it's all about. If it's not, you might as well just cheer on Arsenal and Barcelona,

[Majiball]

Spain at the moment is different, Real, Barca, Valencia etc are all producing good young players, I wonder why?

Can that be why the elusive Majiball wants to do his A License in Spain??

I wish the guy was back on here, had the pleasure of meeting him and he is a very knowledgable guy, knows his football

and sees things very quickly during games but he told me we are light years behind Spain, an A license here takes 18 months, in Spain three and a half years!!

Are we fast tracking our coaches to get quantity rather than quality?

Always Lurking.

Part of the reason I love this club, is the Motto arte et labour with skill and labour the way it should be.

[mellison24]

I recall that I felt awesome after that 2007 semi against chelski. We lost and played well, but i seem to recall the ball being in the air quite a bit. But that doesn't change the fact we played out of our skins!! I don't care how we win. Just that we win!!

[yoda]

Always Lurking.

Part of the reason I love this club, is the Motto arte et labour with skill and labour the way it should be.

does it not translate as

Art Thru' Labour, ie put in the hard work and the art will follow

Thats' what we were taught it meant at school, could have been a dodgy teacher though

[Uddersfelt Blue]

does it not translate as

Art Thru' Labour, ie put in the hard work and the art will follow

Thats' what we were taught it meant at school, could have been a dodgy teacher though

Surely it translates as Skill and Labour. It could be assumed that the skill comes before the labour but more likely both in equal amounts.

[CrazyIvan]

Surely it translates as Skill and Labour. It could be assumed that the skill comes before the labour but more likely both in equal amounts.

In all walks of life, work must always outweighs skill. Without work, skill is pointless. Without skill, work is still work just not as good as that done with skill. The best have both but really it's probably 98% work to 2% skill.

[tcj_jones]

A point I want to make without sounding condescending:

Both rover6 and spencey7 watch most (if not all) of Rovers games on the telly. That gives them a certain detachment from the atmosphere of a game, as well as the overall experience. When in the ground, you are surrounded by likeminded people with the expectation of victory. When somebody brings the ball down skillfully or plays a magical 70 yard pass we all applaud. When somebody scores a goal (however it is scored) we all jump around and hug each other. When Rovers win everybody goes home in a great mood. It just isn’t comparable. Maybe it’s mob mentality? Whatever it is, I think it goes some way to explaining why there is such a polarisation of views.

I can think of two games that we’ve lost where I was still immensely proud of the football we played. Celtic away (0-1) and Spurs away a few years back (2-3). Still would have felt a lot better if we won though.

I think LeChuck may have made the point last season that Stoke’s football was pretty exciting to watch. Bombs into the box at regular intervals – it gets the pulse racing. West Ham at home has been cited by some as one of the most exciting games last season. It was a battle of will between relentless attack and defence, not a midfield battle of fancy passes going nowhere.

I honestly think the vast majority of people who turn up week in, week out don’t care what style of football we play.

EXACTLY RIGHT. I was actually going to post similar.

Furthermore, when you're accustomed to watching the likes of Arsenal, Man UTD and Barcelona on TV, watching Rovers seems boring in comparison. Saying that, I still find Allardyce's football entertaining to watch on the tele.

[Stuart]

Always Lurking.

Part of the reason I love this club, is the Motto arte et labour with skill and labour the way it should be.

Thought you'd gone? I want my money back from the whip round we had.

Those posting about skill and labour have got it right. Football NEEDS both. If teams only played with skill, it'd be a non-contact sport and NONE of us want to see that!

[mellison24]

Thought you'd gone? I want my money back from the whip round we had.

Those posting about skill and labour have got it right. Football NEEDS both. If teams only played with skill, it'd be a non-contact sport and NONE of us want to see that!

A level latin: the way it is phrased means 'skill through work'. Which implies work in order to display the skill. Its part of the process!!

[thenodrog]

Take your silly self imposed blinkers off and understand that a long ball game does not win titles, neither does a total passing game either. It's a combination of both and the quality of the players carrying it out.

What's written on our badge again?

Suprised you needed to ask after I'd already explained the principles.

I recall that I felt awesome after that 2007 semi against chelski. We lost and played well, but i seem to recall the ball being in the air quite a bit. But that doesn't change the fact we played out of our skins!! I don't care how we win. Just that we win!!

Indeed. Didier Drogba must have had a banging headache after.

[Kelbo]

Suprised you needed to ask after I'd already explained the principles.

Indeed. Didier Drogba must have had a banging headache after.

illigitimi non carborundum

[92er]

A level latin: the way it is phrased means 'skill through work'. Which implies work in order to display the skill. Its part of the process!!

We were taught it meant "through skill and hard work".

[thenodrog]

illigitimi non carborundum

They never do.

[broadsword]

Surely it translates as Skill and Labour. It could be assumed that the skill comes before the labour but more likely both in equal amounts.

“The artist is nothing without the gift, but the gift is nothing without work.”

To address Paul's comment that "arte" is latin for "skill", it should also be noted that the etymology of the English word "art" is defined as follows (Merriam webster):

Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin art-, ars — more at arm Date: 13th century

Furthermore, the first defined meaning in MW is thus:

1 : skill acquired by experience, study, or observation <the art of making friends>

so in that sense "art" and "skill" can be used interchangeably in the translation.

[BuckyRover]

It wasn't brilliant to watch on Saturday.

I think that has more to do with the fact I didn't expect us to score.

[mellison24]

We were taught it meant "through skill and hard work".

I used it as part of my coursework and if i buggered up that translation it wudv fallen to pieces. So it must have been right.. Perhaps one of those with many translations and we see it how we want.

[Commondore]

Something that really bothers me when this discussion turns up, in one incarnation or another, is the argument that "style-football" is for a maximum of 6-8 teams in the whole world, while the rest of us has to depend on hoofball to survive. Look at West Brom last season, their squad was way below ours in width, skill, quality and worth and yet they where only three points from surviving while constantly trying to play attacking football with the ball firmly on the ground. A slightly better squad would not have gone down, and an even more slightly better squad would hav achieved even better things.

[whittle blue]

Arte et labore

I reckon both nouns are in the ablative case = by/with/from

Therefore, Arte et Labore =with skill and with work (effort)

[tony gale's mic]

Something that really bothers me when this discussion turns up, in one incarnation or another, is the argument that "style-football" is for a maximum of 6-8 teams in the whole world, while the rest of us has to depend on hoofball to survive. Look at West Brom last season, their squad was way below ours in width, skill, quality and worth and yet they where only three points from surviving while constantly trying to play attacking football with the ball firmly on the ground. A slightly better squad would not have gone down, and an even more slightly better squad would hav achieved even better things.

I can't believe you're using West Brom as an example to back up some of the idiots in this thread.

West Brom played some nice stuff but they ultimately failed. Stoke on the other hand played some horrible hoofball, worse than Allardyce, and they stayed up and are competing against the big boys for one more season. "Only three points from survival" FFS. Remember the only reason why we were even down there was thanks to Ince's attempts to play pretty triangles, had we played under Allardyce all season we wouldve been around 10th and West Brom wouldnt have even come near us.

For some people to say that Sam has had the chance to sort out the midfield problem is rubbish. He had a small amount of money in January, he used this to sign Diouf who's becoming a Blackburn End favourite. He loaned in Givet who was excellent and then signed him full time this summer. Getting the defence solid is probably the most important key to survival.

This summer we needed a new striker after RSC left, we signed Kalinic which used up most of our funds. After signing Givet up and a few small transfers (one of which was N'Zonzi who could become a great addition) he's had the money supply cut off. Considering the sort of player we're after would cost at least £5m if we want some sort of assured quality, how on earth do they think that Sam's had a chance to sort out our midfield problem?

Like I and many others have said, nothing beats the joy of seeing your side win. We were unlucky to lose against a team of stars assembled at a massive price on Saturday, and with all sorts of injuries too. Doesn't take long to get the anti-Sam brigade out against the man who saved us from oblivion does it?

[tonyoz]

It's arte and labore for me. I want to see thundering, bone-crunching tackles flying in from Warnock, I want to see Samba frighten the living daylights out of the fancy-dan megastars of our opponents and I wish we had a Savage or a Batty to bite their legs in midfield.

I'm happy to see all our 7 footers pile into the opponents box whenever we have a corner or a Pedersen throw-in. Sam likes to play his percentages and knows that this is one way to set the odds in our favour. It is exciting too........there is an air of expectation (or at least there should be if we had someone who could be relied upon to deliver the ball in the right area consistently.)

But, forgive me, I want more. Please don't tell me that I can never hope to see the likes of Mike Ferguson or Duffer turning the full back inside out, or Jansen picking up the ball in midfield and creating a goal out of nothing, or Ripley's pinpoint cross being smashed into the back of the net by Big Al or even an exquisite Tugay 50 yard pass to split open Man U's defence.

I think we will get a ration of both under Sam eventually because I believe he wants to be remembered as more than a pragmatic, hoofball specialist. He knows he will never get the England job with that sort of reputation.

[Iceman]

Ask West Brom what happens, if you try playing beautiful football. We dont have the players, and we cannot afford to risk our epl staus, just to satisfy a few who are obsessed about style. If you want style, go watch Fashion Tv and even that is questionable. I want results, and if route 1 is going to give me points and preserve our league status then im happy. How many of you on match day, either at the stadium or via tv dont cheer when we score a goal through a long ball? Ive watched on tv, and when we scored a goal from a long ball the fans are delighted. Il then check the message board and see "yesssss" or "get in you beauty" "bennnnniiii" "whooooo" no mention at that point about how the goal was scored. To me a goal is a goal, and a point is a point and it doesnt matter how they are scored.

[Paul]

bellamy11 makes some very good points on this but don't overlook the key factor in philip's post

The blame surely rests fairly and squarely with clubs like Spurs.

Bentley was a brilliant stylish member of the Rovers team who created probably half a dozen chances per match on his own.

Spuds came in with £17m and wrecked his career for Premier League football and England alike.

philip and I are both old enough to have grown up watching football when EVERY team had perhaps 2 or 3 star players, always someone in the opposition's side one would fear / want to watch. We knew who the players were and we wanted to watch them. Look at the England teams of 30-40 years ago, a real mixed bag of clubs represented in the squad / team. Outside the top four / five I'd struggle to name an exciting player in another club's squad - can't think of a single player to worry about on Saturday for example, though I suppose Malbranque and Bent vaguely come into this category but the rest are just like our lot.

This is no longer the case, the moment a player shows some real promise his head will be turned by a so called "bigger" club, a load of nonsense in most cases, and he'll be off for the bright lights, more money and European football. For the fans the end result is most of us have to watch teams full of journeymen, the so called stars disappear to warm a bench somewhere and ruin their careers and never fulfill their promise. The only stimulus for this is money, forget all the tripe spouted by the players, it's money. There have been so many examples of players with real promise losing their way one would have thought the penny would have dropped with most of them but it hasn't.

Just look at the recent list from Rovers, Bentley, Dunn, Duff, RSC (OK wait and see), all buggered off for greater glory, achieved nothing but very large bank balances. Far better to be a big fish in a small pond than a David Bentley at Spurs.

[philipl]

Completely agreed Paul. The moneyside of things is set up to self-destruct football as a spectator sport as it is systematically destroying any emerging side with talent. In such circumstances, Sam's pragmatic approach is undoubtedly the best we can hope for- just a same too many Rovers supporters swallowed the Daily Mail whole on the subject of Sam's Bolton. Bolton produced some very stirring games sticking it up'em at the big boys and perhaps the decline in Bolton attendances might be because they are missing Sam's football as much as his results.

Ince did have Rovers playing good stuff in about two or three games but the fundamental problem was that he is his people were complete tactical numpties and utterly incapable of conveyng what little intelligence they had to their players. By the time the six defeats came around, Rovers were simply a disorganised rabble- beautiful football, ugly football, hooofball- nobody knows what they were doing.

Surprised nobody has mentioned the famous Stuart Hall comment about Rovers- "a bit more labore and a bit less arte lads"

[CAPT KAYOS]

It's arte and labore for me. I want to see thundering, bone-crunching tackles flying in from Warnock, I want to see Samba frighten the living daylights out of the fancy-dan megastars of our opponents and I wish we had a Savage or a Batty to bite their legs in midfield.

I'm happy to see all our 7 footers pile into the opponents box whenever we have a corner or a Pedersen throw-in. Sam likes to play his percentages and knows that this is one way to set the odds in our favour. It is exciting too........there is an air of expectation (or at least there should be if we had someone who could be relied upon to deliver the ball in the right area consistently.)

But, forgive me, I want more. Please don't tell me that I can never hope to see the likes of Mike Ferguson or Duffer turning the full back inside out, or Jansen picking up the ball in midfield and creating a goal out of nothing, or Ripley's pinpoint cross being smashed into the back of the net by Big Al or even an exquisite Tugay 50 yard pass to split open Man U's defence.

I think we will get a ration of both under Sam eventually because I believe he wants to be remembered as more than a pragmatic, hoofball specialist. He knows he will never get the England job with that sort of reputation.

With you on this one .

Despite the result I enjoyed Saturday's game more than I have for any game for a while even when we have won. It was anticipation , surprise frustration and disappointment but still edge of seat at times as well as being boring.

There is a time and a place for all sorts and all kinds in a game of football, balanced with errors incorrect decisions and luck.

Its this mixture (amongst other things) that makes the game popular whilst on the other side downright frustrating and annoying.

There isn't one particular thing it needs to be imo - as long as it proves entertaining and is played in the right spirit and of course we win if possible.