[Archived] Sam Out...?

[OscarRaven]

October:

Chelsea, Man Utd & Arsenal away plus dingles at home. Everyone expected and demanded one win in October and got it.

Normal service from now on and a realistic prospect of putting that awful away record to bed.

My personal conflict is the disapointment of playing too defensivley, yet shipping more than 3 goals a game.

Sam is average at best and doesn't have the skill to beat the best (we never really found Bolton or even his Newcastle tough), his selective stats based football misses the single most basic point of football;

They can't score if the don't have the ball! Stop punting it long and effectivley giving them 90 mins to attack.

If Sam can't grasp this then we do need to keep an eye on the manager market, but we can neither afford to or should dispense with his services until his contract expires.

He will keep us in the league no question, but it's a souless football substitute that we are watching.

I also agree with the football selling its soul in general, sad fact is if we want football then we have to risk going down and BUST! Play anti-football, win your home games, stay up and keep our 134 year old club going. Sam can do that.

[imy9]

Exiled- you make the point that Rovers have lost ten games on the bounce (failing to mention that we have faced SEVEN of those TEN games against top 5 opposition) but you mention that Rovers have an excellent home record- but this is down to luck and the fact that we have not faced any top 4 sides at home!! Talk about manipulation of facts!

What about the penalty decision we did not get vs Arsenal at 3-2 down? A dodgy decision vs Man Utd last season when we were 1-1? A perfectly good goal vs Man Utd this season- there are others but this will even itself out at the end of the season.

It is stupidity IMO to compare the first ten games this season with Inces first ten games as we didnt face the same opposition did we?, a better test will be after 17 games- even this is flawed as we have faced the three toughest games we will face this season already.

[cn174]

Exiled- you make the point that Rovers have lost ten games on the bounce (failing to mention that we have faced SEVEN of those TEN games against top 5 opposition) but you mention that Rovers have an excellent home record- but this is down to luck and the fact that we have not faced any top 4 sides at home!! Talk about manipulation of facts!

What about the penalty decision we did not get vs Arsenal at 3-2 down? A dodgy decision vs Man Utd last season when we were 1-1? A perfectly good goal vs Man Utd this season- there are others but this will even itself out at the end of the season.

It is stupidity IMO to compare the first ten games this season with Inces first ten games as we didnt face the same opposition did we?, a better test will be after 17 games- even this is flawed as we have faced the three toughest games we will face this season already.

Why 17?

[Mr Maureen]

Sam will keep us in the premier league. That's enough isn't it?

What else do you want?

No it is not enough.I'm bored stiff with Blackburn Rovers.

I want to see us putting in top performances against the big boys instead of the now inevitable capitulations.

It may be enough for the die hards to sit back and accept another relegation battle but for me its not enough.

I said at the time that Allardyce was wrong and sadly the only way to get rid would be if we are relegated.

After the interesting appointments of Souness and Hughes as managers the appointment of Allardyce was as dull as dishwater.

Imagine if he keeps us up by the skin of our teeth for the next ten years. GREAT.Then eventually retires only for his @#/? son to step into his shoes.

Been a supporter for 40 years but I'm off for a while.

[philipl]

Dull as dishwater?

There have been 27 goals in Rovers last 5 games. I'd think quite a few old timers would peg out of heart attacks and youngsters need their mobiles to keep count if matches had sufficient goals to get you excited.

It is the lack of competitiveness that is the pain in the bum. And to be quite honest in those five games there have been two howlingly bad reffing decisions both of which went against us. If we'd gone 3-3 at the Emirates, if Kalinic's strike at OT had stood, would this thread have been opened?

[broadsword]

Yes

[patrickvalery]

Sam will keep us in the premier league. That's enough isn't it?

What else do you want?

Firstly, some fantastic posts on here. Paul, Theno, Eddie and Nicko's efforts in particular.

Secondly, the point above. This just sums up everything i feel and disliske about supporting a premier league team outside the top bracket. This is the single most depressing notion i have had to come to terms with. Basically Sam will have a job here for as long as he wants it, as long as we finish outside the bottom 3.

Let me take the chance to state i'm not AT ALL anti Allardyce. I firmly believe there are few others who could do a better job in our current situation. But it has got to the stage where i find it increasingly hard to find any enthusiasm on Saturdays. It now seems any romance, hope, magic, call it what you will has completely disappeared. We are now expected to be happy if we finish the season in the top flight. I'm afraid this is not the game i fell in love with.

[PAFELL]

Firstly, some fantastic posts on here. Paul, Theno, Eddie and Nicko's efforts in particular.

Secondly, the point above. This just sums up everything i feel and disliske about supporting a premier league team outside the top bracket. This is the single most depressing notion i have had to come to terms with. Basically Sam will have a job here for as long as he wants it, as long as we finish outside the bottom 3.

Let me take the chance to state i'm not AT ALL anti Allardyce. I firmly believe there are few others who could do a better job in our current situation. But it has got to the stage where i find it increasingly hard to find any enthusiasm on Saturdays. It now seems any romance, hope, magic, call it what you will has completely disappeared. We are now expected to be happy if we finish the season in the top flight. I'm afraid this is not the game i fell in love with.

In every game there has to a defensive base - which rovers have not had. Once that is done and maintained and practiced then a team can build. I believe that is what Sam is doing now. I agree with those on here who say it is painful and depressing to watch. But lets remember we have a relatively new back 4. Givet and Chimbonda have only played a few games together, then there is Salgado / Jacobsen who does Sam play? Givet and Samba in the centre then combine them all together. So this is a new defence in many ways. Look at the test they have had Man City / Villa / Arsenal / Chelsea / Man U these would be hard games for an experienced back 4. Then there has been internation breaks / swine flu, injuries. Patience is the key in my view the team has to learn to defend as a whole team to become a solid unit. I do not believe this is the time to make judgements and instead give Sam the time to build this team. Though the next few games should see Rovers playing better and getting better results.

[Tris]

The title of this thread is slightly disingenuous. As one of those who doesn't like what Allardyce is doing here, that doesn't mean I would advocate sacking the guy at this stage. For a start Rovers can ill afford to pay him off, and secondly he proved last season he can rescue a lost cause. He may well have to do so again, but this time the entire saga will have been of his own making. That wasn't the brief for 2009-10 though, so people are entitled to be upset.

There are a few people on this MB who seem to think that those of us who dare to post opinions questioning Allardyce are somehow inferior thinkers, or not proper fans, or want him gone (hello 47er, when are you going to post anything remotely worthwhile?)

I would like to see Allardyce make better use of what he has, both in terms of team selection and match tactics. I look at teams like Birmingham, West Ham and even Stoke, and I don't see them go into games negatively like we do. I think all three have inferior squads - our squad is stuffed full of experience in this league, and a certain amount of flair and youth - but none of this is being used positively by the manager.

Much of the $$$ value in our squad is in BFS's own signings who aren't yet playing anything close to a full role. This isn't going to help him in the next transfer window - why would the owners open the purse strings for Allardyce in January when the most expensive (Kalinic) and highest paid (Salgado) purchases from the summer still can't get in the side???

For me, the manager doesn't have to be changed - the one we are paying has to improve. He has to improve the tactics, he has to make best use of the players we have, and he has to stop blaming everything and everyone else for his mistakes. He also has to prove the worth of the players he made Rovers pay top dollar for. If he does so, it might just improve the results.

For all the gnashing of teeth about the tough run of away fixtures we have just played, this is the league we're in. We have actually played 10 games, not 3, and the record reads Played 10, Points 10, GD -13. That's just not good enough a quarter of the way through the season. We have played 7 other teams outwith Man U, Chelsea and Arsenal and failed to bag the goals and therefore the points we need.

To rectify it, Allardyce must find a formula to take all 12 points from the next 12 available, against Portsmouth, Bolton, Fulham and Stoke. It's a new month full of winnable games, we must take full advantage and then go into the Christmas period in a better place and with a happier outlook.

[Steve Moss]

I think the start of the season has been depressing for a variety of reasons, a tough schedule and managerial errors included. But come December there is every prospect that Sam will have the club in a very good position on the league table. We'll do well and there will be more than a few clubs that would love to change positions. So let's stay calm and be grateful for what we have. Give Sam some time and we'll be mid-table and looking to build on that next year.

[Gamst]

We have pretty much had the results that I would have expected so far this season, so Sam is doing ok. Granted, we may not play like Brazil, but we are limited by funds and skill. We have been pretty dire in the games we have lost and won the games we needed to win. This is trademark Sam and its why I feel he will keep us in the Premierleague. He wins the matches against our rivals and they are the games that count. To be outside the bottom three at the start of November having played away at 3 of the top four is creditable really. The next few matches are more important, as we need to maintain our confidence levels in spite of the heavy defeats of late and our lowly position.

[Miker]

The title of this thread is slightly disingenuous. As one of those who doesn't like what Allardyce is doing here, that doesn't mean I would advocate sacking the guy at this stage. For a start Rovers can ill afford to pay him off, and secondly he proved last season he can rescue a lost cause. He may well have to do so again, but this time the entire saga will have been of his own making. That wasn't the brief for 2009-10 though, so people are entitled to be upset.

There are a few people on this MB who seem to think that those of us who dare to post opinions questioning Allardyce are somehow inferior thinkers, or not proper fans, or want him gone (hello 47er, when are you going to post anything remotely worthwhile?)

I would like to see Allardyce make better use of what he has, both in terms of team selection and match tactics. I look at teams like Birmingham, West Ham and even Stoke, and I don't see them go into games negatively like we do. I think all three have inferior squads - our squad is stuffed full of experience in this league, and a certain amount of flair and youth - but none of this is being used positively by the manager.

Much of the $$$ value in our squad is in BFS's own signings who aren't yet playing anything close to a full role. This isn't going to help him in the next transfer window - why would the owners open the purse strings for Allardyce in January when the most expensive (Kalinic) and highest paid (Salgado) purchases from the summer still can't get in the side???

For me, the manager doesn't have to be changed - the one we are paying has to improve. He has to improve the tactics, he has to make best use of the players we have, and he has to stop blaming everything and everyone else for his mistakes. He also has to prove the worth of the players he made Rovers pay top dollar for. If he does so, it might just improve the results.

For all the gnashing of teeth about the tough run of away fixtures we have just played, this is the league we're in. We have actually played 10 games, not 3, and the record reads Played 10, Points 10, GD -13. That's just not good enough a quarter of the way through the season. We have played 7 other teams outwith Man U, Chelsea and Arsenal and failed to bag the goals and therefore the points we need.

To rectify it, Allardyce must find a formula to take all 12 points from the next 12 available, against Portsmouth, Bolton, Fulham and Stoke. It's a new month full of winnable games, we must take full advantage and then go into the Christmas period in a better place and with a happier outlook.

Sam should be judged by the next 4 games coming up. Portsmouth will be his first test. They are in much better form than earlier in the season and with much better morale. Sam has to show we're above teams like Portsmouth though, and hopefully we can do that with a 2 goal difference.

For the record, completely disagree that Sam is aiming to just fight off relegation and I completely disagree that that's all we should expect. Our team should be pushing for a mid-table position right now. It's the only way we can make enough money to be more stable next season.

[jw_]

I've just watched a championship game on tv purely because it was the only game on at the time (repeat)between Cardiff and Notts County and thoroughly enjoyed it just becuase of the way they played the game.Both teams played good attacking passing football both desperately trying to score goals and really that's what it's all about.Nether of these teams had the flair and talent of the "big" Premier league clubs (although they both had some decent players) but they had loads of energy and ambition and gave their all.The diference between them and Rovers was clearly evident,they wanted to win and were obviously being managed to win games,(thereby hoping for promotion)and thats where I come to my point,Allardyce is playing just to stay in the PL and the tactics he's enforcing are producing the biggest pile of #### I've ever seen.

I can only repeat what others have said, I can stand the losing but not the way we are losing,it's absolutely driving me nuts and I've been watching the game for many many years.We are so predictable that other teams know how to play aginst us before we take to the field.Pederson always throws a long ball, every defender just hoofs the ball forward in the hopes that someone may get on the end of it,Robinson does the same ,Nzonzi always heads backwards even when theres no one behind him (ok he got lucky at Arsenal)and no one seems capable of mounting an attack other than Dunn (god bless him).All this is stemming from the manager, surely he can insert some variety into his game plan (whatever that is).

It just appears that he has no confidence in his players and they have picked up on his negative tactics which is evident by their lack of attacking play.He is obviously trying not to lose games but not succeeding, however he is losing the fans as well with this insipid type of play so maybe he should realise that the best method of defence is attack.

Just my thoughts

[Iceman]

Its got more to do with style of play, tactics and formation, that is upsetting the fans. Ive been in Andrews corner from the start, because i felt he was treated harshly. However, Sam has now got it completely wrong by failing to see that Andrews is not up to standard. Its time Sam gets his team lineup right, because imo he has messed it up and its become frustrating and horrible to watch.

[TimmyJimmy]

Jisty - you are a mischief maker but I like you in a footballing way of course.

The thread title is horrible but having read the last 5 pages it's really working out to be a half decent thread. Good posts from most of the top posters all with interesting things to say. May be the law of unintended consequences but hey ho.

Taking the thread title at face value I'd say Sam is the best for us at the moment but like the players he needs to up his game especially in how he selects and sets out the team. Should he be struck down for some reason then I'd want Coyle. Yes I said it ....

On the wider points raised, Nicko, I think you're spot on with your observations, Paul I think you're also right about the state of football in general. Sometimes I wish it would just collapse in a heap and we could start again, but it won't so we'd better get used to it. Best we can hope for is that soon the top ie 'rich' teams will break away because they need to keep generating cash and they won't find that in the EPL. The remainder will be thinned out because the EPL changes will send them into receivership (the TV money will follow the big teams) and maybe we can get back to have fun on the terraces.

jw_

It just appears that he has no confidence in his players and they have picked up on his negative tactics which is evident by their lack of attacking play.He is obviously trying not to lose games but not succeeding.

I think this bit is right, he has no confidence in them, he sees what we see, we have no cash to change them so he sets them out for damage limitation. Horrible, horrible, horrible, but I'd do the same - except I'd dick around with the formation a few times before totally giving up like he has. I've just posted on the Rovers/ManU thread that I think we should try lining up without wingers but I won't repeat myself here.

Nice to read most of the posters backing Sam, it's a tough ask right now, but he deserves the backing I think - even if some think he is only the least worse choice.

[Hughesy]

He may well have to do so again, but this time the entire saga will have been of his own making. That wasn't the brief for 2009-10 though, so people are entitled to be upset.

For me, the manager doesn't have to be changed - and he has to stop blaming everything and everyone else for his mistakes.

We have actually played 10 games, not 3, and the record reads Played 10, Points 10, GD -13. That's just not good enough a quarter of the way through the season. We have played 7 other teams outwith Man U, Chelsea and Arsenal and failed to bag the goals and therefore the points we need.

To rectify it, Allardyce must find a formula to take all 12 points from the next 12 available, against Portsmouth, Bolton, Fulham and Stoke. It's a new month full of winnable games, we must take full advantage and then go into the Christmas period in a better place and with a happier outlook.

A right to be upset? The brief was to finish 13th, should we win our game in hand......that is where we would be

First of all take out the Manc, Chelsea & Arsenal game - as the goal difference reads as 0. So not as bad as it looks when playing 'other' teams. We no doubt had a bad result against Everton (we were awful) and we should of also picked up a point at least from Sunderland away.

Apart from that we have beat Villa, Burnley & Wolves and picked up a point against our bogey team (West Ham).

As you say the next group of games are crucial to us and will shape our season. Over the next 7 games - we only realistically have Liverpool who we should be concerned about... all the rest we should be capable of beating. Lets re-assess the situation in 4 games time, when im sure we will be in a much healthier position. At the beginning of the season I would of probably put us on about 2 points more than we currently hold, so its not the end of the world.

I do agree that some things need improvement, like certain individuals performances, however I also think the players have to take some blame... Sam was clearly screaming at his team on saturday to push up and not play so deep but it wasnt really going into the players heads!

[nicko]

Nicko - out of interest do you have any idea who Hull city could be going for if they sack their manager. Do you think they would conside big Sam?

I don't think that could happen from any angle. Hull could not afford the compo and I don't see it appealing to Sam.

[Paul]

I've just watched a championship game on tv purely because it was the only game on at the time (repeat)between Cardiff and Notts County and thoroughly enjoyed it just becuase of the way they played the game.Both teams played good attacking passing football both desperately trying to score goals and really that's what it's all about.

I saw the first half and you're quite right. It was a good game, and far better value than the £86 I shelled out for two tickets on Saturday

[Stuart]

Jisty - you are a mischief maker but I like you in a footballing way of course.

Thanks mate, you're not so bad yourself!

The thread title is horrible but having read the last 5 pages it's really working out to be a half decent thread. Good posts from most of the top posters all with interesting things to say. May be the law of unintended consequences but hey ho.

I agree. On both counts. The question mark after 'Sam Out...' was kind of a hint but clearly too subtle.

Some of the comments I was reading in other threads (following both Chelsea and Man U games) prompted me to actually challenge people to put up or shut up. As you say, in most cases people have come up with Sam as the common denomintor to the 'Who in...?' question.

It's a shame my rep had to take such a battering to make my point but as you say, hey ho.

[waggy]

i watched cardiff v forest yesterday and saw a bloody good game,forest played some brilliant stufff,and cardiff were'nt bad either,both there managers play footie the right way.dam site better football than we see under lardarse,a lad in the pub made me laugh on sat,when robbo was blasting the ball into utd's penalty area,he remarked he was our new PLAYMAKER

[jonv]

west brom looked like Brazil 2 seasons ago ya bell end.

[waggy]

west brom looked like Brazil 2 seasons ago ya bell end.

WEST BROM WERE NOT PLAYING YOU BELL END

[ABBEY]

ding dong

[Steve Moss]

I do agree that some things need improvement, like certain individuals performances, however I also think the players have to take some blame... Sam was clearly screaming at his team on saturday to push up and not play so deep but it wasnt really going into the players heads!

I noticed this too, during the first half. I think that Sam's instructions are not as simplistic as some would like to make out. He's certainly not all defense, though it is his focus. One or two changes and I suspect that we'll see a dramatically improved Rovers.

[Eddie]

If that is the case then I find that more worrying. A manager who can't control his team is worse than one giving them the wrong instructions.