[Archived] Tactics

[thenodrog]

Don't take one isolated incident and claim United play Hoofball. When it has to go it has to go, trouble is with us at present it always goes. We are as predictable as the sun rising in our play, even our set-pieces are indentical every time. If I was playing against Rovers I'd be laughing all the way home because you know whats coming.

I've said many times there is no bad way of making a good pass whether it be long or short. The secret is in mixing it up. Ultimately if the linesman had been concentrating and our 'offside' goal stood we would have been beaten by a huge hoofball goal. (Add to that the first was a supoerb piece of skill but the pass that was a failed shot by Evra and imo worse skill than any hoofball.)

You say 'with us it (hoofball)always goes'? Really well which goal in our last Premier home match v Burnley was a result of hoofball? We put 5 past Pboro and only 1 of those (Reids pen)was the result of a hopeful punt upfield toward Pederson unless of course you are suggesting that Berts scintillating 35 yard pass to Salgado was hoofball too?

Just another point MU do not have 3 players over 6'4" do they? We all know that Samba is a bloody potent weapon, N'Zonzi and Di Santo too have scored with headers. Nelsen, Ped, Givet all carry a threat in the air so what the hell is wrong with playing to our strengths? We'd be stupid not too. We might not be equal to Man U on the floor but we are at least equal in the air so logic dictates that when we play them we play more in the air. You need to consider that.

[dingles staying down 4ever]

I've said many times there is no bad way of making a good pass whether it be long or short. The secret is in mixing it up. Ultimately if the linesman had been concentrating and our 'offside' goal stood we would have been beaten by a huge hoofball goal. (Add to that the first was a supoerb piece of skill but the pass that was a failed shot by Evra and imo worse skill than any hoofball.)

You say 'with us it (hoofball)always goes'? Really well which goal in our last Premier home match v Burnley was a result of hoofball? We put 5 past Pboro and only 1 of those (Reids pen)was the result of a hopeful punt upfield toward Pederson unless of course you are suggesting that Berts scintillating 35 yard pass to Salgado was hoofball too?

Just another point MU do not have 3 players over 6'4" do they? We all know that Samba is a bloody potent weapon, N'Zonzi and Di Santo too have scored with headers. Nelsen, Ped, Givet all carry a threat in the air so what the hell is wrong with playing to our strengths? We'd be stupid not too. We might not be equal to Man U on the floor but we are at least equal in the air so logic dictates that when we play them we play more in the air. You need to consider that.

The problem is that at times we do play the ball long and aim for either Da Santos or MGP but there are times usually when the ball is at the feet of Nelson when the ball is put into a forward area more in hope of a forward making something out of it. So technically you are both right.

There are times especially away from home that the latter becomes the more usual tactic especially with the midfield so weak. This just gifts the ball to the opponents and invites them to attack through a weak midfield.

[Majiball]

I've said many times there is no bad way of making a good pass whether it be long or short. The secret is in mixing it up. Ultimately if the linesman had been concentrating and our 'offside' goal stood we would have been beaten by a huge hoofball goal. (Add to that the first was a supoerb piece of skill but the pass that was a failed shot by Evra and imo worse skill than any hoofball.)

You say 'with us it (hoofball)always goes'? Really well which goal in our last Premier home match v Burnley was a result of hoofball? We put 5 past Pboro and only 1 of those (Reids pen)was the result of a hopeful punt upfield toward Pederson unless of course you are suggesting that Berts scintillating 35 yard pass to Salgado was hoofball too?

Just another point MU do not have 3 players over 6'4" do they? We all know that Samba is a bloody potent weapon, N'Zonzi and Di Santo too have scored with headers. Nelsen, Ped, Givet all carry a threat in the air so what the hell is wrong with playing to our strengths? We'd be stupid not too. We might not be equal to Man U on the floor but we are at least equal in the air so logic dictates that when we play them we play more in the air. You need to consider that.

Your right we should mix it up, trouble is we tend not too. You need to consider all the games not just those against weaker opposition. The second we meet a team on equeal or higher footing we resort to in the main playing the ball long and its been like this from day one.

For all our ariel threat as you have pointed out, we have hardly had the success you insinuate. Please tell me how many goals we have scored or created from Pedersens throw-ins and then consider how many times we've tried it. I'll wager the success ratio is not even 2-3%, but yet we persist in always doing the same throw in, why? Generally teams seem to have figured out that if they pressure us in possession we will not go back and look to build again but we will launch it forward. Once launched height is just one of the factors to consider, Cannavaro at 5'8 can out leap most 6 footers. Now we have one target up there yes he's good in the air, but he has two centre backs (normally the tallest in any team and good in the air) so whilst you claim we're playing to an advantage I say we're playing into their hands, because 2 to 1 will win 90% of the time regardless of height. We must improve the variance in our style of play because we are predictable. At the end of the day when you have the ball you are in control, however if you always try the same trick against the same player he will learn and your success rate will drop, apply that to our style of play.

At the end of the day the games not called headball its called football and thats what I pay money to see.

[philipl]

Sad to say this thread is far more damning than the shouty threads elsewhere.

The midfield crisis boils down to Emo and Reid not being anywhere near their best, yet (Let's hope) and Andrews and Grella not being fit for purpose. Chuck in a fading Diouf, a mercurial (to be kind) MGP and the not ready Van Heerden and Hoilett and we're in the soup with just Dunn and Nzonzi really doing their stuff. Oh for having Batty and Flitcroft these days and Rovers would easily be top half...

But Majiball really hits the nail on the head- we are just so predictable. And that one has to be parked at Sam's door.

Next door at the dingledome, we have a club with players vastly inferior to even our misfiring bunch but at least Coyle sets them up to look like a Prem outfit. They get good stuffings but they go down fighting and with more imagination and organisation.

We just seem to be stuck in a rut- trying the same failing formula time and again. Just watching the Football League show should convince Sam that MGP is no long throw specialist; there are guys down the divisions that make Delap look limp-wristed the way they hurl the thing in!

In the summer, the squad was unbelievably happy at the way Sam and his staff had set up pre-season training. Why isn't the same flair and imagination being brought to the football pitch each week-end?

[mellison24]

I mentioned on another thread how I felt we should go. We should create a formation to suit our best players, rather than shovelling them into a set formation:

------------------Robinson---------------

--------Samba-----Nelsen------Givet------

Chimbonda----------------------Pedersen

-----------N'Zonzi----Emerton----------

--------------------Dunny---------------

(any 2 of)DiSanto/McCarthy/Kalinic

Easily a top 6 side that!! (imo). That's just ONE formation. My point is to pick your best, fit players and put them into a suitable formation according to their individual strengths and weaknesses!! This also means that any change in personnel will change the formation, therefore making the job of predicting a marking strategy very tricky for oppo managers. BE FLEXIBLE SAM!!!

[American]

I think the Chelsea match showed how stuck Sam is to 4-5-1. Emerton should have been in the Andrews position with Benni up front.

[thenodrog]

Why isn't the same flair and imagination being brought to the football pitch each week-end?

You are in danger of falling for majiballs hype. Think for yourself please philip. I'm not saying that we dont rely on the long ball too much c os maybe we do but in our two most recent home games 2 of the goals against Burnley and most against the Posh were scintillating in their execution. the likes of Rooney and Berbatov, Drogba and Anelka, RVP and Fabregas would have been praised to the rafters if they had scored any of those.

[thenodrog]

Your right we should mix it up, trouble is we tend not too. You need to consider all the games not just those against weaker opposition. The second we meet a team on equeal or higher footing we resort to in the main playing the ball long and its been like this from day one.

My point exactly. AS SA said and which I am getting rather bored with repeating 'common sense dictates that we cannot out play and out pass a team that has cost a quarter of a million pounds. So therefore we have to divert all our efforts into disrupting their style and make them play the type of football that they are uncomfortable with'.

To take on MU and to try and outfootball them at OT is a pipe dream nowadays.

[Paul]

Just another point MU do not have 3 players over 6'4" do they? We all know that Samba is a bloody potent weapon, N'Zonzi and Di Santo too have scored with headers. Nelsen, Ped, Givet all carry a threat in the air so what the hell is wrong with playing to our strengths? We'd be stupid not too. We might not be equal to Man U on the floor but we are at least equal in the air so logic dictates that when we play them we play more in the air. You need to consider that.

For all this aerial threat how often do we:

1. Win the ball from an MGP throw in

2. Score from a corner / free kick

3. Keep the ball once it has been brought under control

Vary rarely in all three cases from my recollection.

[Tris]

My point exactly. AS SA said and which I am getting rather bored with repeating 'common sense dictates that we cannot out play and out pass a team that has cost a quarter of a million pounds. So therefore we have to divert all our efforts into disrupting their style and make them play the type of football that they are uncomfortable with'.

To take on MU and to try and outfootball them at OT is a pipe dream nowadays.

Using plan A 7 times against such teams has resulted in 7 defeats, conceding 25 goals and scoring only 3. It just doesn't work!!

I'd like to see plan B dusted off (if there is one).

[alexanders]

------------------Robinson---------------

--------Samba-----Nelsen------Givet------

Chimbonda (Emerton)----------------------Pedersen (Chimbonda)

-----------N'Zonzi----Emerton (Grella)----------

--------------------Dunny---------------

(any 2 of)DiSanto/McCarthy/Kalinic

I agree with you, but would rather use Plastic Head's line up with Grella in it (if fit) and Emerton on RB.

We will have the stability needed defensively and have two attacking wing backs. This is the way to go!

[Blueandwhitemike]

I'm not sure of the right tactic but as far as I've seen we don't have a player really suited to playing on their own upfront. Roberts can't do it, Kalinic and Benni can't really do it well. Di Santo tries to do it but apart from against weak defences he isn't really that good at it. We beat 2 poor teams in Wloves and Burnley, and did incredibly well as 10 men to beat Villa. Majiball's idea is interesting and might be worth trying. We've got to use the players we have and play a system that will work with them, not shoehorn players into a system that doesn't suit them. We lose possession too easily when we play it long to the one man upfront too often. Can Dunn not play in a midfield 4? If we are to continue 4 4 1 1, we have tovary it more, especially away from home.

[jw_]

I'd like to see plan B dusted off (if there is one).

If there is a plan B I hope it contains the following:

(1) Hound the opposition especially the "big clubs" and don't let them settle on the ball just keep snapping at their heels.

(2)Tackle don't back away as if the opposition are coming at you with knives or guns, tackle, backing off leads back to our own goal and giving them plenty of space and time to score.

(3)Regardless of the opposition status run at them persistently and try to beat them,eventually chances will come they always do,just believe it.

What is there to lose we are already losing in a humiliating and demoralising fashion that's aggravating (to say the least) many fans.It is possible to lose with pride and the fans will love it, but even better the results may start to fall our way,effort has a way of producing results.

[Majiball]

You are in danger of falling for majiballs hype. Think for yourself please philip. I'm not saying that we dont rely on the long ball too much c os maybe we do but in our two most recent home games 2 of the goals against Burnley and most against the Posh were scintillating in their execution. the likes of Rooney and Berbatov, Drogba and Anelka, RVP and Fabregas would have been praised to the rafters if they had scored any of those.

Good to see you've not changed Theno, belittling my opinion as Hype. I had hoped that perhaps people would have moved on from the pettiness that was rife before I left. Also Phillpl started this debate so I'd say out of the three of us involved he is the main one thinking for himself.

My point exactly. AS SA said and which I am getting rather bored with repeating 'common sense dictates that we cannot out play and out pass a team that has cost a quarter of a million pounds. So therefore we have to divert all our efforts into disrupting their style and make them play the type of football that they are uncomfortable with'.

To take on MU and to try and outfootball them at OT is a pipe dream nowadays.

I must say I love the first paragraph where you say maybe we rely on the long ball too much and previously you agreed we need to mix it up a bit more. However 12 minutes later your back to telling us its the only way to play against bigger teams??? So which is it? As I've said I have no issue with long balls when the situation dictates they are required but the longer we persist in pre-dominantly doing it, it will predominantly come back at us.

PS if Rovers can't out play a team that cost less than Samba, then well you know what I will say.

At the end of the day Theno we have a team of Elite footballers, and I'm sure they are capable of playing a 10-20 yard ball to feet or space. So we can actually keep possession and then perhaps trouble teams.

Personally I think its disgraceful that we are targeting games and writing others off, I wonder what the players think as well?

"Right lads its united on Saturday, I've got it down on me magic fixture list that this is a defeat so it doesn't matter"

"What boss, your not bothered if we don't win?"

"thats right lads they are better than us its not worth the bother, we must pick and choose our fights."

So since I've already told all the lads its a no-chance game and I don't believe they are good enough to beat/draw with the likes United under any circumstances. I wonder what will happen? Its never happened in football has it though. the underdog never wins, or do they.

Fans paying out for tickets in vain hope even though we all know that its a right off. If it really is the case perhaps we should target which games to watch? I wonder what Ewood would look like if we decided to right the game off and watch it in the pub?

Don't forget Theno that you adamantly defended your position to criticise Ince, so you cannot now start insulting others for doing the same to Sam.

[alexanders]

We may not have the individual skills, but everyone knows that effort and "in your face" attitude can compensate for that.

[Amo]

We may not have the individual skills, but everyone knows that effort and "in your face" attitude can compensate for that.

That's the issue with our results against the top four. It's not that we're expecting to avoid a battering, but we want to see the team go down fighting. At the amount, it looks like we can't wait to get those games over with. You'll never take anything from the top four with that mentality.

[TimmyJimmy]

I'm really really bored right now so I know I said earlier in this thread that it was a nonsense generalisation to pick formations but what the hell ...

I put this in the Portsmouth thread and it still looks good to me so here it is again, surely worth a punt?

-----------------Robinson------------------

--Chimbonda --- Samba --- Nelson--- Givet--

-----------------Grella--------------------

---------N'Zonzi ------- Emerton-----------

------------------Dunn---------------------

---------Di Santo --- Kalinic--------------

[Exiled in Toronto]

Please tell me how many goals we have scored or created from Pedersens throw-ins and then consider how many times we've tried it. I'll wager the success ratio is not even 2-3%, but yet we persist in always doing the same throw in, why?

I've been thinking about this the last couple of games and, to me, it is fatally flawed for 2 reasons:

Firstly, the throws aren't good enough. They barely reach the front of the 6 yard box having lost all forward momentum. In effect, it is a static ball in a not-very dangerous area.

Secondly, Samba's a huge man, not just tall, and thus inertia is his problem. When he has a run at the ball, force = mass x acceleration which makes him almost impossible to baulk. Conversely, from a standing start, which is for all MGP's throws, his bulk is a negative as he struggles to get his bulk off the ground - it takes more force to get him moving than with leaner defenders, hence is always being pulled up for fouls.

We must have used this ploy 70 times so far this season and it hasn't worked once.

[Claytons Left Boot]

Midfield is the key but because we don't have a very good one it has become the problem.

Ideally, along with many others , I would like us to play a 4-4-2, with a stable back four, a holding midfielder, a playmaking/box to box midfielder, two wide men/wingers and two up top.

A good midfield will protect the back four and it will also provide the tools for the attack to flourish.

I think Sam realises this and because the midfield is so weak/ineffective/injury prone, he plays four bodies in there and pushes Dunny into the hole or just behind a lone front man. Dunny should be the playmaking midfielder alongside Grella, but that can't happen because Grella is always on the treatment table and the jury is still out on him anyway. Andrews, whilst a trier, runs around like a headless chicken and Pedersen is, well, just Pedersen and El Hadj is well, just El Hadj.

Incidentally, I was watching the 2005-2006 season video the other night and couldn't help thinking, why can't Andrews do the Savage role? Savage wasn't very gifted in a skillful sense but excelled in his non stop running and ability to break up our opponents'play. Ok, Andrews would need toughening up a bit but, given his limited abilities, should be able to cope.

I would play :-

Robinson

Chimbonda Samba Nelsen Givet

Emerton Dunn Andrews/Grella Pedersen

Di Santo Kalinic

With regard to what we do in January :-

Defence - leave

Midfield - sell Grella,Pedersen and if need be Andrews. Bring in a holding midfielder and a left sided midfielder.

Attack - Di Santo returns to Chelsea. Replace with other loan signing, otherwise leave. Ideally, I would sell Roberts but given our financial state, I doubt this would happen unless Sam can pull something out of the hat.

The key to virtually everything at the moment is to get the midfield right.

[CAPT KAYOS]

I've been thinking about this the last couple of games and, to me, it is fatally flawed for 2 reasons:

Firstly, the throws aren't good enough. They barely reach the front of the 6 yard box having lost all forward momentum. In effect, it is a static ball in a not-very dangerous area.

Secondly, Samba's a huge man, not just tall, and thus inertia is his problem. When he has a run at the ball, force = mass x acceleration which makes him almost impossible to baulk. Conversely, from a standing start, which is for all MGP's throws, his bulk is a negative as he struggles to get his bulk off the ground - it takes more force to get him moving than with leaner defenders, hence is always being pulled up for fouls.

We must have used this ploy 70 times so far this season and it hasn't worked once.

Along the lines of what I mentioned last season both on Pedersen and Samba , never mind this season

For the size of him , Samba is pretty poor at heading with any direction - add to the fact that nearly every time he goes to challenge a header in the opposition box he sticks his hands out in front of him thus causing a foul.

To be fair he also gets alot of shirt pulling against him but never gets the benefit from the officials due to his size.

But as mentioned why the hell do we continue to do it when it has a success rate of about 1% - and the one occasion we either flick the ball on there is nobody attacking the 2nd ball ( neither do we don't put people on the back post) or give away a freekick courtesy of the big man.

[Boz]

Tactics, formations, systems.

Based upon my thoughts on our current best players/most effective and getting them all onto the pitch.

.......................Robinson......................= best keeper

Chimbonda...Samba....Nelson......Givet = best defenders

.........................Grella........................= best holding midfield

...............Emerton......Nzonzi..............= most mobile midfield players

...............McCarthy.....Dunn................= most gifted attack minded players/most likely to score

........................Di Santo.....................= best striker, i.e. most able to hold ball/mobile/score

It is regrettable that the above does not include wingers and effectively plays a very narrow formation, but I'd be instructing the full backs to push on at home and overlap, with Grella or Emerton/Nzonzi to provide defensive cover.

It is also a formation that bares little if any resemblance to any recognised formation e.g. 4-4-2, 3-5-2, but I'd be looking for the front three to provide creation/goals, the back four to be solid, with extra protection from a proper holding midfield player (Grella would seem to be only one on our books), with the two other midfield players to provide the legs to get around the pitch.

With a subs bench to provide cover from; Brown, Salgado, Reid, Pedersen, Diouf, Roberts, Kalinic.

Plus other similar players available who can do a job; Roberts, Jacobsen, Olssen, Jones, Andrews, Hoilett.

But that is the crux of our dilemma in my opinion, lots of mediocre players who can fulfil a role, but few who can make a significant impact. But those that can, let’s get them playing together.

Just an idea and never likely to happen, but good fun.

[roversmum]

We have alays been prone to leave the back post uncovered. Most annoying, especially as a number of goals have popped in there

[Claytons Left Boot]

Midfield is the key but because we don't have a very good one it has become the problem.

A good midfield will protect the back four and it will also provide the tools for the attack to flourish.

I think Sam realises this and because the midfield is so weak/ineffective/injury prone, he plays four bodies in there and pushes Dunny into the hole or just behind a lone front man. Dunny should be the playmaking midfielder alongside Grella, but that can't happen because Grella is always on the treatment table and the jury is still out on him anyway. Andrews, whilst a trier, runs around like a headless chicken and Pedersen is, well, just Pedersen and El Hadj is well, just El Hadj.

With regard to what we do in January :-

Defence - leave

Midfield - sell Grella,Pedersen and if need be Andrews. Bring in a holding midfielder and a left sided midfielder.

Attack - Di Santo returns to Chelsea. Replace with other loan signing, otherwise leave.

The key to virtually everything at the moment is to get the midfield right.

There you go then..........

[ABBEY]

how many goals would derbs scored in dunns slot? could have been perfect .

[JAL]

What do the stats say about 4-5-1, to me they say we concede at least one more goal per game than we can score.

Is it working ?

Not to me Sam.