[Archived] Rovers V West Ham

[Tom]

Id be interested if your opinion changed after seeing the replay - mine didnt.

Just watched it now, there was contact but you wont get those often and I think he was looking for it rather than looking to do anything with it.

I too thought NZonzi should have stayed on personally, especially seeing as he is a threat on set pieces so by default offers more than Keith did roday

[joey_big_nose]

A better formation would be to swap the 2 and 1 around. 4-1-3-2. Or even the simplest of 4-4-2 would have worked better. Still racking my brains why we played so defensively againt Wist 'Aaaammm.

Thing is for the midfielders we have at the moment 4231 suits them. It lets the attackers get on with it and the defensive guys sit. In many ways it simplifies things which is good because our only "box to box" midfielders are NZonzi, Pedersen and Andrews. Dunn, Grella, Hoilett, Diouf are all either specialised in defence or attack. If we want to play 442 we need to shoehorn them in which is not ideal.

SO the main issue wasn't the system in my eyes but that we played to deep leaving Roberts enormously isolated in the first half. Pedersen and Andrews never got beyond him. I think we will persevere as Hoilett, Grella and Dunn really suit 4231 and we need to get them playing. If we work the formation well we could be onto a winner.

442 could make our team look a lot more disjointed as it would be hard to see where we would play Dunn and Hoilett effectively and it looks like they are going to be absolutely key for us.

[Miker]

Thing is for the midfielders we have at the moment 4231 suits them. It lets the attackers get on with it and the defensive guys sit. In many ways it simplifies things which is good because our only "box to box" midfielders are NZonzi, Pedersen and Andrews. Dunn, Grella, Hoilett, Diouf are all either specialised in defence or attack. If we want to play 442 we need to shoehorn them in which is not ideal.

SO the main issue wasn't the system in my eyes but that we played to deep leaving Roberts enormously isolated in the first half. Pedersen and Andrews never got beyond him. I think we will persevere as Hoilett, Grella and Dunn really suit 4231 and we need to get them playing. If we work the formation well we could be onto a winner.

442 could make our team look a lot more disjointed as it would be hard to see where we would play Dunn and Hoilett effectively and it looks like they are going to be absolutely key for us.

That's spot on. I think Dunn, Hoilett and Grella absolutely have to start for us and it will be hard to fit them into a 442 as well. 4-2-3-1 is the formation that's most suitable to our team right now based on the players we have, as you said.

[Baz]

I suggest you watch again. Grella put in numerous well timed sliding tackles in to win the ball and was constantly involved in breaking up play and passing the ball out to the midfielders higher up the pitch. I'm not sure how much more you can expect from him. N'zonzi didn't do badly, but was NOT the most effective of the 2.

Dunn is our ball playing midfielder. He ran at the defense numerous times and was constantly searching for a through ball or a lob to set up another player, which he sometimes did successfully. A fit Dunn is better than any other midfielder we could afford.

Wolves is a must win now and I wouldn't expect us to lose that game. If we do lose it, then I'll be the first to say I'm wrong, we have a team and Sam has no idea what he's doing.

I think I'll agree to disagree on Grella Miker. For me Newcastle last season was his best performance by a mile, but he needs to contribute more to the team, breaking up play and making simple sideways or backwards passing isn't enough. Grella seems to lay the ball off and then do nothing, there was situation during the second half when he got the ball and was breaking upfield into space, and seemed to panic and ended up despite no-one being around him passing it backwards for that player to run forwards. Quality footballers don't do that.

As for Dunn being our ball playing midfielder, yes, but he's not fit regularly enough, or mobile enough these days, as much as we'd all like him to be. Its hardly like he has competition is it?

The man who got a standing ovation 5 mins into the game would have won it today for us. and he's retired.

[joey_big_nose]

I think I'll agree to disagree on Grella Miker. For me Newcastle last season was his best performance by a mile, but he needs to contribute more to the team, breaking up play and making simple sideways or backwards passing isn't enough. Grella seems to lay the ball off and then do nothing, there was situation during the second half when he got the ball and was breaking upfield into space, and seemed to panic and ended up despite no-one being around him passing it backwards for that player to run forwards. Quality footballers don't do that.

Hmm. I have to say i thought Grella showed a decent range of passing today and I was suprised just how effective he was at winning the ball. Second half he must have won the ball for or five times. He was also never outpaced which I considered his major weakness.

He is never going to be a guy who carries the ball much, thats why you need to pair him with someone who will.

Grella-NZonzi or Grella-Dunn is the way forward. Keith's days are numbered I think.

[Exiled in Toronto]

What a crap week to be a Rovers fan - zero ambition off and on the pitch.

The good points were Chimbonda who is ten times the defender Warnock is; Junior - thanks for the one moment in the game when my pulse rose above catatonic - and, to a lesser extent Kalinic.

My particular bugbears have each cropped up in other posts: in no particular order,

6 at the back against a lone striker - unbelievable by Allardyce. Welcome to the world of the master tactician. Mo wonder it's only ten quid.

Grella constantly passed the buck to Andrews. The 10-year Serie A man passing responisbility to the lower league journeyman, which makes me deeply suspiscious about his backbone, lack thereof.

I don't know how much longer I can bear to watch Pedersen's complete absence of any creativity whatsoever. Never beats a man, gets a shot on target, puts in a good cross, throws to a Rovers head, anything.

Andrews, who I have defended in the past, simply isn't equipped for what Sam seems to expect of him.

So, in summary, 1 point and 1 goal from hardly the most demanding of opening fixtures. Currently I cannot see where 40 goals and 40 points will come from

[philipl]

I entirely agreed with Scotty's analysis of the game.

Sam in effect has said after the game to judge him on the performance in two weeks' time. We are waiting.... it will be another one when it will be anybody's guess what the line up will be. For now it is a case of hoping for no injuries on international duty and that Kalinic gets on the scoresheet to boost his confidence.

PS 23,451 attendance was very encouraging given West Ham arrived in a minibus and a black mariah.

[brfcs5359]

I would echo most of what has been said.

The Defense

Samba has a concentration problem and for the first 25minutes looked a little loose. Givet is class is proves that money in football is not everything. People who moan class players aren't available are talking rubbish and we should set our ambitions not based on money but on belief. Chimbonda did well. Laid back to Earnocks gusto but aware compared to Warnocks occasional wrecklessness. Robinson had nothing to do. Jacobsen played alright. Not many positives not many negatives though I would add his crossing is excellent.

Only Carlton Cole showed any threat. West Ham for me are in delegation trouble. Upson was the other stand out player in an abysmal team. Cole much an enigma. Everything Roberts isn't outside the box but lime Roberts, too few goals in locker. He would be a good player for us and you can see why big clubs won't touch him.

Midfield

I feel sorry for NZonzi. He did everything right and pressed the ball hard. The only midfielder to do so effectively. The other pressing player Andrews seemed slower into breaking things up. I can see why People felt NZonzi was average. In getting there are getting his foot in, the ball didn't always break to a blues player. However I thought he was class . His passing was top class proffesional. Hit hard and low and done quickly to a Rovers player. He sprayed 3 40 yard balls with pin precision. He was awesome in a poor midfield.

Grella is a poor player. Poor players drop off and play 15 yards deeper than they should and they caause chaos for their own team. The reason Sav as a good player was he pressed the ball and got the whole team to push up and out. Grella did hit 2 beutiful passes wide but the rest was an open invitation for West ham to keep possession in front of him with no desire to help his teamates.

I don't criticise Andrews because he has positives and is a sqaud player. He is it good enough to start but some of the criticism is based on hysteria. Yesterday he again showed he lacks consistant qualities at this level. He would be a top performer in the championship. In truth Andrews would have a been a good player for West Ham yesterday.

Pedersons improved form is based on hmi not giving possession away so cheaply. I think he carried on that winning and retaining the ball. The end product is still missing but throws and workrate are preserving his status as a starter. I wad glad Diouf did not play. As BFS said, he works hard but doesn't offer a lot and won't score goals. I would add that he has good engine, shame it's one from a canal boat.

Up front

With no attacking contributions from out wide, Pedrson or Andrews and with Nzonzi isolated doing ALL the midfield work whilst Grella chained himself lazily to the centre halves, Rovers had no attackers. Roberts is a player who gets teams relegated. He doesn't score, never will and never looms likely. Yet he lulls fans and managers into beleiving him thru workrate, power and strength. He could have played with 3 centre forwards yesterday and still not scored. Dunnn had an excellent game however he couldn't pass to Roberts because Roberts didn't have a clue where he wad running or what he was doing let alone Dunn. So often Dunn got good posssesion made space with a not a single player to pass to and embarrasingly he nearest other Rivers player 50 yards behind him unwilling to move forwards. I have never seen anything like it at Ewood before. I felt sorry for him, his talents wasted. No one does a 1 2 with Roberts because Roberts couldn't trap a bag of cement.

BFS may be right. Injuries et al. Build from the back blah blah. I am sure he was stung my the critisism to make those assertive comments afterwards. Good. I want to see the manager know standards and aspiarations at Rovers have to be higher.

Sent from mobile

[Paul Mellelieu]

Scotty's report was fair.

And if we'd have taken one of the two excellent chances in the last 25 minutes, we'd have gone home happy-ish.

With the players Sam had yesterday, not too unhappy.

Agree that Samba needs Nelsen talking to him to stop the concentration lapses. Givet however was superb, and Chimbonda showed that he's a better player than Warnock, by a margin.

Looking forward to beating Wolves.

[RovertheHill]

I think I'll agree to disagree on Grella Miker. For me Newcastle last season was his best performance by a mile, but he needs to contribute more to the team, breaking up play and making simple sideways or backwards passing isn't enough.

Isn't that all that two legends in that position used to do - Claud Makelele and Robbie Savage?

[Big Fat Sam]

Thoughts:

Why is Den the only one to comment on Chimbonda's obvious lack of a left foot, It will really restrict our play down the left. I'd wanted to see if he had one, but he doesn't and has no confidence in it. Its now a tactical flaw that could be made to work for the opposition. Hurry up and get fit Nelsen so we can play Givet there.

Pleased to see both Dunn and Grella complete a full game.

Why since we had created so many chances with our 442 have we completely changed? We created about double what Sunderland did at Sunderland, yes we lost but it was a couple of bad lapses surely coaching should eliminate it.

I honestly thought we where playing at Upton park such was our negative approach. If ever a game's tactics was based on stat's, yesterdays was, our bogey team come along and we play to draw and not concede. If we're worried about losing to teams of that level at home?

Not one player in yesterdays first 11 has ever scored over 10 goals in this league.

4231 requires lots of what none of our first teamers have pace.

Very dissappointted with our approach yesterday, but pleased to see dunn and grella complete a game and Tugay was back.

7 games to go, improvement is needed.

[AggyBlue]

Thoughts:

Why is Den the only one to comment on Chimbonda's obvious lack of a left foot,

Den has bad eyes. I can say 100% Chimbonda has one.

[RovertheHill]

Den has bad eyes. I can say 100% Chimbonda has one.

Chimbonda played really well - but he did always look to use his right foot. A bit like when Neill used to play the occasional left back for us

[duffbear]

For my Money man of the match good have gone to Dunn, Pascal or Grella.

I was really impressed with Grella today and I thought it was his best game in a Rovers shirt and even said that to him after the game. He sat deep protecting the back 4 and seemed to be in the Tugay role dropping deep and always available for the pass. As someone said on her earlir that he had 31 succesfull passes out of 32! Several of those passes were long range passes and nearly all those found a man and really impressed me. He won several tackles today as well. As another poster mentioned on 1 occasion believe he was going forward and seemed have room to move into but instead decided to pass back, In my opinon he wanted to move into that space but was under strict instructions from Sam to sit and not get forward.

I can understand peoples frustration at the way we lined up and the way we played was it negatie yes should be going for 3 points at home again yes but we lost the first 2 games and needed points on the board, a clean sheet and a confidence boost we got them.

I bet against Wolves up next we will be a lot more attack minded.

Now Keith Andrews I give every player a chance and get behind every Rovers player and while on the pitch I always encorouge but he is simply not good enough and gave the wall away numerous times and Allarydyce was pulling his hair out at times and at one point after a poor pass Sam threw his gum out in disgust. I think Sam is starting to realise he is not good enough for a starting place. I think when we have a midfileders fit we will line up with Hoilett on the right (adventually) at home with Emerton and Dunn/Salgado in midfield and Pederson on the left.

Dunn - Good news was he lasted the 90 mins and looked really good. Bad news saw him after the game and he was visablly limping when walking. I think the injury he has or have build up over the years have caused him to be in discomfort after games. Sam even basiacally said this earlier this week when he said we need to look after him and not have him trainning all the time. I think with Dunn he should train once a week and and if we have 2 games in a week the only training he should do should be non contact that way I think we will get more game out of the lad.

Pascal - Really impressed got forward, took people on linked up well with Morten and was never out of postion but in numerous great tackles and a great block that probably saved us conceading. I think he only gave the ball away once and soon as he did he was running round the pitch like a mad man trying to make up for it and get the ball back. Great debut as good going forward if not better than Warnock and a much better defender. If he keeps this up Warnock will not be missed.

Givet - Does he ever have a bad game? won everything in the air and on the floor in my opinon should be Captain, Robinson is a great character to have as captain but have never liked Keepers as captains.

Robinson - Had nothing to do not one save to make, we were the better side and if we play like that every week we WILL win more than we lose.

Hoilett - Really impressed a real live wire and you always think he is going to do something. I think by xmas he will be first choice.

Kalinic - Impressed Looked strong on the ball, is pretty quick burst pass a player and also used his strength to get in front of him. Got a great first touch. Offered a lot more than Roberts and can be used as a target man which I think he will be. For my money has to start the next game.

We looked far more dangerous was Hoilett and Kalinic came on.

I would say with our first choice 11 available I think we will comftably be in the top half

The future is bright the future is Blue and White

[Ozz]

The Telly highlights on Football first made the game seem more enjoyable to watch than I though it was-My words as I got back to Chorley were-What a crap match!

Unambitious, tame and timid. But I suppose when three of your midfielders are Grella, Andrews and MGP then that's no surprise. And when we finally got the ball in the danger area, there was noone up for us. Not enough desire to win, and too scared of losing. Watched 3 hours of football at Ewood this season and yet to see a goal.

[thenodrog]

Harsh. Andrews had a decent enough game. Pedersen was probably our worst player if you want a scapegoat. No one actually played that badly.

We just didn't create enough in the final third. Strong argument for starting Kalinic and Hoilett next match.

Joey I dunno where you sit but your seat obviously does not face the pitch. MGP was door but Andrews was absolutely bloody awful! I am at a complete loss to know why SA didn't take him off at ht.

I don't really equate wuth SA's decision to play a 4-4-1-1 in order to accomodate Dunny's abilities on the basis that we all suspect that he'll be unlikely to play many consecutive matches. In the 2nd half It was encouraging to see that Kalinic and Junior H made much more sense of it. However the first half was awful and our midfield completely inept, most of which was down to Keith Andrew's stubborn refusal to play wide on the right where he was selected to play. He cluttered up his colleagues in midfield and denied those players any outlet on that side of the pitch. OK EHD was unavailable but goodness only knows why proper players like Bert or Junior did not start the match from that position. I'd wager that even Jacobson would likely have been better with Salgado at FB.

Apart from all that poor Collins must have a banging head this morning with the amount of hopeful balls that we insisted on lumping forward to a muscle bound centre forward whose main intention was not to compete with Collins but to sidle off 10 yards to the right and well out of harms way.

In a nutshell this performance was disappointing after the first two games and in essence exactly like Keith Andrews. Plenty of huff and puff effort but little thought and direction and ultimately not good enough by far for the Premier League.

[Ozz]

And where was El Hadji Diouff ? Car shopping?

[thenodrog]

Do you think Hoilet will be a starter before long? seems like he's impressed everytime!

My mate's (who played a few matches for the reserves many years ago) son has been at the academy for a number of years now and so he's (said mate) has obviously watched plenty of youth team football. He told me yesterday after the match that Hoillet is the best youth player that he has ever seen ....and by quite some distance.

[thenodrog]

What fools were singing "you don't know what you're doing" They should be ashamed as they clearly didn't know what they were taking about.

Some guy in front of me was going mad when he took off Roberts, saying why are we still playing one up front, Hoilett is a striker/forward, so to is Kalanic, what a t*t.

The disappointments of the day was listening to the fans booing, Sam playing a 4-5-1 formation at home for the majority of the game and not putting the ball in the back of the net. To be fair we were the better team, kept a clean sheet, West Ham didn't have a sniff at goal, did Robinson have a save to make? We tightened up at the back, looked solid, especially after losing what some people thought was our "best player". We made a few mistakes, give the ball away but we are improving every game which is a good sign.

Personally RIML I thought we were fortunate to not be behind after 45 mins ...... but by the same token a touch unlucky not to be ahead after 90.

Andrews - Why are people criticising him, one of the best players on the pitch, tracked back, won the ball and pushed forward when noone else would

Good grief, I'm bloody gobsmacked!!

Oh now I get it. Thats a p1ss take rovers1995! Right??

[Flopsy]

only saw the highlights, but I think Theno has it right in that we were lucky to be level at half time, and unlucky not to have won at the end.

I know it's disapointing but a clean sheet is a considerable improvement to the previous two games, yes we need to improve, but it looks like we have considerable scope too.

[dingles staying down 4ever]

The one thing that was apparent from yesterday's game was the severe lack of pace to Rovers football. This only changed when the two subs appeared. When anyone broke they had to wait for hours for anyone to support them. It was clear that plan A was not to concede. Keep the defensive formation.

Arguing about which midfielder should be sacrificed is pointless. Sam could have taken off any of the midfield with the exception of Dunn because all were doing the same job of cancelling out West Ham's midfield. Yesterday he decided he stick with experience. Dunn was trying to do something different but with very limited success.

Roberts was ineffective against two physical defenders. It was only when a bit of pace was introduced that their defence was troubled.

[thenodrog]

Although the result is disappointing, I have no problems with the system. Considering the players who were out injured it seemed the obvious way to go. After playing well in the opening two games and not getting a point I think it was vital that we didn't lose today. A point and a clean sheet are most welcome.

The system needs a much more mobile front man than Roberts to pull the defence out of position. Kalinic and Di Santo running wide and/or off the shoulders of defenedrs would prob make it work much better than the ponderous plodding JR.

[dingles staying down 4ever]

The system needs a much more mobile front man than Roberts to pull the defence out of position. Kalinic and Di Santo running wide and/or off the shoulders of defenedrs would prob make it work much better than the ponderous plodding JR.

More mobility from the entire team. A forward capable of holding the ball up long enough to allow the rest of the forward players to break is essential. Time to get slagged off but the man for the job was Kevin Davies if Rovers are to carry on playing in the formation from yesterday.

[Big Fat Sam]

The system needs a much more mobile front man than Roberts to pull the defence out of position. Kalinic and Di Santo running wide and/or off the shoulders of defenedrs would prob make it work much better than the ponderous plodding JR.

I thought Klanic did quite well at holding the ball up, he used a bit of guile to do it as well.

[thenodrog]

Who plays wide on the right.

Did very well when he came on but imo we should have brought him on and left Roberts and Kalinic up front.

Just to add confusion. I don't think anyone would have described Derbyshire as a winger would they? But thats where he normally played, whereas Ped would be described as a winger rather than a striker....... or do I mean wide midfielder?

In my world (also inhabited happily by the spirit of Shanks and unfortunately by the presence of the old RFW) they should all be attackers when we are in posession and defenders when the other team is in possession. Simples.