[Archived] League Cup - Gillingham Away 25/08/09

[joey_big_nose]

Do you think Sam Allardyce hasn't seen Keith play either? Does he close his eyes whenever Keith gets the ball? Was Sam Allardyce even actually at the match last night? Does he put his fingers in his ears and sing loudly when the full time prozone bloke is giving him the lowdown on Keith?

We need answers pronto as clearly something strange is going on!

All fair points. But he is in there because no one else is fit.

If he starts when Emerton, Grella or Dunn reach full fitness I will be suprised. Indeed he could lose his place as soon as West Ham. I can't see him holding those three off.

[Jonnolad]

You only have one basis of your argument: "Big Sam seems to think he's alright".

Maybe he does, but the majority of fans disagree he is a Premier League footballer. I like him, he tries hard and I don't dislike him in anyway, but I disagree with your belief that Andrews is one of our stronger players and should be in the starting 11. Recently, due to injuries, he has had no competition for places, and last season Grella and Dunn were hardly fit. The reason he gets decent ratings is because he is sometimes so anonymous you don't realise him doing anything bad, but you don't see him do much good either. He is a useful squad player, but at 2million, we had to sell him.

I'm not as anti-Andrews as a lot on here, but your repetitive drivel meant I had to post. Sam thinks he is a decent squad player who can adequately fill in when others are injured, whilst knowing he will work his **** off. Question for you: if Dunn, Reid, Grella and all our other midfielders were fit, would you pick Keith?

You clearly haven't read my posts if you think that is my viewpoint or the basis of my argument.

The basis of my argument is not just that big Sam clearly rates him - it's that Giovanni Trappatoni does as well, as does Roy Hodgson. Respected football journalists rate him competently, and importantly not one of them has ever singled him out for critism for being particularly poor or of not being premier league standard - they've singled out some of our other players mind but only our own fans have singled out Keith for being so poor - some journalists even go as far as rating him highly - the Daily Mail for instance last year had him shortlisted as our player of the season. Add onto that the stats that also show him to be a competent performer. That's the basis of my argument - do you have anything apart from "he's crap because I say he is" to counter this argument?

My viewpoint has always been he's a only actually a decent squad player too, certainly if we want to challenge to the level that Hughes took us to. He'd be a decent performer for premier league clubs who are expecting less though. However I rate Allardyce's opinion highly as it will be backed up by serious examination of the games / training etc. If he's good enough for big Sam then he gets my 100% support on the pitch.

Because the big fact of the matter is when you say things like "at 2million we had to sell him" then how do you explain our manager not selling him at that price, or even saying come back with an improved offer (like he has with Warnock), instead he said categorically not for sale and even gave Keith a new contract. How do you explain this?

I'd definitely pick Andrews over Grella incidentally, and it's questionable whether Reid and Dunn's form will ever return to pre-injury levels, let alone if any of them can stay fit.

All fair points. But he is in there because no one else is fit.

If he starts when Emerton, Grella or Dunn reach full fitness I will be suprised. Indeed he could lose his place as soon as West Ham. I can't see him holding those three off.

I personally think you are underestimating Sam's opinion of him. But like you say we'll see in the next few games.

For me Emerton would be my first choice if fit - Dunn is up and down, and Grella has done practically nothing for me so far for us.

[sambo]

You clearly haven't read my posts if you think that is my viewpoint or the basis of my argument.

The basis of my argument is not just that big Sam clearly rates him - it's that Giovanni Trappatoni does as well, as does Roy Hodgson. Respected football journalists rate him competently, and importantly not one of them has ever singled him out for critism for being particularly poor or of not being premier league standard - they've singled out some of our other players mind but only our own fans have singled out Keith for being so poor - some journalists even go as far as rating him highly - the Daily Mail for instance last year had him shortlisted as our player of the season. Add onto that the stats that also show him to be a competent performer. That's the basis of my argument - do you have anything apart from "he's crap because I say he is" to counter this argument?

My viewpoint has always been he's a only decent squad player too, certainly if we want to challenge to the level that Hughes took us to. He'd be a decent performer for premier league clubs who are expecting less though.

The big fact of the matter is when you say things like "at 2million we had to sell him" then how do you explain our manager not selling him at that price, or even saying come back with an improved offer (like he has with Warnock), instead he said categorically not for sale and even gave Keith a new contract. How do you explain this?

I'd definitely pick Andrews over Grella incidentally, and it's questionable whether Reid and Dunn's form will ever return to pre-injury levels, let alone if any of them can stay fit.

Thats the thing, I disagree with Sam for not selling for 2 million. Not everything Sam does is right in my eyes.

I do value Andrews and don't think he's "crap", but its annoying how you only have one argument. Why not just say that you rate him? A lot think he's okay but don't go to such lengths to enforce their views on people.

Maybe Andrews is a really good dressing room figure? Not sure.

But I agree with a lot of your response...

[Jonnolad]

I do value Andrews and don't think he's "crap", but its annoying how you only have one argument.

I clearly don't have one argument though - my post above shows that.

Conversely though, those who say he is diabolical have nothing actually beyond "he's crap because I say he is", but unsurpisingly I don't see you bleating about them.

[den]

I clearly don't have one argument though - my post above shows that.

Yeah you have lots of them.

Not one of them stands up to any scrutiny though. - and when people point that out to you, you simply repeat them.

[Al]

Can I request that posters stop quoting Jonnolad (A thousand identical postings) and Spencey7. Its no use having them on ignore if they are quoted all the time.

[den]

Can I request that posters stop quoting Jonnolad (A thousand identical postings) and Spencey7. Its no use having them on ignore if they are quoted all the time.

Sorry Al, - but how do I know who you're trying to ignore?

I assume you can see this post?

[Al]

Sorry Al, - but how do I know who you're trying to ignore?

I assume you can see this post?

Yes I can Den but I have never had so many on ignore as I have now. Where are we getting them from?

[tcj_jones]

Yeah you have lots of them.

Not one of them stands up to any scrutiny though. - and when people point that out to you, you simply repeat them.

FANTASTIC POST.

This is about where I was sitting, Bennyboy.

[philipl]

Keith is Krap.

End of.

[deryck guyler's spoon]

Keith is Krap.

End of.

That really is terribly poor.

[philipl]

That really is terribly poor.

At least it is not a copy and paste job. I actually had to type that!

[American]

FANTASTIC POST.

This is about where I was sitting, Bennyboy.

We were up and over from your arrow, Trev! Across the aisle and a couple rows down from Bennis.

I was wearing a Samba long-sleeve away shirt (this years).

[tcj_jones]

Haha, opps, my bad! Come to think of it you're right. Ignore me!

[Exiled in Toronto]

Yeah you have lots of them.

Not one of them stands up to any scrutiny though. - and when people point that out to you, you simply repeat them.

Not sure the facts back up your argument there. Everything that has happened since this debate started points the other way:

- picked more often by Sam last season than by Ince

- picked for Ireland

- highest scoring midfielder

- not sold in summer

- given a new 4-year contract

- ever present this season

- captain in last game

These facts would lead any reasonable observer to conclude that its the anti-KA fans' personal opinions that are failing to stand up to scrutiny.

[den]

Not sure the facts back up your argument there. Everything that has happened since this debate started points the other way:

- picked more often by Sam last season than by Ince

- picked for Ireland

- highest scoring midfielder

- not sold in summer

- given a new 4-year contract

- ever present this season

- captain in last game

These facts would lead any reasonable observer to conclude that its the anti-KA fans' personal opinions that are failing to stand up to scrutiny.

OK then, which one of those proves that the fans who went to Gillingham, or watched the Man City game and said he was poor, were wrong?

You see, what's happening here, is that people come on and give their match reports. If there's any criticism of KA's performance, Jonno throws those "facts" at them and tells them they're wrong. None of those facts prove they are wrong. I don't see Jonno coming forward in the match reviews with his own reports on the game and player performances - could that be because he wont put his head on the block by telling us all that KA was good, when pretty well everyone else is saying otherwise?

[Exiled in Toronto]

OK then, which one of those proves that the fans who went to Gillingham, or watched the Man City game and said he was poor, were wrong?

Given the FACTS I quoted, I think the burden of objective proof lies with those who constantly, and seemingly irrespective of the game and Andrews role in it, harp on about how completely and utterly useless he is.

If he had been dropped by Allardyce, dropped by his country, never scored, not had his contract renewed and stripped of his armband, I rather think you would be quoting those to back up your personal opinion of the man

I just think that your claim the pro-Andrews posters have no basis for their argument is ludicrous.

[den]

Given the FACTS I quoted, I think the burden of objective proof lies with those who constantly, and seemingly irrespective of the game and Andrews role in it, harp on about how completely and utterly useless he is.

If he had been dropped by Allardyce, dropped by his country, never scored, not had his contract renewed and stripped of his armband, I rather think you would be quoting those to back up your personal opinion of the man

I just think that your claim the pro-Andrews posters have no basis for their argument is ludicrous.

I've just edited my last post EIT. It might make more sense to see what the pattern is here.

[Tris]

OK then, which one of those proves that the fans who went to Gillingham, or watched the Man City game and said he was poor, were wrong?

You see, what's happening here, is that people come on and give their match reports. If there's any criticism of KA's performance, Jonno throws those "facts" at them and tells them they're wrong. None of those facts prove they are wrong. I don't see Jonno coming forward in the match reviews with his own reports on the game and player performances - could that be because he wont put his head on the block by telling us all that KA was good, when pretty well everyone else is saying otherwise?

I was at the Gillingham game and I thought Andrews did just fine. Chosen as captain, set up a goal, changed position in the side when it was required, did his job in both positions.

The problem with this debate is that people on the MB have become so entrenched regarding their opinions of KA, they therefore only comment on what they want to see from him when he's on the pitch. At the actual grounds, you don't hear any widespread slating of him - just isolated individuals shouting out now and again. Perhaps 90% of our paying + attending fans don't have internet access. Perhaps they can't be bothered to post positives about this player, because it just descends into a bun fight.

The KA thread is really only 4 or 5 people debating, and it's the same suspects wrecking this match thread now - an indication of how bad the MB has got recently and how pointless this debate is in the cold light of day. The manager has refused to sell Andrews, given him a new contract, keeps picking him and has now made him skipper. Perhaps Den and Jonnolad will still be arguing the same points in 4 years time when the new contract expires.

Elsewhere, and back to Priestfield ... I was again impressed with Hoilett having already seen him in preseason for the reserves. Kalinic I would say wait and see, but I hope we see something sooner rather than later. Good to see Dunny back on the scoresheet, please stay fit if you can. Great to be there for Brown's return to his old club, sadly he's not good enough for the top league though, Bunn is our man to replace Robbo.

Good to meet tcjjones. Disagree with the derogatory comments about Gillingham, it's no worse than Blackburn and the locals were civilised and friendly in the Livvy.

[tcj_jones]

Good to meet tcjjones. Disagree with the derogatory comments about Gillingham, it's no worse than Blackburn and the locals were civilised and friendly in the Livvy.

Likewise Tris, and cheers for the drink. Will have to get ya one the next time our paths cross. And I'd agree that locals were perfectly nice, some maybe a little too nice (referring to the classy ladies on the train back to London ).

Obviously we have a differences of opinion on Andrews in general, but I also agree that he was just fine on Tuesday. I thought he was solid, but unspectacular and doesn't really deserve any criticism.

[American Rover12]

anyone find highlights for people not in the UK?

[den]

I was at the Gillingham game and I thought Andrews did just fine. Chosen as captain, set up a goal, changed position in the side when it was required, did his job in both positions.

The problem with this debate is that people on the MB have become so entrenched regarding their opinions of KA, they therefore only comment on what they want to see from him when he's on the pitch. At the actual grounds, you don't hear any widespread slating of him - just isolated individuals shouting out now and again. Perhaps 90% of our paying + attending fans don't have internet access. Perhaps they can't be bothered to post positives about this player, because it just descends into a bun fight.

The KA thread is really only 4 or 5 people debating, and it's the same suspects wrecking this match thread now - an indication of how bad the MB has got recently and how pointless this debate is in the cold light of day. The manager has refused to sell Andrews, given him a new contract, keeps picking him and has now made him skipper. Perhaps Den and Jonnolad will still be arguing the same points in 4 years time when the new contract expires.

That's fine Tris if you think KA is a good Prem player, I don't and many others don't, far more than 4 or 5 people - read other media to see the full picture.

That isn't the point and I'm surprised you can't see it.

This is the Gillingham match thread and some people who went to the game thought he was poor. That passed by until Jonno comes along to tell them they are wrong because Sam picks him, some newspapers give him good marks etc, etc.

The people who don't rate his contribution to the Gills game, have as much right to say so without the same old tripe from Jonno. You obviously don't want these people to say anything negative about him, much as you didn't want any criticism of Ince, although you are quite prepared to dig at Allardyce because you didn't want him here. You can't have it all ways Tris.

Incidentally Tris, you do seem to spend more time having a go at posters these days, rather than contributing to the football side of the site.

[American]

That's fine Tris if you think KA is a good Prem player, I don't and many others don't, far more than 4 or 5 people - read other media to see the full picture.

I love how you bang on about the BFS rates him arguement as being overused, but keep bringing this one up.

[joey_big_nose]

That's fine Tris if you think KA is a good Prem player, I don't and many others don't, far more than 4 or 5 people - read other media to see the full picture.

That isn't the point and I'm surprised you can't see it.

This is the Gillingham match thread and some people who went to the game thought he was poor. That passed by until Jonno comes along to tell them they are wrong because Sam picks him, some newspapers give him good marks etc, etc.

The people who don't rate his contribution to the Gills game, have as much right to say so without the same old tripe from Jonno. You obviously don't want these people to say anything negative about him, much as you didn't want any criticism of Ince, although you are quite prepared to dig at Allardyce because you didn't want him here. You can't have it all ways Tris.

Incidentally Tris, you do seem to spend more time having a go at posters these days, rather than contributing to the football side of the site.

This is plain inaccurate. No one actually said Keith was poor. Just average. I have read back through the thread, his workrate and enthusiasm was applauded. His lack of passing ability noted. But he played okay. Others were worse.

The general opinion apart from you, Jonnolad and a few other is that he does a decent enough basic job, and that he will fall down the pecking order as others become available. This is what will happen, you arguing the toss about it makes absolutely no difference to anything apart from people putting you ignore. I am perilously close!

Why bother continually giving our player a constant kicking when all the points have been aired and we don't actually have anyone fit enough at the moment to take his place so his inclusion is a fait accompli.

This debate can be reopened when there is someone who can feasibly challenge him.

[T4E]

Bennyboy, if you're looking out from the stands onto the pitch, myself, Tugay4England, cn174, Tris, American, PrestonBlue and a few others were on the far left about mid-way up... I was wearing a grey hoody, dark hair - extremely handsome; T4E not so...

No doubt you were miles away and didn't see any of us!

Still playing hard to get I see

For the record I thought Gillingham was OK, Roberts was excellent, Hoilett very exciting, and Andrews is @#/?.