[Archived] Quality Of Life In Britain Is The Best It Has Ever Been

[thenodrog]

If the top earners paid more taxes with that money and the money that went out of the country was controlled better so that a portion of it went back into the country, then there'd be more than enough to pay out the claimants and keep the defecit down.

You are continually making it a them and us issue JAL. Why do you want to suck on someone elses tit all the time? Don't you feel any shame in asking others to carry you and yours all through your life?

[JAL]

You are continually making it a them and us issue JAL. Why do you want to suck on someone elses tit all the time? Don't you feel any shame in asking others to carry you and yours all through your life?

Why !

For me the top end are responsible for this nation being expensive and near non competitive on the world stage.

Is it really right to blame it on benefit claimants? they dont make the Law, set out government policy or even influence industry especially when there are very few jobs out there to begin with.

I simply dont see it as being fair to attack the benefits system alone for our nations debt problems whilst the rich get richer at the expense of us all.

4,130 people applied for 190 jobs in Blackburn, in my book that means there are still just under 4000 still seeking employment in this area FFS.

The dole people arent BLEEDING the country dry Thenodrog, its the top end of our country that is. Just hope you can see my point.

[tashor]

You are continually making it a them and us issue JAL. Why do you want to suck on someone elses tit all the time? Don't you feel any shame in asking others to carry you and yours all through your life?

Why !

For me the top end are responsible for this nation being expensive and near non competitive on the world stage.

Is it really right to blame it on benefit claimants? they dont make the Law, set out government policy or even influence industry especially when there are very few jobs out there to begin with.

I simply dont see it as being fair to attack the benefits system alone for our nations debt problems whilst the rich get richer at the expense of us all.

4,130 people applied for 190 jobs in Blackburn, in my book that means there are still just under 4000 still seeking employment in this area FFS.

The dole people arent BLEEDING the country dry Thenodrog, its the top end of our country that is. Just hope you can see my point.

Scrap ALL benefits.........

Abolish income tax on earnings under £25k..........

Abolish minimum wage...........

Folk no longer priced out of the job market............

Poles no longer come to Britain to undercut our work force...............( tnr V V V V V V V V happy )

The rich basteuweraards no longer have to spend 75% of their income on the likes of R JAL ( how did doing this make them richer FFS...................... )

Problem solved .......................................

[thenodrog]

Why !

For me the top end are responsible for this nation being expensive and near non competitive on the world stage.

Is it really right to blame it on benefit claimants? they dont make the Law, set out government policy or even influence industry especially when there are very few jobs out there to begin with.

I simply dont see it as being fair to attack the benefits system alone for our nations debt problems whilst the rich get richer at the expense of us all.

4,130 people applied for 190 jobs in Blackburn, in my book that means there are still just under 4000 still seeking employment in this area FFS.

The dole people arent BLEEDING the country dry Thenodrog, its the top end of our country that is. Just hope you can see my point.

Migrant workers. (Bit old but)

http://www.personneltoday.com/articles/2008/02/11/44372/number-of-migrant-workers-in-uk-hits-2-million-mark-for-first-time.html

Unemployment figure

http://www.hrmguide.co.uk/jobmarket/unemployment.htm

Now can you see my point JAL?

[jim mk2]

While Britain's public sector workers face the prospect of obscene and unnecessary public service cuts, pay freezes and hundreds of thousands of job losses resulting from vindictive Tory party policies, it has been reported that Tory councillors in Barnet in north London are proposing to award themselves a pay increase of up to 50 per cent. One Tory councillor, Kate Salinger, at least had the decency to abstain in the vote on the pay increase as a "matter of conscience" but she was then stripped of all her committee roles as a result. Councillor Brian Coleman said that Barnet residents would be "delighted" by the rises. Full stories of the sickening hypocrisy of the disgusting Barnet Tories can be found here:

http://www.thisislon...ay-and-perks.do

http://www.bbc.co.uk...london-10635391

Meanwhile, barely 2 months after the election Tory sleaze has reared its ugly head in the shape of Zac Goldsmith, son of wealthy financier James Goldsmith. New Tory MP Goldsmith is worth £200 million so when the odious chancellor Osborne says "we're all in this together" over austerity measures I'm sure little Zac knows exactly what he means.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Politics/Zac-Goldsmiths-Election-Expenses-Electoral-Commission-Considering-Allegations/Article/201007315665894?f=rss

[tashor]

While Britain's public sector workers face the prospect of obscene and unnecessary public service cuts, pay freezes and hundreds of thousands of job losses resulting from vindictive Tory party policies, it has been reported that Tory councillors in Barnet in north London are proposing to award themselves a pay increase of up to 50 per cent. One Tory councillor, Kate Salinger, at least had the decency to abstain in the vote on the pay increase as a "matter of conscience" but she was then stripped of all her committee roles as a result. Councillor Brian Coleman said that Barnet residents would be "delighted" by the rises. Full stories of the sickening hypocrisy of the disgusting Barnet Tories can be found here:

http://www.thisislon...ay-and-perks.do

http://www.bbc.co.uk...london-10635391

Meanwhile, barely 2 months after the election Tory sleaze has reared its ugly head in the shape of Zac Goldsmith, son of wealthy financier James Goldsmith. New Tory MP Goldsmith is worth £200 million so when the odious chancellor Osborne says "we're all in this together" over austerity measures I'm sure little Zac knows exactly what he means.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Politics/Zac-Goldsmiths-Election-Expenses-Electoral-Commission-Considering-Allegations/Article/201007315665894?f=rss

My jim lol.....

You make my heart go giddy-up

You taste as sweet as candy

You're my sugar dandy.

Ooohhhh-oh

My jim lol.....

Never, never leave me

Or you know it would grieve me

My heart told me so.

Oooohhh

I love you

I love you

I love you so

But I don't want you to know

I need you

I need you

I need you so

And I'll ne'er let you go

My jim lol.....

You make my heart go giddy-up

You set the world afire

You are my one desire

Oh my heart told me so!

[tongue roll]

Polka!

Uh-uh-uh-oh

[tongue roll]

Oooooohhhhhhhh

I love you, I love you, I love you so

But I don't want you to know

I need you, I need you, I need you so

And I'll ne'er let you go.

My jim lol.....

You make my heart go giddy-up

You set the world afire

You are my one desire

Oh my heart told me so.

Oh my heart told me so.

My heart, my heart, my heart told me so

Ooooohhhhhh

Giddy-up, giddy-up, giddy-up

Oh

Uh-oh-ah-oh, uh-oh-ah-oh, uh-oh-ah-oh

My jim lol.....

Oh, oh

Uh-oh-ah-oh.....

[Drummer Boy]

Fair? Whats fair about somebody having to pay more than somebody else simply because they worked hard at school and even harder at work when so many others couldn't be arsed?

How many times have people mentioned 'them' or 'they' should pay more tax? The only one to suggest that he'd be prepared to pay more to his credit is you Paul (edit and now Tyrone). The rest of you are basically acting as parasites.

As someone who enjoyed the benefit of a Grammar School and University education - all funded by the taxpayer - and subsequently have been lucky enough to earn more than average, I have no problem paying more tax than the street cleaner. It is fair and reflects my ability to contribute to the society of which I am part. It is not parasitic for those who earn less to pay less - it is equitable. Shame they dumped Grammar Schools really as they were a major channel of social mobility that has been cruelly withdrawn by people, many of whom benefited from their services - the price of ideology over practicality, but that's another thread.

I work hard but no harder than the man who drives my children to school - I just get paid more than him, so should pay more tax.

As for those who can't be arsed - if we hadn't spent the '80s creating a generation of the working class to whom unemployment was the norm we may have more of a work ethic. Having said that, we should get tough with this relatively small number of people who have discovered some disability or feel there is no benefit coming off benefits as these people are as much a part of society as I am and should contribute if at all possible rather than if it suits them. The breakdown of the concept of society during the '80s has been a terrible phenomenon - everybody has rights but no responsibilities - and we are reaping the rewards of the "I'm alright Jack stuff the rest" culture introduced about 25 years ago.

What I do have a problem with is politicians wasting the taxes they collect, for example:

Funding daft schemes and public sector jobs that add no value to the services being provided

Choosing to selectively bale out industries such as banking whilst not providing long-term assistance to more tangible industries such as those in the manufacturing sector - Sheffield Forgemasters being the most recent example, despite their capability being essential to the forthcoming nuclear power programme that will now go to France or the US both of whom have made such long-term support available.

Choosing to bale out badly managed industries when their chickens come home to roost (foot and mouth/BSE in farming, for example)

Choosing not to assist industries that have fallen victim to worldwide trends rather than bad management (machine tooling, shipbuilding, steel & automotive, for example)

Not putting conditions on how I get my tax back from these baled out industries - I find it outrageous that the banking sector is paying out bonuses to individuals when we own them to a significant extent and they do not contribute to the society that baled them out for their negligence/greed and of which they are part to a level that reflects the debt they owe each and every one of us.

Making stupid laws that create tensions between different parts of society that they aim to prevent - we managed to develop a consensus sense of society without such maddening laws over the last 1000 years - what's changed now? Our middle-class politicians are too busy being ashamed of our past and feeling guilty so try to legislate to ease their conscious - that's OK they can afford to and they are so clueless about real life they have no idea what we all feel anyway. Professional politicians - don't you just love 'em? The schoolyard followed by the refectory hall then by an occasional tour of reality - what a fantastic preparation for running the country. No wonder the country didn't give any party a majority mandate - they're all as bad as each other - to the extent that they didn't get the message in May that we don't like or trust any of them and, instead of addressing the message, chose to create a coalition pursuing policies that neither campaigned for in the hope that we wouldn't notic and they could blame the previous lot for everything which is unfair although they did make mistakes and get some bad luck like this lot will.

Making stupid laws that intrude unnecessarily on personal freedom - if we all recognised society then we would be a bit more self-policing in this regard without some self-important and usually pompous state agency telling us what we can and cannot do

Sorry, gone off the point a bit there but I feel better now - this is quite therapeutic isn't it? Should I claim an allowance or benefit or apply for state aid to support this MB as I have a right to self-therapy and don't have to demonstrate any value for it?

[thenodrog]

I work hard but no harder than the man who drives my children to school - I just get paid more than him, so should pay more tax.

You pay more income tax cos you earn more. Proportional income tax is fine but complete 'fairness' would surely ensure just one income tax rate.

You prob pay more VAT cos you spend more. Thats Ok too and it is your choice.

BUT Why should you pay more council tax? Why should you pay more to educate your children through university? etc etc You get no better treatment or services than anybody else, there really is a lot of grossly unfair and discriminatory taxation around.

What I do have a problem with is politicians wasting the taxes they collect, for example:

Funding daft schemes and public sector jobs that add no value to the services being provided

Agree fully

Choosing to bale out badly managed industries when their chickens come home to roost (foot and mouth/BSE in farming, for example)

So cos one bad farmer failed to boil restaurant waste you are happy to see thousands of good ones are bankrupted through disease? That hardly constitutes gross negligence within the industry. Food is quite important for survival DB. If disease went unchecked and the worlds farmers went to the wall the human race would starve and thats that. There are 8 billion mouths to feed rem. Tell you what, how about banning all aids charities and refusing treatment and help to all aids sufferers? They did have a choice rem. The vast majority were negligent too.

Choosing not to assist industries that have fallen victim to worldwide trends rather than bad management (machine tooling, shipbuilding, steel & automotive, for example)

Nice thought but there aren't many fletchers, coopers or blacksmiths around either. Tacklers and Fettlers have disappared. Would you be happy to subsidise them for eternity too? Rem the old truism ... the only constant in life is change.

[LeChuck]

Theno...sometimes your opinions seem like they're lifted from a UKIP manifesto.

What is the reaction on here to the 'Graduate Tax' proposed by Vince Cable? Tuition Fees simply have to be abolished, for me this presents a very real answer to that problem. I also agree with his comments regarding how unfair our current system is - it is massively unfair that, for example, someone going through the system as a primary school teacher will pay the same as someone going into £100k+ a year jobs.

I must admit I can't think of a downside to this system, but obviously there must some.

[Paul]

What is the reaction on here to the 'Graduate Tax' proposed by Vince Cable?

Seems like a sensible solution to me provided the funding goes to the relevant uni, which could prove a great opportunity for creating masses of red tape.

[BuckyRover]

Brain drain.

Why would you accept paying a higher percentage when paying more through income tax anyway? Does this mean the top rate of tax would be above 50% for high earning graduates?

If I had just got a 1st at a top uni and a graduate tax was introduced, I would probably leave the country. A graduate is supposed to earn approx 100k extra over a career, of which 20-30k will be paid in income tax, surely that covers the HE costs.

This is purely to fund degrees that add no value.

To be fair though, I don't really have a solution. The fairest would probably to increase income tax for all. The ones that get paid more, contribute more.

[LeChuck]

To be fair though, I don't really have a solution. The fairest would probably to increase income tax for all. The ones that get paid more, contribute more.

Isn't the Graduate Tax basically what you have just suggested, except it only applies to people who are making good money due to passing through our universities?

Seems perfectly logical me. People who are earning high pay because they've spent more time in the education system should contribute more to it than those earning high pay by starting from the bottom/being entrepreneurial etc.

[berkshireblue]

While Britain's public sector workers face the prospect of obscene and unnecessary public service cuts, pay freezes and hundreds of thousands of job losses resulting from vindictive Tory party policies, it has been reported that Tory councillors in Barnet in north London are proposing to award themselves a pay increase of up to 50 per cent. One Tory councillor, Kate Salinger, at least had the decency to abstain in the vote on the pay increase as a "matter of conscience" but she was then stripped of all her committee roles as a result. Councillor Brian Coleman said that Barnet residents would be "delighted" by the rises. Full stories of the sickening hypocrisy of the disgusting Barnet Tories can be found here:

http://www.thisislon...ay-and-perks.do

http://www.bbc.co.uk...london-10635391

Meanwhile, barely 2 months after the election Tory sleaze has reared its ugly head in the shape of Zac Goldsmith, son of wealthy financier James Goldsmith. New Tory MP Goldsmith is worth £200 million so when the odious chancellor Osborne says "we're all in this together" over austerity measures I'm sure little Zac knows exactly what he means.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Politics/Zac-Goldsmiths-Election-Expenses-Electoral-Commission-Considering-Allegations/Article/201007315665894?f=rss

JIM YOU RE LIKE A LOVER SCORNED - WHEN WILL YOU EVER GET OVER THE FACT LABOUR LOST?

YOU SHOULD BE A TABLOID JOURNALIST WITH THE BILE AND SENSATIONALISM YOU SPOUT

the prospect of obscene and unnecessary public service cuts, pay freezes and hundreds of thousands of job losses resulting from vindictive Tory party policies,

ALL BECAUSE YOUR MATE GORDIE F88KED UP!!!! HE BANKRUPTED THE COUNTRY AND YOUR TORY MATES HAVE TO SORT IT OUT- FACT

THE FRONTLINE WILL BE PROTECTED ITS THE JOB WORTHS AND QUANGO'S PLUS THE BILLIONS SPENT BY COUNCIL'S ON PRIVATE COMPANIES AND CONSULTANCIES THAT WILL GO AND SUFFER

SO ACTUALLY JIM TORY VOTERS WILL BEAR THE BRUNT YOU WILL BE PLEASED TO KNOW

PS WHEN ARE YOU MOVING TO CUBA, OR PERHAPS NORTH KORES MIGHT BE MORE SUITABLE

[BuckyRover]

You could use that argument if those who went to uni earnt the same as those that didn't, but that is not true. On average graduates earn more so pay more tax. You are asking them to contribute even more.

The worst thing about it all is that those making the decisions got everything paid for by the state. I already pay a graduate tax. My student loan. The difference being in that once I have paid it off I don't owe anymore. These people would be on a higher tax band forever.

A quick calculation shows that a graduate on a starting wage of 22k with a 2% pay rise per annum, would pay about 40k extra before retirement, if 2% was added onto income tax. This assumes that the person will not be promoted which is unlikely.

I assume this is a conservative estimate.

The benefit would be that 2% extra on a monthly pay packet is negligible. I'm currently paying £100pm on my student loan contributions.

I think I'm broadly in favour though, even with the negatives I have mentioned. I think it might be the least worst option

[LeChuck]

You could use that argument if those who went to uni earnt the same as those that didn't, but that is not true. On average graduates earn more so pay more tax. You are asking them to contribute even more.

The worst thing about it all is that those making the decisions got everything paid for by the state. I already pay a graduate tax. My student loan. The difference being in that once I have paid it off I don't owe anymore. These people would be on a higher tax band forever.

A quick calculation shows that a graduate on a starting wage of 22k with a 2% pay rise per annum, would pay about 40k extra before retirement, if 2% was added onto income tax. This assumes that the person will not be promoted which is unlikely.

I assume this is a conservative estimate.

The benefit would be that 2% extra on a monthly pay packet is negligible. I'm currently paying £100pm on my student loan contributions.

I think I'm broadly in favour though, even with the negatives I have mentioned. I think it might be the least worst option

It all depends on the figures I guess.

You would hope that graduates in the pay-band you highlighted wouldn't be affected by this as much. It'll be interested to see projected figures for this in the coming weeks.

I think your final sentence summed it up for me too, 'least worst' is good description. If universities are to fund themselves in one way or another (or that is, the students fund it) then there will have to be inbalance between high/low earners and their contributions, otherwise tuition fees will go through the roof.

I do think this system will encourage people from poorer backgrounds though. The idea of being saddled with £10,000-£14,000 debt from fees alone is very daunting for 17/18 year olds. In reality, of course, it might work out cheaper for them to have that debt than it would to pay Graduate Tax over a longer period, but the perceived harshness of immediately having that debt is far worse.

[thenodrog]

Brain drain.

To be fair though, I don't really have a solution. The fairest would probably to increase income tax for all. The ones that get paid more, contribute more.

Wouldn't that also lead to a level of brain drain?

[BiggusLaddus]

Or we could forget this ridiculous idea that 50% need a degree and put some value back into those pieces of paper.

[thenodrog]

Isn't the Graduate Tax basically what you have just suggested, except it only applies to people who are making good money due to passing through our universities?

Seems perfectly logical me. People who are earning high pay because they've spent more time in the education system should contribute more to it than those earning high pay by starting from the bottom/being entrepreneurial etc.

Spare a thought for the kids who start work at 16. They have paid tax for 5-6 years before their more 'educated' counterparts.

I'll throw another of Chairman Drog's thoughts in at this point. It's been recently suggested that people will have to work past 65 and up to 68 before they can draw the state pension. I've no problem with this cos most people now start work much later, however anybody who starts work at 65 and works all their life should be allowed to draw a pension 5 years sooner.

[broadsword]

Or we could forget this ridiculous idea that 50% need a degree and put some value back into those pieces of paper.

Crazy idea!

[LeChuck]

Spare a thought for the kids who start work at 16. They have paid tax for 5-6 years before their more 'educated' counterparts.

I did!

"People who are earning high pay because they've spent more time in the education system should contribute more to it than those earning high pay by starting from the bottom"

You even quoted me on it.

[broadsword]

How about people who never have to use the NHS, do they get exemptions?

It's splitting hairs to go to that level of minutaiae.

What is income tax for? It should be for all public services. It provides a service to the public, which they make use of. In the case of public education, both the indiviual and the governemnt benefit. The individual will go on to earn more, pay more income tax and hopefully help create wealth, which again is taxed. Unless of course they join the gravy train that is the civil service.

Tax tax tax tax tax tax tax. Born free, taxed to death.

[LeChuck]

Well..ideally I do agree with all of that.

But if university must fund itself through student contributions, this tax seems a fairer system than the tuition fees (especially as they would go up by a heck of a lot soon).

I point back to Bucky's 'least worst' comment to sum it up, I don't think it's a great idea in isolation.

[BuckyRover]

Spare a thought for those that start work at 16?

They were considered on the original comment when it was states that they stand to earn on average £100k less than their educated counterparts.

I don't have any problem with less than 50% attending uni. IIRC the coalition have already abandoned it

[philipl]

Where we draw the line between graduate and non-graduate populations is relatively unimportant in relation to installing a 100% life time learning culture in the UK.

I clicked onto a jobs site at random and the first job on the list is this one:

Sony Computer Entertainment Europe is the central support organisation for over 100 countries in Europe, Africa, Middle East and Australasia. We market all hardware in the PlayStation portfolio and are one of the market leaders in the publishing of software (s/w) on PlayStation formats.

We are looking for an Email Marketing Executive to work across our exciting campaigns

At a guess:

- Sony didn't employ anyone in the UK 40 years ago

- Sony did not use email as a marketing tool 10 years ago

- Playstation became a brand ten years ago

- publishing software in Playstation formats as a business stream is less than five years old

- this job is almost certainly brand new

As we increasingly head towards a society in which manufacturing and agriculture achieve record levels of output whilst employing only 10% of the workforce, the nature and content of jobs is going to change faster and faster than ever. Anyone who does not have the skills and aptitude to learn is destined to become just so much landfill material.

[thenodrog]

As we increasingly head towards a society in which manufacturing and agriculture achieve record levels of output whilst employing only 10% of the workforce, the nature and content of jobs is going to change faster and faster than ever. Anyone who does not have the skills and aptitude to learn is destined to become just so much landfill material.

I think the future will see human 'landfill material' become power station fuel.