[Archived] Rovers Defence, Is There One?

[hi-jaq]

Since the begining of this season, I've watched most games and I'm becoming increasingly more concerned about our defence. The fullbacks seem to be coming very, very tight to our centre halves at times allowing acres of space to the opposition in wide areas. As the Chelsea game showed last weekend & also the Burnley game, albeit to a much lesser extent, we have a holding midfield player, but on too many occasions this holding player gets caught out & the space afforded in the middle of the park allows the opposition to run at our back line, who in turn back off & back off allowing the opposition to get close to our goal and get a decent shot away.

We have changed full backs, and I think we might have better ones than last year, Chimbonda looks great, Jacobsen looks tidy enough, Salgado (who once cost 11 million euros) also looks good enough. Our central defence has changed a bit, but I dont think for one minute that Givet is a proper centre half, he's nowhere near commanding enough in the air & at times his challenges lack bite (not saying all the time, just sometimes!!!), I think my point here was proved tonight against Peterbrough, when Nelsen came on & won absoutely everthing, on the floor & in the air & sorted our back line out, Givet is a solid fullback in my eyes, not so much to offer going forward, but I think we need to stop leaking goals & then think about attacking with more purpose. The best partnership in the centre for me, is Samba & Nelsen, at times in the past they have looked unbeatable & apart from Nelsens loss of pace, there is'nt much to stop that becoming the case again.

My preferred back line is as follows,

Chimbonda - Samba - Nelsen - Givet

I reckon we could swap Chimbonda for Jacobsen easily, if he had a loss of form, or if we needed to switch him to the left, but that back line looks solid to me. The only other issue, is why we stand off the opposition so much, but this involves the midfield players as well, we get into formation well when we loose the ball, fair enough, good work, but then we just stand there, don't get tight to the opposition & let them pass the ball through us. I'm no premiership manager, but we used to do that whole closing down & marking tight thing under Hughes & that made us very difficult to beat, we were hard to get through & everyone hated us because the players fought & battled like their lives depended on it. I don't know if it's just me, but we dont seem to do that anymore!!!

I'll leave it up to you guys, if you want to join in & have your say, I'm just concerned for our team & would like to see us defend a little better.

Cheers, Dan!

[Mr. E]

Since the begining of this season, I've watched most games and I'm becoming increasingly more concerned about our defence. The fullbacks seem to be coming very, very tight to our centre halves at times allowing acres of space to the opposition in wide areas. As the Chelsea game showed last weekend & also the Burnley game, albeit to a much lesser extent, we have a holding midfield player, but on too many occasions this holding player gets caught out & the space afforded in the middle of the park allows the opposition to run at our back line, who in turn back off & back off allowing the opposition to get close to our goal and get a decent shot away.

We have changed full backs, and I think we might have better ones than last year, Chimbonda looks great, Jacobsen looks tidy enough, Salgado (who once cost 11 million euros) also looks good enough. Our central defence has changed a bit, but I dont think for one minute that Givet is a proper centre half, he's nowhere near commanding enough in the air & at times his challenges lack bite (not saying all the time, just sometimes!!!), I think my point here was proved tonight against Peterbrough, when Nelsen came on & won absoutely everthing, on the floor & in the air & sorted our back line out, Givet is a solid fullback in my eyes, not so much to offer going forward, but I think we need to stop leaking goals & then think about attacking with more purpose. The best partnership in the centre for me, is Samba & Nelsen, at times in the past they have looked unbeatable & apart from Nelsens loss of pace, there is'nt much to stop that becoming the case again.

My preferred back line is as follows,

Chimbonda - Samba - Nelsen - Givet

I reckon we could swap Chimbonda for Jacobsen easily, if he had a loss of form, or if we needed to switch him to the left, but that back line looks solid to me. The only other issue, is why we stand off the opposition so much, but this involves the midfield players as well, we get into formation well when we loose the ball, fair enough, good work, but then we just stand there, don't get tight to the opposition & let them pass the ball through us. I'm no premiership manager, but we used to do that whole closing down & marking tight thing under Hughes & that made us very difficult to beat, we were hard to get through & everyone hated us because the players fought & battled like their lives depended on it. I don't know if it's just me, but we dont seem to do that anymore!!!

I'll leave it up to you guys, if you want to join in & have your say, I'm just concerned for our team & would like to see us defend a little better.

Cheers, Dan!

I'll have to disagree with that. Nelsen and Samba looked good for a short time 2 seasons ago...since then Nelson has completely lost everything that made him a good player. He just can not cut it in the Premiership anymore...maybe against Peterbrough when such speed isn't asked of him, but we'll get nowhere if he continues to start.

As for the others...Samba is solid, probably our best defender, but isn't immune to mistakes. Givet, Chimbonda and Jacobson do a good job, but when it comes to top class opposition they struggle as well. They're good players but need that "mental toughness' BFS talks about.

[Miker]

I'll have to disagree with that. Nelsen and Samba looked good for a short time 2 seasons ago...since then Nelson has completely lost everything that made him a good player. He just can not cut it in the Premiership anymore...maybe against Peterbrough when such speed isn't asked of him, but we'll get nowhere if he continues to start.

As for the others...Samba is solid, probably our best defender, but isn't immune to mistakes. Givet, Chimbonda and Jacobson do a good job, but when it comes to top class opposition they struggle as well. They're good players but need that "mental toughness' BFS talks about.

I think I agree with you, when you look at our defenders and how they've performed in the past you have to say that you expect us to have one of the better back lines in the league, but in reality it's the complete opposite with us having one of the worst defensive records in the league. I don't think it comes down to lack of ability, but the mental toughness Sam mentioned. One good example is Samba who in general is immense at the back and up front, but he underperforms whenever he loses concentration and lets players get around him or fails to anticipate the ball enough. Most of our defenders have the same problem and it's a huge one. Honestly I'm not sure what's better to have technically able defenders, or mentally able defenders.

[Guest Kamy100]

While the defence has been very poor this season, I personally believe that a lot of our problems (especially away from home) stem from our style of play, we like to get the ball forward as quickly as possible but that results in us giving away possession and being on the back foot for long periods, at home you can get away with it because the opposition generally do not come and attack but away from home it is a different story, this coupled with our central midfield not providing adequate protection to the back four has left our defense exposed.

If sam wants to continue playing on man up front he may mant to consider playing 3 at the back:

Robinson

Givet Samba Nelson

Jacobson Chimbonda

Grella

Nzonzi Emerton/Reid

Dunn

Di Santo

This in theory should make us more compact and harder to break down.

[Lurid Coat]

I remember thinking that Emerton was a revelation at right back a while ago. If he could find back to his good form of a couple of seasons ago, I'd go with:

Emerton - Samba - Givet - Chimbonda

Jacobsen is, however, a decent right back too. And, who knows, maybe Salgado is slowly starting to adjust to English football? Heaven knows we could do with his demigod/Chuck Norris-like appearance at the back.

[JC4LAB]

Just reckon these defenders should be the last line of defence and not the first..Remember Rippers and Wilcox getting as many bookings as anyone else..A defensive midfielder like Sherwood makes for a better captain than a defender poss..

[Majiball]

I'd like to ask if we have been able to field our strongest back four consistently yet this season?

Kamy's point about our style of play is dead right, we still use a lot of longer balls which generally result in us losing posession. Chelsea we had 36% of the ball your never going to win games with that so low. I would like to see some variety in our play (especially set-pieces) but at the end of the day if you don't have the ball your defending and we do a lot of that due to our style.

[den]

Thinking that conceding goals is down to the back four only is misguided hi-jaq.

Take a look at the midfielders first and see how little protection they give the lads at the back.

[hi-jaq]

To be fair I forgot about Emerton, he was quality at right back a couple of years ago. I really dont see Givet as a centre half though, he's a quality player but I think he looks more comfortable at full back.

The observations about our style of play are dead right, but when we are not in possesion, we dont get tight enough, early enough. It's obvious that Sam Allardyce has told his players to stand off and hold position rather than close down & leave gaps everywhere. It seems like a catch 22 situation, but I feel that closing the opposing team down & not giving them time on the ball, especially against teams like Arsenal, Chelsea, Man Utd e.t.c would help us get better results, or in the least more respectable scorelines.

[hi-jaq]

Thinking that conceding goals is down to the back four only is misguided hi-jaq.

Take a look at the midfielders first and see how little protection they give the lads at the back.

To be fair, I did mention that in the post that started the thread, and also in the post above this one, I play football & have managed a team, so I do understand what you're saying and I agree with you we can't blame this soley on the back four, it's how we defend as a team.

[gumboots]

To be fair, I did mention that in the post that started the thread, and also in the post above this one, I play football & have managed a team, so I do understand what you're saying and I agree with you we can't blame this soley on the back four, it's how we defend as a team.

Thing is, if your goalie is told to kick it long every time you've got to have a reasonable certainty that you have someone to hold it up. If you don't then it comes straight back onto your defence. If we had more variety in our play so that we just sometimes played it through our midfield there wouldn't be that much pressure on your defence. then of course if we had a midfield enforcer, or even one like Savage who would just never give the opposition a moment's peace than we'd also put less pressure on the defence. Unfortunately our tactics and lack of a decent midfield able to chase, harry and pressurise the opposition means we will probably continue to concede too many goals especially away from home.

[47er]

Thinking that conceding goals is down to the back four only is misguided hi-jaq.

Take a look at the midfielders first and see how little protection they give the lads at the back.

I couldn't agree more.It was OK in the 1950's/60's to look at the defence as a group and blame them for the number of goals conceded but that era is long gone.Teams now defend as a unit and attack as one.This is somethiong we are currently very bad at. Our back 4 + goaler are as good if not better than most teams in the Premiership but they have little support from the mid-field.All 3 wingers--Hoilet, Pedersen and EHD are lightweight when it comes to defending---they get back and cover but they have no bite.

Central mid-field is as bad. N'Zonzi is the best of them but still learning and wasn't expected to start regularly yet. Grella goes in hard but is clumsy, slow and late and always looking a likely sending off. In any case he is rarely available. Keith Andrews is the worst of the lot. He simply cannot tackle,and since he can't run with the ball and can't pass regularly you have to wonder what the hell he can do. Jogging alongside an opponent or marking space and pointing to others is no substitute for doing your job.

Finally when you're playing with one striker and its Roberts, as it was on Saturday, the ball comes back faster than you've projected it.

The result is that the back 4 are under such pressure that mistakes and goals are inevitable. Against Chelsea, with Pederson and Andrews in midfield we were starting against 1 of the best teams in Europe with 9 men.No team can succeed in those circumstances. Midfield should have been the priority in summer and all Rovers fans know it. Until that can be sorted our best chance is with Emerton partnering N'Zonzi in central midfield, unless of corse Reid comes good. As for the flankers I have no solution at this time although Olssen might be worth a go.

[Parsonblue]

The observations that I would make are:

1. Friedel was a world class goalkeeper who made saves that a lesser 'keeper doesn't make. Robinson is good but he is no Friedel.

2. The back four get very little cover from our midfield at the moment. We don't have anyone who seems happy in the the role that Mokoena played - sitting in front of the back four breaking up play. I assume Grella has been nominated for the role but he is never fit. Mokoena, for all his faults, offered greater protection to the back four than Andrews etc.

3. I think all the players who have featured in the back four this season have strengths and weaknesses. We don't seem to have the complete package in any of them.

My back four would be:

Jacobsen, Samba, Nelsen, Givet.

I would try and incorporate Emerton in the centre of midfield and Chimbonda on the left of midfield, with Grella as the holding player - if we can get him fit.

[den]

I couldn't agree more.It was OK in the 1950's/60's to look at the defence as a group and blame them for the number of goals conceded but that era is long gone.Teams now defend as a unit and attack as one.This is somethiong we are currently very bad at. Our back 4 + goaler are as good if not better than most teams in the Premiership but they have little support from the mid-field.All 3 wingers--Hoilet, Pedersen and EHD are lightweight when it comes to defending---they get back and cover but they have no bite.

Central mid-field is as bad. N'Zonzi is the best of them but still learning and wasn't expected to start regularly yet. Grella goes in hard but is clumsy, slow and late and always looking a likely sending off. In any case he is rarely available. Keith Andrews is the worst of the lot. He simply cannot tackle,and since he can't run with the ball and can't pass regularly you have to wonder what the hell he can do. Jogging alongside an opponent or marking space and pointing to others is no substitute for doing your job.

Finally when you're playing with one striker and its Roberts, as it was on Saturday, the ball comes back faster than you've projected it.

The result is that the back 4 are under such pressure that mistakes and goals are inevitable. Against Chelsea, with Pederson and Andrews in midfield we were starting against 1 of the best teams in Europe with 9 men.No team can succeed in those circumstances. Midfield should have been the priority in summer and all Rovers fans know it. Until that can be sorted our best chance is with Emerton partnering N'Zonzi in central midfield, unless of corse Reid comes good. As for the flankers I have no solution at this time although Olssen might be worth a go.

Agree with every word there 47er. The only thing I might add is that I can't see Olssen ever making a midfielder.

[joey_big_nose]

What I want to know is what has happend to Jacobsen and Givet!? A month ago they looked brilliant, now they both look very average....

[Plastic Head]

We were solid until we stopped playing Mokoena in front of the back four.

That was getting on for 3 years ago now.

We need to get a man in there to protect the defence.

Who, I don't know.

[Amo]

Thinking that conceding goals is down to the back four only is misguided hi-jaq.

Take a look at the midfielders first and see how little protection they give the lads at the back.

Yes indeedy. If we had more steel in the midfield, the defence wouldn't be under the cosh so much. Either Grella needs to shape up or ship out, or we give Salgado a holding midfield slot.

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

Yes indeedy. If we had more steel in the midfield, the defence wouldn't be under the cosh so much. Either Grella needs to shape up or ship out, or we give Salgado a holding midfield slot.

I am amazed that Salgado hasn't been tried in the defensive midfield role. Though he has been beaten for pace at right back - nobody can doubt his quality on the ball.

Personally I think we have looked more solid the few times that Grella has been fully fit. Maybe a fully fit Reid will make a difference.

Regarding the points about style of play - believe me I don't entirely like it - but I think some of the problems stem from players not following instructions. Chelsea would be a good example of players getting caught of position up field. It would seem that Sam's approach, espeially away from home, is to not over extend the team in forward areas. Personally - not convinced - just as I am not convinced by 4-4-1-1 formation. Would prefer to see Dunn playing behind two forwards - wth possibly three defensive midfield players behind him. If Sam is to continue with the long ball style - at least we will have a chance to hold the ball up with two players up front - and more angles of attack. One player up front - with a long ball approach is very predictable. It would appear that some of our best moments this season have been when we have played on the deck - possibly not following orders (who knows)

[mellison24]

I've always been an advocate of finding the formation to suit your players, rather than fitting ur players into your best formation (if you will). Maybe this is how we can accomodate our best players:

------------Robbo------------

-----Samba--Nelsen--Givet----

Chimbonda------------Pedersen

------Emerton----N'Zonzi-----

------------Dunny------------

------DiSanto---McCarthy-----

Robbo (nothing needs saying). All our best CB's are involved. Chimbonda (preferred side) and Pedersen are both good at attacking and tracking back. Emerton and N'Zonzi would be a relatively solid midfield, while the former is willing to run, make space and create. Dunny is in the hole behind our 2 best strikers. Bob's your teapot!

[hi-jaq]

I've always been an advocate of finding the formation to suit your players, rather than fitting ur players into your best formation (if you will). Maybe this is how we can accomodate our best players:

------------Robbo------------

-----Samba--Nelsen--Givet----

Chimbonda------------Pedersen

------Emerton----N'Zonzi-----

------------Dunny------------

------DiSanto---McCarthy-----

Robbo (nothing needs saying). All our best CB's are involved. Chimbonda (preferred side) and Pedersen are both good at attacking and tracking back. Emerton and N'Zonzi would be a relatively solid midfield, while the former is willing to run, make space and create. Dunny is in the hole behind our 2 best strikers. Bob's your teapot!

Nice idea on the formation, I agree with you about round pegs in round holes so to speak. We need a monster in midfield, as someone earlier illuded to a Mokoena style player. He was'nt very good at playing football, but he certainly did a good job at protecting the back line, we miss that kind of presence, he was definately instrumental in keeping us in the Premiership in Hughes' first season.

Any ideas on a player that might fit the bill that we could sign?

[mellison24]

Nice idea on the formation, I agree with you about round pegs in round holes so to speak. We need a monster in midfield, as someone earlier illuded to a Mokoena style player. He was'nt very good at playing football, but he certainly did a good job at protecting the back line, we miss that kind of presence, he was definately instrumental in keeping us in the Premiership in Hughes' first season.

Any ideas on a player that might fit the bill that we could sign?

Don't murder me for this, but there have been worse ideas than Sir Robbie Savage.

[CrazyIvan]

Don't murder me for this, but there have been worse ideas than Sir Robbie Savage.

Yep. I was going to post something to the same effect. We need that midfield runner, the closer/tackler/breaker-up-of-play that Savage was. He isn't now though, his game has changed. He made the comment on the Chris Kamara Sunday Fottie thing the other week that he is required to do something different from that now and he can't run around like he used to.

The point still stands that we need that player. The one that can spot danger and break it up before it happens. Grella actually does a decent job of this but he's just never fit at the moment and I'm not sure he's quick enough. It isn't Andrews game though he tries hard enough.

[thenodrog]

Yep. I was going to post something to the same effect. We need that midfield runner, the closer/tackler/breaker-up-of-play that Savage was. He isn't now though, his game has changed. He made the comment on the Chris Kamara Sunday Fottie thing the other week that he is required to do something different from that now and he can't run around like he used to.

The point still stands that we need that player. The one that can spot danger and break it up before it happens. Grella actually does a decent job of this but he's just never fit at the moment and I'm not sure he's quick enough. It isn't Andrews game though he tries hard enough.

Anybody who can stay goal side of their opposite number preventing the shot and stick with him when he attempts to run forward would be a start. Out defence and midfield should function as one unit and not 2 seperate entities and thats one thing that I did not envisage us doing under SA.

I've seen countless goals this season where the midfield have been left for admiring the play whilst the defence has parted like the Dead sea. Blake's v Burnley being the obvious but also Lampards on sat where a simple pass from Essien past a misguidedly standing off Andrews to Drogba took out our entire defensive left side.

[Blue blood]

While the defence has been very poor this season, I personally believe that a lot of our problems (especially away from home) stem from our style of play, we like to get the ball forward as quickly as possible but that results in us giving away possession and being on the back foot for long periods, at home you can get away with it because the opposition generally do not come and attack but away from home it is a different story, this coupled with our central midfield not providing adequate protection to the back four has left our defense exposed.

Agree this is a key part of the problem. We don't really have the players to be lumping it long.

The other problem I think - and more crucuially as others have pointed out - is that the midfield offers very little protection. Often the back 4 have players running at them with no protection from the midfield. Whilst it's frustrating that they back off all the time, they also need to not leave the strikers free, so are caught somewhat between a rock and a hard place.

The reasons for this lack of protection are:

1) Our midfield lacks pace. Anyone can outpace them, consequently leaving the back 4 vulnerable. Diouf, Peds, N'Zonzi, Grella, Dunn - none of them have any real pace whatsoever, so consequently we get caught flat footed a lot of the time.

2) The centre of the midfield isn't that tough. Andrews offers no protection whatsoever, and N'Zonzi whilst promising isn't there yet, and certainly it's a big ask for him to protect the back 4 on his own. Our midfield lacks a savage or a flitty to effectively disrupt the opposition attacks. This too puts added pressure on the defence.

Overall due to lack of midfield protection and our style it gives the defence very little chance whatsoever. We have quite a few quality defenders - Samba, Nelsen (on his day), Givet, Chimbonda, Jacobsen and the backup isn't shabby. I don't really think there's much of an issue with the defence, other than getting a settled 4/5 playing. Midfield is, and has been for so long, the problem.

[ben_the_beast]

Meh don't worry. I'll do it. In Australia for a year though so will have to wait till next.

The next Robbie Savage. Though I can play a bit too