[Archived] Sam's January Targets

[broadsword]

Has Lars Jacobsen been consistently good?

Robinson being outstanding really is a matter of opinion. I certainly don't think we got value for money there.

[Tom]

I'd say Lars has been consistently good yes, more than most for sure.

[mellison24]

Has Lars Jacobsen been consistently good?

Robinson being outstanding really is a matter of opinion. I certainly don't think we got value for money there.

1.5 million for Robbo....no, not value for money on a 29 year old england keeper yet to reach his peak.

[broadsword]

1.5 million for Robbo....no, not value for money on a 29 year old england keeper yet to reach his peak.

I thought it was 3 mill quid? "England goalkeeper" is hardly an imprimateur of quality, and how do you know when he will reach his peak? He's had a torrid few years, it's not like he's been improving every year.

Can you give it a rest with the sarcasm, it's a bit tired.

[DE.]

Interesting. My take on the current squad:

1 GK Paul Robinson: Has a habit of letting shots from distance and low-placed shots beat him, but realistically we couldn't get anybody better in. He's good enough.

2 DF Lars Jacobsen: Consistant whenever he's played.

4 DF Christopher Samba: Our best player.

5 DF Gaël Givet: Generally consistant. Not much of an attacking threat but does defensive duties fairly well.

6 DF Ryan Nelsen (captain): This should be his last season as captain, and his last season in the first team. Too old, making mistakes fairly often. I love the admiral, but his time is up.

27 DF Míchel Salgado: Baffling business by Sam. Unless we manage to snare a few decent players from Madrid through his links I don't see why this guy is eating a hole in our wage bill.

39 DF Pascal Chimbonda: Was unsure about his signing, but other than his attempted knock-out punch has been very good for us. Versatile and skilled - a good player.

7 MF Brett Emerton: A good player for us when fit. If he's going to keep picking up niggling injuries then we could have a problem, as he's certainly not getting any younger.

8 MF David Dunn (vice-captain): Despite his past, we must keep Dunny. Not only a homegrown Blackburn lad but our only genuine creative threat.

9 FW Jason Roberts: Impact sub, ideally sell him for a decent price. He doesn't do the business consistantly enough.

10 FW Benni McCarthy: Sometimes I love Benni Mac, sometimes I loathe him. 32 and again, not getting any younger. If his heart's not in it we should move him on.

11 MF Vince Grella: In the games he doesn't get injured or sent off he usually has one good half. Not sure that's enough. I doubt we'll get our 4M back so best to keep him.

12 MF Morten Gamst Pedersen: A ghost. Sell.

15 MF Steven Nzonzi: A potential gem. Hopefully between him and Grella we have our defensive midfield worries solved for the foreseeable future.

17 MF Keith Andrews: Tries hard, but is a bottom-half premiership player at best. If we want to do better we need to move Keith on, or at the very least restrict him to sub appearances.

18 MF El Hadji Diouf: Plugged a hole last season. We need better. Sell.

20 MF Elrio van Heerden: Who knows.

21 DF Martin Olsson: Won't be on a high wage and may still come through for us. Keep.

22 FW Nikola Kalinić: His blooding into premier league football has been hampered by an awful debut, competition from Di Santo, and our 1 striker formation. Time will tell, haven't seen enough of him to judge his worth.

23 FW David Hoilett: If he's rejecting our contract offers we need to get rid for whatever price we can get.

26 FW Franco Di Santo (on loan from Chelsea): Has a little trouble finding the net, which isn't good for a striker, but in our favoured 4-5-1 formation his role is as much to link up with midfield and create chances for them as scoring goals. He has great potential, and in the future could become a very good striker. If we can buy then we must.

[mellison24]

I thought it was 3 mill quid? "England goalkeeper" is hardly an imprimateur of quality, and how do you know when he will reach his peak? He's had a torrid few years, it's not like he's been improving every year.

Can you give it a rest with the sarcasm, it's a bit tired.

well, we sold brad for 1.5mill and got in robbo as his 3mill replacement. And goalies generally reach their peak in their early to mid 30's. They get better with age, because their position on the pitch is all about awareness, concentration and yes, positioning. But I haven't seen anything to suggest we could do much better than Robbo. I think he is superb and without him, we'd have conceded FAR more.

[Amo]

well, we sold brad for 1.5mill and got in robbo as his 3mill replacement. And goalies generally reach their peak in their early to mid 30's. They get better with age, because their position on the pitch is all about awareness, concentration and yes, positioning. But I haven't seen anything to suggest we could do much better than Robbo. I think he is superb and without him, we'd have conceded FAR more.

I thought Brad was sold for more than that?

[mellison24]

Alls I know is that robbo cost 1.5mil more than what we sold brad for. But we sold brad for no higher than 2mil. I thought it was 1.5mil

[broadsword]

http://www.skysports.com/football/player/0,19754,11676_35300,00.html

£3.5 mill for Robinson.

http://www.birminghammail.net/birmingham-sport/aston-villa-fc/aston-villa-player-profiles/2009/08/16/1-brad-friedel-player-profile-97319-24455927/

Villa refused to state the fee for Friedel, but the Brum Mail says £2m, wikipedia says 2.5m.

Mellison, just what percentage of what you say on here is completely made-up nonsense?

Since when do goalkeepers get valued at net cost after subtracting the cost of the player they replace (especially given when it's not a swap deal)?

I don't think he's "superb" and nothing you've said really defeats my point.

he's not given us value-for-money, 3.5 mill is a lot for us to spend, I reckon we could've gotten an as-good replacement as Robinson for less than a million.

[Miker]

Mid-season is a bad time to shake up the squad, but I think some changes need to be made in January. I think the entire premier league is in a transitory stage, not just us. Next year the opposition will be fiercer and we'll have to be ready to face it.

Our first team (per Wikipedia):

1 GK Paul Robinson: Despite an occassional bad game, he is an outstanding keeper and we need him.

2 DF Lars Jacobsen: Consistently good.

4 DF Christopher Samba: A star.

5 DF Gaël Givet: Consistently good.

6 DF Ryan Nelsen (captain): Good, but getting older, making errors. Keep him but we need to start winding him down.

7 MF Brett Emerton: Injury prone. He should only be kept on a contract that contemplates his availability for 20 games/season.

8 MF David Dunn (vice-captain): A star.

9 FW Jason Roberts: A most a sub player to defend a lead and worry defenders. If he can't accept that role, sell him.

10 FW Benni McCarthy: Skilled but lazy with an over-inflated opinion of himself. Sell him.

11 MF Vince Grella: Consistently good.

12 MF Morten Gamst Pedersen: No drive, no ambition and no heart. Sell him.

15 MF Steven Nzonzi: A star in the making.

17 MF Keith Andrews: I like Keith, but he should be a substitute only. If we can get a decent fee, sell him.

18 MF El Hadji Diouf: Skilled but disruptive and has an over-inflated opinion of himself. Sell him.

20 MF Elrio van Heerden: One for the future, I think. Jury is still out.

21 DF Martin Olsson: Ditto.

22 FW Nikola Kalinić: I think he's coming along well. Should get a run of games as a starter. I think he's a star in the making.

23 FW David Hoilett: He might be a star in the making but he's not for us. Sell him and minimize our losses.

26 FW Franco Di Santo (on loan from Chelsea): Buying him should be one of two objective this January. A star in the making.

27 DF Míchel Salgado: I only have seen him a few times, but I have a good feeling about this player. Keep him.

28 DF Phil Jones: A star in the making who deserves some game time.

29 DF Gavin Gunning: No opinion.

32 GK Jason Brown: No opinion.

34 GK Frank Fielding: No opinion.

39 DF Pascal Chimbonda: Consistently good.

The only players who must go, IMO, are Reid (not listed above as he is off budget [i assume] at QPR), MGP, EHD, Hoilett, and McCarthy. Roberts and Andrews are maybes, considering their desire to stay a Rover (Roberts' issue) and the cash we could get for selling them (Andrews' issue). Our first goal should be keeping Di Santo and our second should be getting a pacey left side player. The other problems can be dealt with in the summer (such as Rigters and other fringe players).

I actually agree with this entirely. Spot on smoss!

[mellison24]

http://www.skysports.com/football/player/0,19754,11676_35300,00.html

£3.5 mill for Robinson.

http://www.birminghammail.net/birmingham-sport/aston-villa-fc/aston-villa-player-profiles/2009/08/16/1-brad-friedel-player-profile-97319-24455927/

Villa refused to state the fee for Friedel, but the Brum Mail says £2m, wikipedia says 2.5m.

Mellison, just what percentage of what you say on here is completely made-up nonsense?

Since when do goalkeepers get valued at net cost after subtracting the cost of the player they replace (especially given when it's not a swap deal)?

I don't think he's "superb" and nothing you've said really defeats my point.

he's not given us value-for-money, 3.5 mill is a lot for us to spend, I reckon we could've gotten an as-good replacement as Robinson for less than a million.

Stop being pedantic. We sold Brad for 2mil. We brought in Robbo for 3.5mil. In my head that means we spent 1.5mil on a replacement keeper for Brad. That is the kind of remark people were making after we had bought him. Along the lines of 'To replace an aging Brad with a keeper 10 years younger and only lose 1.5mil in the process is a good deal'. On that basis, I think he has been value for money. The emphasis on 'I THINK'. Which means its my OPINION. I don't claim to be 'defeating your point'. I can see why people are getting frustrated with him, but I can't believe the fickleness of some who believe he should be dropped entirely for it. I merely disagree that he is as awful as people make out. I just think the conceding of long range shots is more the fault of the defense and central midfield in closing the oppo down, rather than the keeper, who cannot see the ball as it makes it's way past any number of players. That (i think) would explain his late dives for the ball, as we know he is an excellent reflex-save keeper. I just feel we have been spoilt with having the Brilliant Brad for 8 years and now Robbo is getting flak for what are very good performances when put into comparison of many other keepers in this league.

[tony gale's mic]

Robinson is not outstanding by any means.

Fact: he had the second worst saves to shots ratio in the league last season.

Fact: so far this season he has the worst.

Fact: most keepers are at their peak at Robbo's age and stay that way till their mid 30s. You look at most of the worlds top keepers and they've been doing it since their mid 20s. Brad was an exception; his career followed a very unusual course compared to most.

I do not understand this deification of the man. If I was offered a lucky dip of all the first choice keepers in this league vs keeping Robbo I'd choose the first option.

[cn174]

Along the lines of 'To replace an aging Brad with a keeper 10 years younger and only lose 1.5mil in the process is a good deal'. On that basis, I think he has been value for money.

It is only value for money if they are of a similar or better quality.

[patrickvalery]

Stop being pedantic. We sold Brad for 2mil. We brought in Robbo for 3.5mil. In my head that means we spent 1.5mil on a replacement keeper for Brad. That is the kind of remark people were making after we had bought him. Along the lines of 'To replace an aging Brad with a keeper 10 years younger and only lose 1.5mil in the process is a good deal'. On that basis, I think he has been value for money. The emphasis on 'I THINK'. Which means its my OPINION. I don't claim to be 'defeating your point'. I can see why people are getting frustrated with him, but I can't believe the fickleness of some who believe he should be dropped entirely for it. I merely disagree that he is as awful as people make out. I just think the conceding of long range shots is more the fault of the defense and central midfield in closing the oppo down, rather than the keeper, who cannot see the ball as it makes it's way past any number of players. That (i think) would explain his late dives for the ball, as we know he is an excellent reflex-save keeper. I just feel we have been spoilt with having the Brilliant Brad for 8 years and now Robbo is getting flak for what are very good performances when put into comparison of many other keepers in this league.

Agree in part with what your saying. I quite like Robbo. But i think we'd see an even better player if the England manager was open to selecting him. I'm pretty sure Robbo has been badly disheartened by the fact he has been overlooked for national honours recently.

But the net spend business doesn't compute i'm afraid. On that basis every player we've signed in the last 5 years would have been free when you consider the amout of incoming transfer funds we've had. You can dress it up however, you like. The fact is Robbo cost what he cost. Not the difference between outlay and income from another outgoing player sale. £3.5m for arguments sake. Has he been worth it? Probably just about, yes. Certainly in todays market £3.5m for an international keeper is pretty decent. In real terms of what £3.5m means to a club of our size. Well then his value for money is up for debate. Personally i like him and think we'd have been hard pushed to replace Brad with much better for the money. Especially considering Robbo's vast PL experience.

[Steve Moss]

I agree with most of these but is Emerton really injury prone? Until his knee he hadn't really missed that much had he?

I was going by memory. I recall he was injured against Boro and then again at Arsenal. Twice this year, and one of those was a major long term injury. If my car breaks down twice in a year and I would be getting very nervous about continued reliability.

But I concede I have the occassional brain fart and I could be completely mistaken, especially my prediction about the meaning of the second injury coming off the first. So injury prone is my opinion only and possibly wrong.

Has Lars Jacobsen been consistently good?

Robinson being outstanding really is a matter of opinion. I certainly don't think we got value for money there.

I think Jacobsen has been pretty good. His worst performances were in the feww weeks following the birth of his daughter (understandable as exhaustion is the bane of many a new parent). He makes mistakes, but who doesn't. Overall I've been more than satisfied with Jacobsen's performance.

We will have to agree to disagree about Robinson. I think he's been stellar more often than not, and that he's working under a major handicap, namely a midfield which is not blunting attacks the way it should. But again, pure opinion and I could well be wrong.

[Silencio]

well, we sold brad for 1.5mill and got in robbo as his 3mill replacement. And goalies generally reach their peak in their early to mid 30's. They get better with age, because their position on the pitch is all about awareness, concentration and yes, positioning. But I haven't seen anything to suggest we could do much better than Robbo. I think he is superb and without him, we'd have conceded FAR more.

Stop making a complete tit of yourself.

You are the opposite of Waggy but I think you are possibly more annoying. I'm all for being positive but let's face it we have an average team and an average squad. Some of our players are good, some are poor and I count Robinson as being one of the poor ones.

Robinson's peak was when he was around 18/19 and he played for Leeds vs Barcelona. He was outstanding and it's been a slow decline followed by a fast one since then. It's now bottomed out but what we get from him is usually only just about adequate, occassionaly great and sometimes terrible.. He is poor at stopping shots from distance and is poor on crosses. I never expected we could replace Brad with as good as keeper but anyone who thinks Robinson is a patch on him needs his head seeing to.

Being in the England squad is no mark of a keeper's quality. Been on the outskirts of it is a damning indictment.

[Majiball]

Agree in part with what your saying. I quite like Robbo. But i think we'd see an even better player if the England manager was open to selecting him. I'm pretty sure Robbo has been badly disheartened by the fact he has been overlooked for national honours recently.

Why Capello keeps picking match inexperienced Foster over him I don't know, he should be in the squad at least.

[tony gale's mic]

Because Foster has much more potential.

http://www.buzzinfootballblog.co.uk/why-ben-foster-should-start-for-england-against-belarus/1156

Ignore the stats about saves made and minutes between conceded goals as they're largely dependent on the defence in front of you. But look just how far back Robbo is on the amount of shots on target he's saving which is less dependent on the defence (note Foster is between West Ham's Green and Pompey's James) and you'll see Robbo is far behind his competitors. The figures this season are consistent with those of last season and for the fundamental thing a keeper needs to do, ie stop the ball from going past you, Robbo has consistently proven him to be not as good as many of the rest. He can pull off the odd great save which people remember for long enough till he produces another, but in between he's letting in ones like the Nevland goal.

[Majiball]

have we not had this debate before?

I'd far rather have a Rover in there than a Manc!!! Foster is 3rd Choice at United with probably barely 10-15% of the pitch time Robbo's had in his career. Game experience for me any time.

[patrickvalery]

Because Foster has much more potential.

http://www.buzzinfootballblog.co.uk/why-ben-foster-should-start-for-england-against-belarus/1156

Ignore the stats about saves made and minutes between conceded goals as they're largely dependent on the defence in front of you. But look just how far back Robbo is on the amount of shots on target he's saving which is less dependent on the defence (note Foster is between West Ham's Green and Pompey's James) and you'll see Robbo is far behind his competitors. The figures this season are consistent with those of last season and for the fundamental thing a keeper needs to do, ie stop the ball from going past you, Robbo has consistently proven him to be not as good as many of the rest. He can pull off the odd great save which people remember for long enough till he produces another, but in between he's letting in ones like the Nevland goal.

I wonder if theres any stats to see how many goal scoring moves were started by each keeper. I doubt there are. But it might make for interesting reading. Obviously i'm only applying guess work. Could easily be down the list on that too. However, there is more to goal keeping than just stopping shots. If that simple rule applied to every position then there would be little to no future for strikers like Di Santo. Ie he doesn't score goals so he must be crap.

[broadsword]

But it's got to be the primary criteria for a goalkeeper, no?

I really couldn't care less about starting goal-scoring moves. If he's good at defending his own goal then I'll take that, I'm willing to take the risk on how good he is at starting goal-scoring moves.

di Santo is still developing, I expect his goals-to-games ratio to improve with time (otherwise, he won't be very good). Robinson is experienced and I doubt he will get much better now.

A good point that stats are not everything, but not a good back-up example.

[patrickvalery]

But it's got to be the primary criteria for a goalkeeper, no?

I really couldn't care less about starting goal-scoring moves. If he's good at defending his own goal then I'll take that, I'm willing to take the risk on how good he is at starting goal-scoring moves.

di Santo is still developing, I expect his goals-to-games ratio to improve with time (otherwise, he won't be very good). Robinson is experienced and I doubt he will get much better now.

A good point that stats are not everything, but not a good back-up example.

I wasn't having a dig Bryan. Just thought it would be interesting to see / read. No more than that.

[tcj_jones]

Anybody notice that Robbo is coming for far fewer balls into the box now than before and, consequently, is making fewer mistakes in this area of his game?

This is, no doubt, the work of the coaches and it's paying dividends.

Sorry if I'm taking this off track a little, but let's have a look at the numerous goalkeepers of the Premier League for a moment:

Personally, I'd say Robbo is a better keeper than the likes of:

Almunia, Green, Foster, Gomes, Gordon, Fulop, Sorensen, Jensen, Hart, Myhill, Hennessey.

Keepers who are definitely better are:

Cech, Reina, Van der Saar, Given.

Those around the same level of ability:

Friedel, Howard, Schwarzer, Cudicini, Kirkland, Jaaskelainen, James.

For a club of our stature and for only £3m, Robbo was a great buy, one of the very few good things Ince did at the club. Of the keepers listed above, several only have a few years left at the top level, while other cost several times what Robbo did. It makes him both a good purchase and a good investment.

[broadsword]

I wasn't having a dig Bryan. Just thought it would be interesting to see / read. No more than that.

No worries.

[BrownieFC]

Anybody notice that Robbo is coming for far fewer balls into the box now than before and, consequently, is making fewer mistakes in this area of his game?

This is, no doubt, the work of the coaches and it's paying dividends.

Sorry if I'm taking this off track a little, but let's have a look at the numerous goalkeepers of the Premier League for a moment:

Personally, I'd say Robbo is a better keeper than the likes of:

Almunia, Green, Foster, Gomes, Gordon, Fulop, Sorensen, Jensen, Hart, Myhill, Hennessey.

Keepers who are definitely better are:

Cech, Reina, Van der Saar, Given.

Those around the same level of ability:

Friedel, Howard, Schwarzer, Cudicini, Kirkland, Jaaskelainen, James.

For a club of our stature and for only £3m, Robbo was a great buy, one of the very few good things Ince did at the club. Of the keepers listed above, several only have a few years left at the top level, while other cost several times what Robbo did. It makes him both a good purchase and a good investment.

The ones in bold are better than robbo especially Sorensen hes having a cracking season.