[Archived] Rovers V West Ham

[RIML]

We absolutely had the option.

What part of playing a striker as a striker do you not understand?

The gap had to be filled wide right with Hoilett being the only option.

If we absolutely had the option say what you would have done.

He put out the strongest team he could. I'm guessing Kalinic is still not 100% match fit and Hoilett well he's still only 19 and Sam wants 'introduce him to Blackburn's first team gradually, without putting undue pressure on young shoulders'

What more could Sam have done with the team he had to choose from?

[saxo1man30]

sam is now doing what mark hughes did when he first took over at rovers, getting the basics right i.e. get some clean sheets on the board and build from there. hughes during that spell got no critisism whatsoever even though it was easily as defensive and negative as we played yesterday for a WHOLE SEASON under him.

allardyce has his underlying childish haters simply because he was bolton manager during a spell when they constantly were better than us during hughes reign, no other reason. they are the same fans that obsess about where burnley are in the league right now compared to us, so yesterday was a doubly good day for them to stir trouble amounst the natives towards sam, with burnley losing and us not winning, keeping burnley clear of us. if sam goes because of these fans, rovers will end up relegated and it will be on their heads. i don`t think they really care about that though, as long as they have something to scream at every game, it doesn`t matter what league we play in. i think these people were bullied/abused as children or something, they don`t understand positivity. happy scenario`s like singing and supporting the team hurts them.

as for the souness suggestion a few pages back, he turned the chance down before sam took the job and don`t make me laugh anyway. yes, the football was very nice under him, but he was also taking us down from the premier league at the time he walked out don`t forget. not to mention the fact that our main playmaker now(dunn) and him despise each other.

[Miker]

I feel there's way too much negativity thrown towards the West Ham game as well. It was a solid performance and I think we can be very encouraged by our current defensive options, they are considerably better than many teams around us.

West Ham is our bogey team as well and we did well against them, dominating the match for a 3rd time this season (4th if you count Gillingham). As saxoman says... Sam is building a platform for success and I would only start to get worried if we don't win against Wolves in 2 weeks time.

This is largely a transitional season as Sam makes his changes to the team. How many new players have we bought and had to integrate into the team? So far I haven't seen anything largely negative to clamour about.

[allrovertheworld]

I came away from the game very frustrated, like many I think. It was the sort of performance you beg for away to the top four, not at home to a team who created nothing. However on reflection I feel much more positive. Yes the tactis were negative and the game was there for us to win but there were some good solid performances. Givet was a rock, Jacobsen continues to impress, Chimbonda was trying so hard and had some dagerous runs down the flank and dare I say it, Grella had his best game. The players who came on Kalinic and Hoylett look like they could be very good signings. We were guttless in front of goal Pedersen played ok but needs to start trusting his left foot again. Roberts I actually felt sorry for he looked lost up front.

Dunn MOTM?

Sam clearly doesn't know his best 11 and we need to give him plenty of time, however were need a more postive approach to attack or else there are going to me folk falling asleep at ewood this year.

How about The Mac and Kalinic upfront in a 442, that I would like to see.

[JAL]

WHY OH WHY did noone put parker on his arse?

Scot Parker had plenty of the ball but he didnt do anything with it, very disappointed in Parker and i'm sure many West Ham fans will be. There was no need to put him on his arse lookslike his best days are behind him now.

[Wing Wizard Windy Miller]

sam is now doing what mark hughes did when he first took over at rovers, getting the basics right i.e. get some clean sheets on the board and build from there. hughes during that spell got no critisism whatsoever even though it was easily as defensive and negative as we played yesterday for a WHOLE SEASON under him.

It wasn't a whole season and the key difference is that Hughes came out and said next season we will try to play a more attacking game - and he did. Allardyce made no such promise.

The problem is this. Allardyce was the only manager who would have kept us up last season - as such he deserves some time and I would hope that after 10/12 games we see an improvement either in Sams's approach or the players get used to the system and make it much more effective.

If performances like that become the norm this season - especially at home then I think the fans have every right to voice their frustration or simply will not bother to turn up.

One thing is clear at Rovers though, - one player can make a big difference to the standard of football. Under Hughes this was Bellamy and then Bentley. At Bolton Sam had Okocha and Djorkaef (sp) at present we don't have such a player. I think most of us have been waiting for a 'quality' signing, but it's never materialised - whether this is down to Allardyce or the board I don't know.

[Stuart]

The gap had to be filled wide right with Hoilett being the only option.

If we absolutely had the option say what you would have done.

He put out the strongest team he could. I'm guessing Kalinic is still not 100% match fit and Hoilett well he's still only 19 and Sam wants 'introduce him to Blackburn's first team gradually, without putting undue pressure on young shoulders'

What more could Sam have done with the team he had to choose from?

You're quite shrewd, aren't you Rimmel?

I've been reading back over your posts about this and you never actually said that Hoilett didn't come on and play wide right. You simply said that Hoillet could play as a striker because of his club profile position.

What you've failed to grasp though is that everyone has been arguing with you has been talking about the tactics used in continuing with a 4-5-1 formation by bringing on another player in a midfield role. Something which you now seem to accept.

Add to that you were also going on about how Andrews had a great game.

I appreciate you are of the fairer sex, but please stick to one argument at a time so that we non-multi-tasking menfolk can keep up!

[thenodrog]

sam is now doing what mark hughes did when he first took over at rovers, getting the basics right i.e. get some clean sheets on the board and build from there. hughes during that spell got no critisism whatsoever even though it was easily as defensive and negative as we played yesterday for a WHOLE SEASON under him.

allardyce has his underlying childish haters simply because he was bolton manager during a spell when they constantly were better than us during hughes reign, no other reason. they are the same fans that obsess about where burnley are in the league right now compared to us, so yesterday was a doubly good day for them to stir trouble amounst the natives towards sam, with burnley losing and us not winning, keeping burnley clear of us. if sam goes because of these fans, rovers will end up relegated and it will be on their heads. i don`t think they really care about that though, as long as they have something to scream at every game, it doesn`t matter what league we play in. i think these people were bullied/abused as children or something, they don`t understand positivity. happy scenario`s like singing and supporting the team hurts them.

This is the nub of the issue saxo1man30 (and maybe this should really be posted on the Sam Allardyce thread and even the Blackburn End one too). Just like that facebook crap which spawned a chasing pack based on complete irrationality. Some people cannot view Allardyce dispassionately and as a football manager with a managerial record completely suited to our club. Instead they foolishly perceive him as some sort of anti-christ and form a chasing pack. It's all very weird to me but probably a very revealing insight into aspects of human behaviour for any student of psychology.

N.B. This is a bit heavy but also very revealing........ I've referred to this sort of behaviour in the past as tribalism, but I've just discussed this with my daughter who graduated in pschology. She informs me that there are a lot of issues and on going studies connected to observations of football fans as individuals and the frequent descent to irrational collective behaviour as football fans. For anybody who wants to know more the subject is referred to as "deindividualisation" . Where individuals adopt behavioural characteristics of a collective. In fiction we should perhaps refer to William Gouldings 'Lord of the Flies' as an example of deindividualistaion but perhaps the most obvious example in history was the behaviour of Nazi Germany from 1932 to 1945.

Anybody needing to know more about this phenomenon can simply google deindividualisation or social influence for further explanation.

[Hasta]

The gap had to be filled wide right with Hoilett being the only option.

What more could Sam have done with the team he had to choose from?

Emerton was on the bench.

[The Prof.]

I came away from the game very frustrated, like many I think. It was the sort of performance you beg for away to the top four, not at home to a team who created nothing. However on reflection I feel much more positive. Yes the tactis were negative and the game was there for us to win but there were some good solid performances. Givet was a rock, Jacobsen continues to impress, Chimbonda was trying so hard and had some dagerous runs down the flank and dare I say it, Grella had his best game. The players who came on Kalinic and Hoylett look like they could be very good signings. We were guttless in front of goal Pedersen played ok but needs to start trusting his left foot again. Roberts I actually felt sorry for he looked lost up front.

Dunn MOTM?

Sam clearly doesn't know his best 11 and we need to give him plenty of time, however were need a more postive approach to attack or else there are going to me folk falling asleep at ewood this year.

How about The Mac and Kalinic upfront in a 442, that I would like to see.

Buys his neck chains from Jacksons!

[RIML]

Emerton was on the bench.

Would you have preferred to rush Emerton into the team? Sam made the right substitutions, we just failed to score.

[Hasta]

Would you have preferred to rush Emerton into the team? Sam made the right substitutions, we just failed to score.

It wouldn't have been a case of rushing him back. He must be fit enough to be on the bench in the first place. Under what circumstances would Emerton come on the pitch if not when we are playing inept and need a major change? What's the point of having him on the bench if he's not going to come on when needed? You can't carry a player on the bench in the unlikely chance we are 3-0 up to give him an easy 15 mins at the end of the game.

And before you say we had no-one else, Aaron Doran was the best Rovers player on the pitch in the reserve game in mid-week - and he plays right midfield (interestingly the official site classes him as a striker !!)

[joey_big_nose]

And before you say we had no-one else, Aaron Doran was the best Rovers player on the pitch in the reserve game in mid-week - and he plays right midfield (interestingly the official site classes him as a striker !!)

Good point..... hmm. I wish Doran was left footed! In Van Heerden, Hoilett and Doran we have three players who are extremely similar in style - small quick 'inside right' sorts.

We need someone to give us more options on the left.

[accyrover]

Sam is doing precisely what Hughes did when he took over, sort the defence out. If you don't concede you're half way there.

His striking options were limited. Benni hadn't trained all week and is probabaly off to Ajax. Di Santo injured and Kalinic not match fit, Sam only had one option - Roberts.

I was suprised when he took Roberts and N'Zonzi off though. We were winning nothing against Collins and two up front seemed more logical than putting Kalinic up there on his own.

Sam knows what he's doing, and doing well on limited resources. All this negativity will only serve to make him question what he's doing at Rovers. The last thing we want it to be managerless again. It will come together sooner rather than later.

Accyrover

[RIML]

It wouldn't have been a case of rushing him back. He must be fit enough to be on the bench in the first place. Under what circumstances would Emerton come on the pitch if not when we are playing inept and need a major change? What's the point of having him on the bench if he's not going to come on when needed? You can't carry a player on the bench in the unlikely chance we are 3-0 up to give him an easy 15 mins at the end of the game.

And before you say we had no-one else, Aaron Doran was the best Rovers player on the pitch in the reserve game in mid-week - and he plays right midfield (interestingly the official site classes him as a striker !!)

Sam obviously thought Hoilett was the best option for that right wing but that doesn't mean when Roberts went off he couldn't link up with Kalinic which the match report did suggests

'As West Ham retreated further in the last ten minutes, space and chances were at a premium. Sub' Nikola Kalinic did create some space for fellow sub Hoilett, but his bobbled shot across the bows went narrowly wide.'

I'm sure Doran can play like Hoilett wide right and up front as a striker. Don't forget what Dunn said about Hoilett,

‘He's going to be a good player for us. He came on wide right but his best position is probably up front. I'd say he's very similar to Jermain Defoe.’

Which is the probably the case with Doran.

[Hasta]

RIML - I've no issue as to whether Hoilett is a striker or a right midfielder. He can probably do both. He came on wide right on Saturday with the instruction to get forward and support the front man. It did improve the performance but that wasn't difficult because it had been so inept for 60 minutes.

However to say it worked can't be justified as we failed to score which was obviously it's intention.

The bit I take issue with you on is that we had no other options. We had the players available to switch to two out and out strikers which we didn't do. We'll never know if this would have made the difference and got us a goal. However most of us feel it would have made scoring more likely than keeping the lone man up front and just changing the players trying to support him.

[RIML]

You're quite shrewd, aren't you Rimmel?

I've been reading back over your posts about this and you never actually said that Hoilett didn't come on and play wide right. You simply said that Hoillet could play as a striker because of his club profile position.

What you've failed to grasp though is that everyone has been arguing with you has been talking about the tactics used in continuing with a 4-5-1 formation by bringing on another player in a midfield role. Something which you now seem to accept.

Add to that you were also going on about how Andrews had a great game.

I appreciate you are of the fairer sex, but please stick to one argument at a time so that we non-multi-tasking menfolk can keep up!

All I've been trying to do is prove them idiots who started shouting abuse wrong. I don't understand why they thought taking Roberts off was a bad thing, it would have been good to see Roberts, Kalinic and Hoilett all on the field which is what the supporters wanted but if the perfect chance fell to Roberts it's questionable whether he would have taken it and West Ham played a defensive game even if we had five strikers on we might not have scored. I remember saying to the person I sit next to, that I'd rather risk everything if it means coming away with nothing, sounds silly but even if we did go all out in attack and West Ham broke and scored I probably wouldn't have been as disappointed knowing we'd actually tried to win the game but to be honest I was happy with a point. It was so frustrating to watch but they were wrong in shouting abuse. If for example Derbyshire still played for us and he came on as sub the fans would all think he'd come on as a striker to score goals because they all know he's a striker, which is what I thought about Hoilett because I knew his preferred position is a striker but say if Derbyshire came on he filled the wide right position the fans would know he was capable of scoring goals in whatever position he played whether wide or up front. They would still think we had two strikers on the field, the point being I don't think any of the fans who shouted abuse knew were Hoilett could play.

"Add to that" I did not say Andrews had a great game, I simply said "Chimbonda give the ball away twice if I remember rightly, Andrews prob give the ball away twice too but everyone seems to criticise him." I'm not an Andrews lover I just thought he wasn't that bad, I'm not sure who you could say was the worst player on the pitch. I also said "He would be awesome if he cut out his few mistakes and misplaced passes, he isn't a bad player" Which he isn't he just needs a confidence boost, he showed in mid week what talent he has when he crossed the ball for Hoilett to score.

[AggyBlue]

All I've been trying to do is prove them idiots who started shouting abuse wrong.

You can't prove they are wrong.

All you can say is 'IMO they are wrong'

[Stuart]

All I've been trying to do is prove them idiots who started shouting abuse wrong. I don't understand why they thought taking Roberts off was a bad thing, it would have been good to see Roberts, Kalinic and Hoilett all on the field which is what the supporters wanted but if the perfect chance fell to Roberts it's questionable whether he would have taken it and West Ham played a defensive game even if we had five strikers on we might not have scored. I remember saying to the person I sit next to, that I'd rather risk everything if it means coming away with nothing, sounds silly but even if we did go all out in attack and West Ham broke and scored I probably wouldn't have been as disappointed knowing we'd actually tried to win the game but to be honest I was happy with a point. It was so frustrating to watch but they were wrong in shouting abuse. If for example Derbyshire still played for us and he came on as sub the fans would all think he'd come on as a striker to score goals because they all know he's a striker, which is what I thought about Hoilett because I knew his preferred position is a striker but say if Derbyshire came on he filled the wide right position the fans would know he was capable of scoring goals in whatever position he played whether wide or up front. They would still think we had two strikers on the field, the point being I don't think any of the fans who shouted abuse knew were Hoilett could play.

"Add to that" I did not say Andrews had a great game, I simply said "Chimbonda give the ball away twice if I remember rightly, Andrews prob give the ball away twice too but everyone seems to criticise him." I'm not an Andrews lover I just thought he wasn't that bad, I'm not sure who you could say was the worst player on the pitch. I also said "He would be awesome if he cut out his few mistakes and misplaced passes, he isn't a bad player" Which he isn't he just needs a confidence boost, he showed in mid week what talent he has when he crossed the ball for Hoilett to score.

When Hoilett came on it was for N'Zonzi - that in itself was puzzling as N'Zonzi had had a decent game - and at that point we were still playing with one lone striker and, if anything, Dunn was playing as the furthest forward midfield player.

The booing started (IIRC) when Roberts was brought off and replaced with Kalinic, at which point frustrations boiled over because we were still playing the same way. (Btw, I'm not advocating the booing or chanting - just to be clear). The move showed no ambition to beat a poor West Ham side when they were on the ropes.

As far as Andrews, if he cut out his mistakes, he'd be average, not awesome. The only time you'd put Andrews and Awesome in the same footballing sentence would be during a League 2 match.

[RIML]

You can't prove they are wrong.

All you can say is 'IMO they are wrong'

Of course they were wrong whether it's my opinion or not, to say a manager like Sam Allardyce doesn't know what he's doing, is simply wrong. Of course Sam knows what he's doing, he's been in the game for many years. It wasn't long ago they considered him for England manager so it's obvious he does know what his doing which concludes they were wrong.

[ABBEY]

Of course they were wrong whether it's my opinion or not, to say a manager like Sam Allardyce doesn't know what he's doing, is simply wrong. Of course Sam knows what he's doing, he's been in the game for many years. It wasn't long ago they considered him for England manager so it's obvious he does know what his doing which concludes they were wrong.

ask t'geordies.

[AggyBlue]

Of course they were wrong whether it's my opinion or not, to say a manager like Sam Allardyce doesn't know what he's doing, is simply wrong. Of course Sam knows what he's doing, he's been in the game for many years. It wasn't long ago they considered him for England manager so it's obvious he does know what his doing which concludes they were wrong.

I see, everyone is entitled to your opinion

[RIML]

ask t'geordies.

The fans at Ewood were almost right when we sung "you're getting sacked in the morning" when he was Newcastle manager but this time when they sung "you don't know what you're doing" it's just wrong to say that. Especially after everything he did for us last season, like someone has already mentioned he does know what he's doing or he wouldn't have saved us from relegation.

[RIML]

As far as Andrews, if he cut out his mistakes, he'd be average, not awesome. The only time you'd put Andrews and Awesome in the same footballing sentence would be during a League 2 match.

Ok over exaggeration there, saying that if he didn't play for Rovers again would I be bothered? I can't say I would.

[Hasta]

ask t'geordies.

And look where getting shut of him got them !!!!