[Archived] Summer Spending

[waggy]

i read williams piece in the telewag and i was dumbfounded,he says the warnock money covers this years wages and he's the pillock who let's lardarse sign 3 right backs

[LeChuck]

Players and agents are laughing all the way to the bank. It's the biggest financial giveaway in the history of the world.

Just slightly OTT!

Sports men/women are paid equally well in some other sports, especially if you look in America.

What about actors/actresses? They're paid millions to entertain.

I don't agree with the amount footballers are paid, but they're certainly not alone in being paid ridiculous wages.

[OJRovers]

Looks like Jack Walker's wish for the club to stand on its own feet has pretty much been realised. From what JW says we are getting next to no support from the Trust now.

Well done to JW and the Board for achieving this, however frustrating it is to the fans, although how long it can be sustained is questionable.

[Mattyblue]

Just slightly OTT!

Sports men/women are paid equally well in some other sports, especially if you look in America.

What about actors/actresses? They're paid millions to entertain.

I don't agree with the amount footballers are paid, but they're certainly not alone in being paid ridiculous wages.

The issue is, average players receving outrageous wages. The top movie star is box office, he draws in the punters, the film makes a lot of money.

Tiger Woods, Roger Federer, also box office.

Christiano Ronaldo sells shirts, sells out grounds, there is a reason behind his vast salary.

Nowt special Premier League/Championship players on 20/30/40 grand a week with accompanied bonuses agent fees is what is crippiling clubs.

[Hughesy]

Anyone saying we are throwing money away on wages.............

Read this bit - "Prior to 08/09 we had kept a very tight rein on our wage bill, we’ve had to.

In the five years 03/04–07/08 it grew by just 6per cent (CAGR) against a Premier League average close to double that. "

Yes we have some fringe players on big wages, but so does everyone

[Sparky Marky]

Sometimes a club has to go down to regenerate...it was the same for us with Hodgson/Kidd....very similar situation. Maybe going down, getting all the kids in and working together...we'd come up stronger again....

[Hughesy]

Sometimes a club has to go down to regenerate...it was the same for us with Hodgson/Kidd....very similar situation. Maybe going down, getting all the kids in and working together...we'd come up stronger again....

Disagree - Sky money is massive now - we cant afford to miss out.

8-10th place finish + 2 good cup runs will do us very good.

[LeChuck]

Sometimes a club has to go down to regenerate...it was the same for us with Hodgson/Kidd....very similar situation. Maybe going down, getting all the kids in and working together...we'd come up stronger again....

I can't think of a club that has happened to in the past five years. Most teams stay down there or end up as yo-yo clubs. West Ham are an exception but they've hardly benefited financially.

[Blue blood]

Academy & Excellent scouting system are the only way forward........... Simples

Agree with all bar the final word of that. For Rovers, financially, we're stuffed. We can't compete with other premiership teams for transfer fees and the like, so we need to make sure that we are unearthing gems, and developing good youth players who will be at least squad level in ability. It is the only way that we are going to compete, the only way we possibly can compete.

The problem is, this is anything but simples. It requires excellent scouts and youth coaches who are forward thinking and experts at developing the kids (I believe the facilities are already in place.) Whether we can attract the calibre of staff to these roles is the first big issue - and they need to be amongst the best if this policy is to succeed. The other issue which makes it harder, is how greedy the top teams are in terms of hoarding all the good players, from youth level upwards. The Chelsea incident shows us that this makes such a strategy even harder to impliment in the face of their hoarding and financial muscle.

I've seen this strategy before, and without the expert personnel involved it's suicide. Eventually you'll hit a dry patch (which is why I believe you need the youth and scouting as there could be a duff year in the youth development, or few players about one year) and then the team comes unstuck. Unless you have excellent infrastructure, there'll come a time when you can't get replacements of good enough quality, and it can become a backwards slide.

One team I remember it happening to is Coventry and their striker situation. They replaced with and sold Dublin, Huckerby, Whelan, Bellamy and Keane before running out of finding regular goal scorers. They went down and look at them now.

[joey_big_nose]

No, it wasn't a moan. It was a reply to Hughesy, who was saying that we can continue to sell top players and replace them, with continued success.

If you can't follow what's going on, try playing isnooker, or something like that.

As much as I am an excellent snooker player, I don't think I have missed the point being made.

Your point is "It's a sad state of affairs that we have to sell out best players and unsustainable". My point is "that is no different to how 90% of the professional football teams in the League work and how we have been working for some time now". The only change is the pressure to do so from other teams raising their wage budgets ahead of the Premiership TV deal inflation.

We have always sold our best players since 1996. No different now. The thing is about replacing them with as good or better. Souness did pretty well at that, Hughes did excellently, Ince managed to get Robinson in but the rest were poor, now Allardyce is having a shot. We shall see how it works out. Unfortunately he has been hamstrung by this wages issues, which is partly his own creation. He also put alot of eggs in the Kalinic basket.

TO be honest of anyone in the league, apart from hughes, Allardyce is the best qualified to spin these plates I think.

[philipl]

These are just some thoughts:

- Please can that JW article be pinned somewhere within this site. We will undoubtedly need to re-read it before the January window opens!

- The villains of the PL are the people we are all avidly wanting for Rovers: Rich new owners.

- Rovers have maintained the Rovers wage structure at a CAGR of 6% over the past several years but clubs like Portsmouth and West Ham exploded their wages by 100% in a SINGLE SEASON. Sunderland must have increased their wages by at least 25% this season, Man City by 100% over two seasons and even Villa have probably upped their wages by greater than 50% since Deadly Doug sold out.

- In the face of that, it is a prisoner's dilemma, particularly when over time, performance on the field has tracked expenditure on wages and not on transfers in pretty well every league ever studied everywhere.

- Rovers had and have no option but to follow the wages up or else our existing players will not sign new contracts and will all become Bosmans, never mind attracting new players in.

- Older supporters fear Rovers will suffer the fate we suffered in the '60s and that has to be a possibility

- But there are huge differences

- In the 'mid '60s, Rovers were in every respect a third division outfit sitting in the first division with a depleted and in key areas severely ageing team

- In the late noughts, Rovers are in every respect a Premier League outfit from top to bottom in every respect except one

- There seems to be a maximum of £5m a year that the club can extract from its fan base/local community in gate money. All credit to the club for going for 20,000 paying £250 a year rather than 10,000 paying £500 a year but there is an immutable amount that the Rovers fan base will pay to come through the gates.

- That contrasts with gate money of £60m a year that Arsenal or Man U take and £20m+ that all of the other top ten clubs take in through the gates.

- But being a PL club, all other aspects of the Rovers are raking in PL moneys (I said PL not Big 4) and set against all other leagues in the world that gives Rovers a competitive edge in attracting and retaining players

- There is a risk that edge will now be eroded because other Leagues except Germany and France only need to be 60% as rich as the PL to be able to deliver the same take home pay to a player as the PL can- 60%+ of Rovers £44m wages is going to the Government don't forget (ERNI and PAYE). The complete collapse of the SPL as a source of competitive football clubs is a case in point.

- Effectively, Rovers are in a limbo world. So long as we retain Premier League management, we have the resources not only to stay up but to make an Ince-up of an appointment and still stay in the PL. But there is little prospect of us staying in European qualification level on a consistent basis unless we repeatedly appoint genius management on the football side.

- One thought on the ownership side. There has not been one sensible realistic suggestion of a new owner for Blackburn Rovers made on here I have seen since I joined this messageboard.

[CrazyIvan]

That sir is the most insightful comment on the EPL I've read in a long while.

It also strikes me that whilst one club alone cannot hold players to their contracts, collectively they can. Simple solution - no transfer of players in contract until their last year (for the benefit of a transfer fee). Drive the market towards short term contracts that pay lower wages and then reward the signing of longer contracts with higher wages. Once the player has weighed up his options and signed then he's made his bed so he has to get on and lay on it. There's no 'out'.

Drives all the right behaviours on all parties and it has the backing of the law. It returns the contract situation to one that we all have to deal with everyday - a choice between risk versus reward. Right now players can't lose and their agents encourage transfers for the regular kick back, sorry, I meant commission didn't I...

The only issue with this is if a player turns out to be utter bobbins. You're stuck with them for a few years warming the reserves bench...

[The Rover of Finland]

Been away for a while..did we sign that young Brasilian defender?

[j166429]

- There is a risk that edge will now be eroded because other Leagues except Germany and France only need to be 60% as rich as the PL to be able to deliver the same take home pay to a player as the PL can- 60%+ of Rovers £44m wages is going to the Government don't forget (ERNI and PAYE). The complete collapse of the SPL as a source of competitive football clubs is a case in point.

This has a lot to do with the weakened pound against the euro. When the pound strengthens this situation will change.

[CAPT KAYOS]

- The villains of the PL are the people we are all avidly wanting for Rovers: Rich new owners.

avidly - i don't want owners at all if you get my understanding

- Rovers had and have no option but to follow the wages up or else our existing players will not sign new contracts and will all become Bosmans, never mind attracting new players in - The catch 22 I mentioned

- Older supporters fear Rovers will suffer the fate we suffered in the '60s and that has to be a possibility - always will be - this will never change unless we get another Jack Walker and even then it wouldn't be guaranteed

- In the late noughts, Rovers are in every respect a Premier League outfit from top to bottom in every respect except one - still think we are unique in most of our ways compared to others though

- Effectively, Rovers are in a limbo world. So long as we retain Premier League management, we have the resources not only to stay up but to make an Ince-up of an appointment and still stay in the PL. But there is little prospect of us staying in European qualification level on a consistent basis unless we repeatedly appoint genius management on the football side - we have to try whilst we are here though or what's the point on the other hand I am not convinced going down would be the disaster most seem to think -provided we have a stable enough strructure, it could turn out to be the best way forward

One thought on the ownership side. There has not been one sensible realistic suggestion of a new owner for Blackburn Rovers made on here I have seen since I joined this messageboard - again as above - do we really need/want to have one though?

[TimmyJimmy]

The only issue with this is if a player turns out to be utter bobbins. You're stuck with them for a few years warming the reserves bench...

Sure but then you're stuck with them anyway under the present system, who's going to take them if they are that bad? I guess bad/average players always stay at a club and it's the good ones who seek to move on. Fair point though.

I suppose it's a two way bet, we could take the un-tested ones on for low wages and a short term contract and risk losing them if they turn out to be good or risk your bobbins scenario and offer a long term contract. The only safety feature I could think of was to allow transfers in the last year of the contract. Should work OK though when buying established players of known quality.

Might be fun to develop some of those ideas and get a few suggestions together for the EPL on contract management, anyone up for the challenge of saving our footy world from meltdown?

I offer mine for starters (and a commission of course, damn I must be an agent after all)

[Bazzanotsogreat]

Williams article for me provides more questions than answers.

The last accounts showed that we made a profit of 7 million before player trading- to my knowledge we made a minimum of 6 million on trading last summer. So that is 13 million as slush- where has this money disappeared?

We all accept that turnover will have dropped from the 55 million reported in the last accounts, but dropped as low as circa 48 million? As intimated by Williams having to use half the Roque money.

Williams states that we have used 11.5 million of the 29 million raised to repair our fiscal hole. Sam has spent 11 million- where is the rest of the kitty raised

Why are we the only club in the premiership that has a minimal amount of debt that has to sell to stay afloat.

[MCMC1875]

Williams article for me provides more questions than answers.

The last accounts showed that we made a profit of 7 million before player trading- to my knowledge we made a minimum of 6 million on trading last summer. So that is 13 million as slush- where has this money disappeared?

We all accept that turnover will have dropped from the 55 million reported in the last accounts, but dropped as low as circa 48 million? As intimated by Williams having to use half the Roque money.

Williams states that we have used 11.5 million of the 29 million raised to repair our fiscal hole. Sam has spent 11 million- where is the rest of the kitty raised

Why are we the only club in the premiership that has a minimal amount of debt that has to sell to stay afloat.

I would hazard a guess that the answer is working capital....

[Steve Moss]

^ There's more to the Rovers than player wages. I recall reading on this board a month or two back that a few million was needed to repair/improve the grounds, though I concede my memory is like swiss cheese, sometimes.

And we don't really know how much these deals 'net' the Rovers. Some monies go to the players' former clubs, for example.

But there is good news. Dunn, Reid, etc., are getting fit. If they can't stay that way, then they will be off the wage bill come summer. And if Sky revenues increase as projected, then there will be some flexibility for trading in summer windows.

And while I think Pedersen adds something to the team, selling him in the January transfer window, together with some of the others, would eb a good idea, IMO.

[American]

No, it wasn't a moan. It was a reply to Hughesy, who was saying that we can continue to sell top players and replace them, with continued success.

If you can't follow what's going on, try playing isnooker, or something like that.

Meow.

The problems with this philosophy (Hughsey's) are relegation and lack of "trades" instead of transfers. I've seen teams in the US be successful by developing stars and then trading them for multiple younger promising players to re-stock the side. Fortunately, they can take a season or two to rebuild and give the players the experience they need to become stars.

[Steve Moss]

^ Though to be fair, the U.S. has substantial salary caps in addition to MLS being the official employer of all MLS players, not the individual teams. MLS football isn't anywhere near being the free market that is EPL.

[DeadlyDirk]

I'm just glad to see JW come out and be open with us about where the money has gone, a lot of us had a few questions and he's done his best to answer most of them. I'm happy that while we have him at the top he won't steer us far wrong.

I think the numbers add up more or less, and when you see it in black and white I can't say I'm surprised, just shows what a tightrope the premier league is and how more than ever you have to protect the long term stability of the club.

[joey_big_nose]

Been away for a while..did we sign that young Brasilian defender?

Nope. I think he doesn't qualify for a UK work permit so if we did get him he would be loaned out.

Bit of a strange one as he has apparently trialed at Newcastle ages ago before us and was very impressive there as well but never signed on. Must be some sort of complications attached to him.

Meow.

The problems with this philosophy (Hughsey's) are relegation and lack of "trades" instead of transfers. I've seen teams in the US be successful by developing stars and then trading them for multiple younger promising players to re-stock the side. Fortunately, they can take a season or two to rebuild and give the players the experience they need to become stars.

In a way that might not be a bad idea? When we sell insisting on having the pick of the buying sides academy? Could see it working...

[lancashire]

I'd like to know and understand the trusts position too.

the only insight i have comes from reading charles lamberts book on jack walker... where he briefly explains that rovers are 7th in line, of all walkers business' to receive any financial support.

that was my understanding, anyhow.

That's interesting...

I have a hunch on this. I (and I am only guessing here) reckon that if Rovers are relegated the Walker Trust will be obliged to reinvest in the club to get us promoted back to the Premiership and thus want to avoid this at all costs. I think this might be a condition of Jacks Will.

And..

It is obvious that the Walkers cannot compete with the likes of Chelsea or Man City or many of the new football club owners for that matter, and are treading water so to speak till the money dries up in the Premiership. It is bound to happen sooner or later. Maybe when that day arrives we will then start to see proper investment by the Walkers, until then we will just have to get by.

[American]

^ Though to be fair, the U.S. has substantial salary caps in addition to MLS being the official employer of all MLS players, not the individual teams. MLS football isn't anywhere near being the free market that is EPL.

Sorry, was referring to other sports, especially baseball, which doesn't have a cap. The Oakland A's (my team) and Florida Marlins were who I was thinking of.

Florida has twice broken up a championship team and were still able to win or at least compete within a few seasons after.