[Archived] Two Tier League And Celtic And Rangers

[Ianrally]

I bet the Police in Mancland can't wait for Rangers to visit them twice a year

[FourLaneBlue]

Why would any clubs even consider this? Turkeys voting for Christmas...

Phil Gartside should not be allowed a vote on anything due to innate buffoonery. How would drafting in two clubs to finish above Bolton be any use to him or his club? Ridiculous notion.

Of course it would be great for Rangers and Celtic but not for any other team.

[thenodrog]

I bet the Police in Mancland can't wait for Rangers to visit them twice a year

That'd be 4 times wouldn't it?

[T4E]

That'd be 4 times wouldn't it?

How so?

[roversmad95]

How so?

im guessing that would be rangers and celtic both going to city and united...

[thenodrog]

How so?

Notlob and Wigan are in Greater Manchester. If Celtic are to be involved it'd be 8 fixtures. Sh1t would really hit the fan if they were both in Greater Manchester together!

[joey_big_nose]

"an enemy" ???

Cock!

I concur TDI!

A vast number of Scots live in london and England, loads are in the British army, they have supplied hundereds of engineers, inventors, politicians, generals, diplomats, writers, explorers and bankers that served and expanded the British Empire. The first bloody king on England and Scotland was a Scot (King James the 1st and 6th). Of course there are a minority who have issues with England. But our past and future and inextricably linked but over the last 200 years our closest and most generous friends have been the Welsh and the Scots. It's possible the Scots will part from the UK in the future but that will be a decision based on economical and political factors much more than predjudice.

I am a southerner, loads of people on here dislike southerners for a variety of inane broadly baseless stereotypes. Same northern wippet-flatcap balls can be found on a West Ham forum or Portsmouth. Does that mean we are enemies? I hope not. It is all bluff.

[Al]

Notlob and Wigan are in Greater Manchester. If Celtic are to be involved it'd be 8 fixtures. Sh1t would really hit the fan if they were both in Greater Manchester together!

Chances are Bolton and Wigan would not be in the same league if this happened. Maybe Rovers wouldn't either.

[mode_m]

If only they would place as much effort on improving the SPL.

[thenodrog]

I concur TDI!

A vast number of Scots live in london and England, loads are in the British army, they have supplied hundereds of engineers, inventors, politicians, generals, diplomats, writers, explorers and bankers that served and expanded the British Empire. The first bloody king on England and Scotland was a Scot (King James the 1st and 6th). Of course there are a minority who have issues with England. But our past and future and inextricably linked but over the last 200 years our closest and most generous friends have been the Welsh and the Scots. It's possible the Scots will part from the UK in the future but that will be a decision based on economical and political factors much more than predjudice.

I am a southerner, loads of people on here dislike southerners for a variety of inane broadly baseless stereotypes. Same northern wippet-flatcap balls can be found on a West Ham forum or Portsmouth. Does that mean we are enemies? I hope not. It is all bluff.

Very good and so very even handed Joey ........... but if you were prepared to spend a fraction as long thinking as you do typing and agreeing with TDI then maybe you could inform us all just who originally coined the term 'the auld enemy'?

[Paul]

I live in Elgin in Morayshire and I can ensure you that for the majority of Scots my statement is true

My wife of nearly 30 years hails from the Borders and my oldest friend from Argyll. Having spent a lot of time north of the Border I'd suggest your view may be influenced by your own attitudes. Sure there are some Scots who hate the English but to suggest the majority do is ridiculous.

Both are to be discouraged but Rangers rally around our Queen whilst Celtic hate her very image. It's clear cut.... if we let any in then it has to be the Gers and the Gers only! Let the fienien bstards wallow in the mire of their poverty and their hatred forever.

Good grief!

Sorry but I'm not really into turning the other cheek or offering the hand of friendship to an enemy. More like kick em when they are down or turning the knife.

Is there a nation or race on the planet you don't have a problem with, other than pure breed Anglo Saxon?

[Steve Moss]

Is there such a thing? I mean with all the invasions and counter-invasions (Celts, Romans (who brought Scythians over too, IIRC), Anglo-Saxon-Jutes, Danes, Norwegians, Normans (Norwegians + French), Scots, etc.) and immigration (Flemings and Italians settled in England in the middle ages, if memory serves), a pure bred Anglo-Saxon might be a rare creature. Which is a good thing, as mutts are generally healthier.

[Paul]

Is there such a thing? I mean with all the invasions and counter-invasions (Celts, Romans (who brought Scythians over too, IIRC), Anglo-Saxon-Jutes, Danes, Norwegians, Normans (Norwegians + French), Scots, etc.) and immigration (Flemings and Italians settled in England in the middle ages, if memory serves), a pure bred Anglo-Saxon might be a rare creature. Which is a good thing, as mutts are generally healthier.

You and I know this to be true................

[Ewood Spark]

Both are to be discouraged but Rangers rally around our Queen whilst Celtic hate her very image. It's clear cut.... if we let any in then it has to be the Gers and the Gers only! Let the fienien bstards wallow in the mire of their poverty and their hatred forever.

Dunno 'bout that; ... I find their unwillingness to kow-tow to an unelected parasite quite an endearing feature.

Oops forgot my main point ... don't let either of them in ... it would be the final nail in Rovers Premiership coffin.

[Tim Southampton Rover]

There is more to gain for the Glasgow giants joining the league than the English clubs. We have a great league already and changing it to a two tier league won't improve anything but actually puts it at risk. A two tier league will mean those in the top tier will benefit a lot and those in the bottom tier will be even further apart from the rest. It's pushing the weak out and keeping the strongest teams strong.

Instead of looking at creating a new league, we need to focus on what's negative about our current league and improve that. We need teams such as Rovers, Fulham etc to compete with the top teams without being pushed further away. In NFL they have the draft system which has worked wonders to improve competition. We need to look at new ideas to help teams and not just think about money the Premier League can get. England and other top leagues need to focus more on reducing debt and focus on helping teams who maintain their finances at a good level to create more competiton.

[CrazyIvan]

The Thenodrog V Jim Mk2 tennis match is entertaining but not really what I came on here to read about...

10 out of 10 for the insults though

[modes98]

12 posts removed. Can we stay on topic please. Keep the arguements to PMs.

[only2garners]

My wife of nearly 30 years hails from the Borders and my oldest friend from Argyll. Having spent a lot of time north of the Border I'd suggest your view may be influenced by your own attitudes. Sure there are some Scots who hate the English but to suggest the majority do is ridiculous.

Is there a nation or race on the planet you don't have a problem with, other than pure breed Anglo Saxon?

My wife, also of nearly 30 years, although born in Bristol, is from a long line of Borders Scots - I've never had any problem with anyone from Galasheils and I've met a good few. I'm from a long line of West Lancs farmers on my Dad's side, so am almost certainly part Viking - I presumably am also not acceptable to Gordon as well. Perhaps I should support Norway?

Back on topic, in the long run Rovers will not survive in the current 20 team Premiership - economics will get us in the end under present rules. Having a two division Premier League will perversely help us survive in our present format, whereas a relegation to the Championship would be disastrous. That's not to say that I'm in favour of Celtic and Rangers joining the league because I'm not.

[thenodrog]

My wife, also of nearly 30 years, although born in Bristol, is from a long line of Borders Scots - I've never had any problem with anyone from Galasheils and I've met a good few. I'm from a long line of West Lancs farmers on my Dad's side, so am almost certainly part Viking - I presumably am also not acceptable to Gordon as well. Perhaps I should support Norway?

On the contrary only2garners. I've kinda got a soft spot for the Vikings. Your ancestors were probably Saxons, they were more the farming types of that period. The 'part' viking in you will have happened when some marauding vikings killed your male ancestor and his sons in order to steal his cattle and rape his wife and daughters in the process.

[RoyRover]

I wouldn't be in favour of the a two tier league at all. As someone pointed out, it just makes the strong teams stronger and the weak team weaker. If the two team were to join, would it not just be possible to have a 22 team league? Or if they were to join, place them in the Championship and let them fight for promotion like everyone else? I'm a die hard Celtic fan and can see positives and negatives from them joining the league. I think you have to be fair to the other English clubs in the other divisions and make sure that they don't suffer in terms of promotion or relegation, just so Celtic and Rangers can fit into the league.

Would people not have the same arguments about Cardiff and Swansea being in the Premier League? I realise there isn't a professional league in Wales, so where else would these teams play? But I'm sure that people could argue that if you allow Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham play in English football, three teams from another country who totally outweigh the standard of football played in the rest of the country, then why couldn't the same be done for Celtic and Rangers? Obviously the other clubs in Scotland, like Hibs, Hearts and Motherwell are better than the other clubs that you would find in Wales (excluding Cardiff, Wrexham and Swansea) in terms of size, money and the ability to compete with Celtic and Rangers. But Celtic and Rangers have been so dominant in Scottish football for the last 25 years, that it could be argued that they have out grown the league and country that they play in, like Cardiff and Swansea.

Fifa would have to be careful about this though, because other countries could start doing the same thing and football could suffer. FC Porto and Benfica may want to join the Primera Liga. Teams like Ajax, PSV, Anderlecht, FC Copenhagen and Feyenord may want to join the Bundesliga. Lyon and Marseilles may think that playing in Serie A is better for them. Before you know it, there's a mix of teams from different countries playing in one league. There are certain attractions to this, in terms of seeing new teams, having new rivals, traveling to different countries. However, you don't want football to lose it's soul and identity, which could easily happen, if teams were to start chopping and changing the leagues they play in. Apparently Phil Gartside has mentioned starting a new Irish 'franchise' to play in England. I'm not too keen on this idea at all. It's very American - last year the Seattle Sonics NBA franchise was moved to Oklahoma and are now known as the Oklahoma City Thunder. Apparently they have been getting good crowds and have one of the best players in the game in Kevin Durant. But football is older and more traditional than this. Yes, teams like AFC Wimbeldon have been formed (out of Wimbeldon's decision to move to Milton Keynes and start a new team, which kind of contradicts my last point point!), but they entered in at the lowest levels of English football and are looking to move their way up the leagues. To just create a new team, put them in the Premiership and expect them to compete or have a big following, seems unrealistic to me.

[LeChuck]

I wouldn't be in favour of the a two tier league at all. As someone pointed out, it just makes the strong teams stronger and the weak team weaker.

Isn't one of the benefits though that it stops relegation being a disaster for clubs? Because of the current £40 million drop for leaving the Premier League, a lot of clubs are crippled by that fear.

If a team is relegated at the moment they basically have to flog all their players and start from scratch, which can easily result in a free-fall down the divisions. If that fear was removed then perhaps clubs could build with a more long term plan - developing younger players instead of signing foreign journymen, for example.

Obviously the revenue for being in the second tier would be less, but nothing like as dramatic as leaving the PL altogether. I think this is what Gartside is aiming towards - why would he just want to make the strong teams stronger? That hardly benefits Bolton. The Champions League is responsible for keeping the strong teams strong, the PL in comparison is very even in it's money distribution.

Having leagues with 18 teams in could allow teams to operate with smaller squads as well, which could help to reduce bloated wage budgets at most clubs.

Personally I think there are a lot of upsides to a two-tier league and I'd like to see that part happen...I haven't decided yet though whether allowing Rangers and Celtic in would be a fair compromise.

[RoyRover]

Isn't one of the benefits though that it stops relegation being a disaster for clubs? Because of the current £40 million drop for leaving the Premier League, a lot of clubs are crippled by that fear.

That's a fair point and it certainly could help clubs facing financial ruin.

[joey_big_nose]

Isn't one of the benefits though that it stops relegation being a disaster for clubs? Because of the current £40 million drop for leaving the Premier League, a lot of clubs are crippled by that fear.

If a team is relegated at the moment they basically have to flog all their players and start from scratch, which can easily result in a free-fall down the divisions. If that fear was removed then perhaps clubs could build with a more long term plan - developing younger players instead of signing foreign journymen, for example.

Obviously the revenue for being in the second tier would be less, but nothing like as dramatic as leaving the PL altogether. I think this is what Gartside is aiming towards - why would he just want to make the strong teams stronger? That hardly benefits Bolton. The Champions League is responsible for keeping the strong teams strong, the PL in comparison is very even in it's money distribution.

Having leagues with 18 teams in could allow teams to operate with smaller squads as well, which could help to reduce bloated wage budgets at most clubs.

Personally I think there are a lot of upsides to a two-tier league and I'd like to see that part happen...I haven't decided yet though whether allowing Rangers and Celtic in would be a fair compromise.

Agreed. Perhaps the people who would get screwed by the two tier plan aren't the likes of us (at the moment anyway), but lower half championship teams. They will find it harder to compete with "yo-yo" teams like West Brom, Wolves, etc. who don't really worry about dropping down to League One and the cataclysimic drop in revenue that will produce.

However how this pans out depends on three big issues - 1) How they will divide the revenue between "Prem 1" and "Prem 2", 2) If they will reduce the size of "Prem 1" to 18 teams, and 3) whether ultimately the restructure will add up to extending the rich clubs dominance or actually end up making the league more competitive by spreading money. All these things have not been answered I think? And all are more important to us than whether the Old Firm join. I suspect the big four plus Spurs, Man City, Villa are not going to fancy giving up some of their Sky money in order for greater financial safety as they will not seriously think they will ever be relegated. So they might need to be forced to accepting by the other teams bullying them into it. In such a scenario it will be interesting to see if any of them pull out the "Euro Super League" threat.

[tcj_jones]

Rangers and Celtic are welcome south, but they're going to have to start in the very bottom tier of professional football in this country and work their way up.

Why should they be given priority over those clubs who have a tradition and history in English football?

[only2garners]

On the contrary only2garners. I've kinda got a soft spot for the Vikings. Your ancestors were probably Saxons, they were more the farming types of that period. The 'part' viking in you will have happened when some marauding vikings killed your male ancestor and his sons in order to steal his cattle and rape his wife and daughters in the process.

At the risk of wandering down a blind alley nothing to do with the topic, you're wandering down the Viking stereotype. It's fairly conclusively proven now that the Norwegian Vikings settled in West Lancashire and farmed the land. I don't think there were many Saxons to displace at the time.