[Archived] Two Tier League And Celtic And Rangers

[DanLad]

Rangers and Celtic are welcome south, but they're going to have to start in the very bottom tier of professional football in this country and work their way up.

Why don't they do this?

They fancy themselves as big as the Arsenal's and Man Utd's of the world. Arsenal's and Man Utd reserve sides could probably operate comfortably in the Championship or lower echelons of the Prem.

Enter a team in non-league now. Blood youngsters and give fringe players competitive games and work through the leagues. When you get to the Prem then you can make the switch fully. It'd take a few years, but if they'd have done this a few years ago they'd be there now. None of this 'do they deserve to jump the queue' as they'd be there by rights.

There might be a FIFA thing against entering teams in 2 leagues, or something, but wouldn't that be ruled uncompetitive under European law?

[Hughesy]

I like Celtic & Rangers as clubs, and they are big clubs - but I fear that should we let them join in, then basically it is just the 1st step to allowing teams to play in whatever league they want and within another 10 years the European Super league will happen and we would lose the biggest 4 teams or so from this country and they would just grow stronger.

Some will say 'Good' but it will spoil our league, it will hurt the history of all the competitions and it would simply devalue our own game.

[LeChuck]

I suspect the big four plus Spurs, Man City, Villa are not going to fancy giving up some of their Sky money in order for greater financial safety as they will not seriously think they will ever be relegated.

I'm completely guessing here, but I think that is the idea behind adding Celtic and Rangers - the Premier League could then make more money which would hopefully offset the cost of having two tiers. The hundreds of thousands of fans that the Glasgow teams would bring would be worth millions to the Premier League, and the initial hype probably worth even more.

There might be a FIFA thing against entering teams in 2 leagues, or something, but wouldn't that be ruled uncompetitive under European law?

I don't know whether such a rule exists, but I don't see how it could be within the laws of FIFA to freely move players between clubs in different countries as if they were the same team. Didn't Abramovich nearly get in trouble for being involved with the Sponsorship of CSKA and owning Chelsea? That's nowhere near as blatant as entering two teams in neighbouring countries but was still infringing on laws, so I can't imagine Celtic and Rangers could take the route you suggested.

[Rover Down Under]

A "two tier" league? In other words the top tier is the current PL, minus a few teams, and the lower tier is the current Championship right? Which would make the current Championship, effectively, the current League One and the current League...oh sod it, lets speak olde football language:

Top tier Premier League = 1st Division

Lower Tier = 2nd Division

Championship - 3rd Division

League One = 4th Division

League Two = Conference

The only difference this two tier league seems to make is that lower teams don't loose as much dosh for being relegated.

How long before we have a "three tier" and "four tier" league? Or is this an elaborate plot for the Premiere League to take over the Football League altogether?

Tell you what, since the system isn't working, there is unfair distribution of money etc. etc. why not just revert back to the old football league system? Share the cash about a bit more and voila! None of this namby pamby smoke and mirrors bull that is being sugar coated with the inclusion of Rangers & Celtic.

This whole idea wreaks of the footballing elite tacitly admitting the system is wrong and this is their face-saving way out. And does anyone actually think this will result in more money for smaller clubs? They may get more money on paper but the rich clubs will get more and the gap will grow bigger. Smaller clubs might get 10m more, and the richer clubs get 100m more, relatively speaking smaller clubs are worse off, not better. Since it only takes a 14 club majority the smaller clubs should just vote to scrap the FA and the PL and rejoin the Football League...simple.

[jodrell]

Just a couple of points. Firstly why does the Glasgow two want to come south? Simple money why should we bail them out both is losing money because they both paid silly money in wages and transfers for average players. TV will not pay big money for the standard of football so they want some of ours.

If the boot was on the other foot and they had all the TV revenue and clubs in England were skint would the Glasgow two and the S.F.A. want them in the Scottish League? I don’t think so.

On the point of where do they start? they should not start in the premier league obviously or the championship. But can the lower league clubs afford the cost of policing thousands of drunks and travelling up to Glasgow mid week? Plymouth fans are going to love that. No thank you

[Fife Rover]

The Scotts hate the English why should we give them anything

What a load of complete rubbish!!! I have lived and worked in Scotland for over 30 years,and I have never noticed any evidence for that hysterical OTT statement. It is just part of the very widely believed but equally widely wrong propaganda that is prevalent in England, and which you have to live up here for just a short time to realise is nothing but deliberate hatred stirring by English people with an agenda. And before anyone starts quoting the SNP at me I can tell you that I have quite a lot of good friends who are SNP supporters, and their desire to sever ties with the UK is nothing whatever to do with hating the English; it is based on their opinion that Scotland as a small country in Europe would do far better economically than they do as part of the UK. Obviously I don't agree with them and we have many (sometimes animated) discussions on the subject. In all my time here I have just once been abused for being English, and that was at a football match by 3 drunken hooligans who were simply hell-bent on looking for a punch up with anyone who would oblige them. And that was way back in 1979, nothing like it since.

Oh and if you are going to talk about these kind of things, at least learn to spell Scots correctly, otherwise it just emphasises how ignorant you actually are.

[TimmyJimmy]

Know absolutely nothing about this topic. Please help me out, is it really being suggested that the EPL is split into two to let Rangers and Celtic join, and that to compensate there will be no relegation from the second tier?

Sounds horrendous. Presumably no relegation means no promotions from the Championship, if so it won't go down well with the mega rich guys hoovering up lower league clubs with the intention of growing them into the EPL. Does this really mean we will never see Leeds, Newcastle etc back in the top division?

On a general point it's bad for us and teams like us to let Rangers and Celtic in. Rangers are bust and Lloyds will foreclose soon. The history of near bust clubs who are in the EPL shows that they get bought up by billionaires. They invest massively and then we town teams can't compete in transfer fees/wages.

If we vote for this we'd be insane. One very small step away from a European league. (Just noticed that Tottenham Harry is up for it - that clinches it, we're b*ggered!).

[LeChuck]

TimmyJimmy - I haven't read anything about no promotion/relegation between the divisions, I've just read the BBC News story on it as well and no mention of it there. Which news article does it mention that in? I'd be 100% against it if that is true.

[gumboots]

TimmyJimmy - I haven't read anything about no promotion/relegation between the divisions, I've just read the BBC News story on it as well and no mention of it there. Which news article does it mention that in? I'd be 100% against it if that is true.

The no promotion and relegation thing has been going round for a while now. I've no idea whehter it's in the current proposals but was certainly part of Gartside's original proposals. That's why he can suggest the 2 tier league - because however rubbish Bolton are, unloess they get relegated and miss out before it's set up, it's a guarantted place in one of the top two tiers with the cash it brings. And it's a definite no from me to Celtic and Rangers. Why should they be allowed in when they have played no part whatsoever in developing the product that is the premier league? I have nothing against Scots, in fact most of those I know (and some of my family are Glasgow born Rangers fans) are very pleasant people but in our league - no thanks

[Majiball]

It might well help out some teams further down the pyramid as well. I believe Championship teams receive around about £1million a year for TV at present. Its not a lot really a lot, with greater financial rewards further down the pyramid, lesser teams could then become stronger as promotion to the prem 2 would be reasonably attainable.

I'm not to sure about Celtic and Ranger TBH, whilst I can see the attraction I'm not sure about how it would effect Scottish football. TV deals and the such would surely deplete, but other teams would at least get into Europe and hopefully with a few different teams at first it could stimulate the transfer market with the extra monies those teams would receive. My annual £5.00 punt on Hearts though might actually have some legs for once, though.

Its not going to start a cascade in other countries the UK is not the same as Spain and Portugal, we are inter governed and they a definitely separate. So I don't see it causing much bother abroad. As for no relegation that is just not going to happen, not for one second I believe that the FA, UEFA or FIFA would allow it. The premier league do not make the rules of the game up the afore mentioned do.

[philipl]

I am absolutely delighted to find out that my heritage is unacceptable to the 'drog!

Unless Rangers and Celtic can somehow bring extra European qualification places with them (which obviously they cannot), the Big 4 and any wannabe Big 4s are going to kill this initiative.

Shame really as there are some merits to the redistributive ethos of the proposal but why oh why has it been contaminated with that Glaswegian nonsense?

[neekoy]

Just go the whole hog and break the UK into conferences, play your year, enter the conference playoffs then into the finals.

Bury and Blackpool playing week in week out against Blackburn and Burnley. Derby's every week!

[philipl]

Old Firm dead duck

[Paul]

"Bridging that gap increasingly looks beyond medium-sized clubs like Bolton, who have to run to standstill. In the club's holding company annual report, published last week, Gartside said that addressing this income gap was the league's greatest challenge: "Addressing this polarisation of clubs and the increasing revenue differentials will, I believe, be the major strategic issue for the Premier League over the coming years.

"The gap between Premier League revenues and those of the Championship continues to widen and I believe a 'fear factor' is beginning to emerge among Premier League clubs outside the top few.

Nice to read a football club chairman addressing the reality of the PL. It's become noticeable those who praise the PL are primarily employed by the media, those who actually work in the industry are the ones expressing concern.

"Such are the financial realities of the league that last season Blackburn cautioned in their accounts that there was little or no chance of them making a profit in the medium-term, despite the unprecedented media revenue"

I missed this previously, is it true?

[PAFELL]

Rangers and Celtic are welcome south, but they're going to have to start in the very bottom tier of professional football in this country and work their way up.

Why should they be given priority over those clubs who have a tradition and history in English football?

If you were a supporter of any other scottish prem club, you would maybe ask, why have ONLY Celtic and Rangers been given the chance to join the English league / prem. Why should they be allowed to make money and not us. Although I see the idea, it opens up a whole can of worms with regards to fairness. Though I suppose if they added the Scottish prem to the bottom of the English league system - ie created another division - and allowed every team to work itself up to the top, this would be somewhat fairer - but not completely fair.

I am undecided as to wiether I would want either of the scottish clubs into the English league. Though if they did they would have start at the very bottom like every other club - but this is what they would not agree too.

[thenodrog]

Though if they did they would have start at the very bottom like every other club - but this is what they would not agree too.

Dunno about that. Even starting at the bottom I imagine their income would increase.... and this is what it's all about nowadays.

[cletus]

I love Scotland, the place & most of its people, i have lots of family up there. I don`t support either of the BIG 2 either BUT in my view, a vote for the old firm to join the English Prem (in whatever form it may take) is a vote to throw my club BLACKBURN ROVERS FC off the top table. We`ll soon be ousted out of the way, cos Rovers don`t attract the dollars. The other BIG clubs will be rubbing their hands at having 2 extra bumper gates & tv revenue. Smaller unfashionable town teams like Rovers, Bolton, Wigan, Bumley etc.....will soon be forgotten by the bigger city clubs.

I feel a club of our history (one of the original full members) has far more right to play in the top ENGLISH leagues, than 2 Scottish clubs, who are only knocking on the door cos they want a share of the money.

Once they`re let in, we`ll soon be cast aside by our bigger more fashionable neighbours

btw....it was widely reported over the weekend, Celtic fans chanting & spoiling the remembrance day minutes silence during their game at Falkirk. Disgusting!

[thenodrog]

btw....it was widely reported over the weekend, Celtic fans chanting & spoiling the remembrance day minutes silence during their game at Falkirk. Disgusting!

Yet I got criticised by a few shallow thinkers for this post....... I must say I'm warming to the idea more and more.

http://www.brfcs.co.uk/mb/index.php/topic/22276-two-tier-league-and-celtic-and-rangers/page__view__findpost__p__839233

[BRFC95]

Gartside has had his brainwave kicked into touch.

The majority overwhelmingly rejected the heathen hordes rampaging through the EPL.

[only2garners]

Gartside has had his brainwave kicked into touch.

The majority overwhelmingly rejected the heathen hordes rampaging through the EPL.

Whilst the idea of Rangers and Celtic joining the PL has been kicked out they are still considering the rest of Gartside's proposals re two divisions.

[BRFC95]

Whilst the idea of Rangers and Celtic joining the PL has been kicked out they are still considering the rest of Gartside's proposals re two divisions.

Not bothered about his other proposals, my main bugbear has been ditched. Common sense prevails.

[LeChuck]

I'm glad they've voted against Celtic and Rangers.

I'm really for the idea of a two-tier Premier League though, I think taking the shackles of fear away from lower-mid table sides could liven up the Premier League immeasurably.

Premier League survival is by far the biggest priority for teams now (including ourselves), I think that year-on-year process prevents teams from really planning long term.

[Paul]

I'm glad they've voted against Celtic and Rangers.

I'm really for the idea of a two-tier Premier League though, I think taking the shackles of fear away from lower-mid table sides could liven up the Premier League immeasurably.

Premier League survival is by far the biggest priority for teams now (including ourselves), I think that year-on-year process prevents teams from really planning long term.

Le Chuck I don't understand how a two-tier PL can remove the fear / threat of relegation? I presume the lower tier will consist of the best perceived teams from the current Championship. Secondly we'd have to presume the bulk of the money will remain in the PL upper tier, after all turkeys don't vote for Christmas and there are plenty of turkeys running the PL and its clubs!! What would be the difference between being relegated to the current Championship and being relegated to the PL Lower tier - it will be the same teams that no one currently is prepared to pay to watch on TV. The overseas revenues don't add up to a very big deal, certainly nothing like current PL revenue.

[LeChuck]

Le Chuck I don't understand how a two-tier PL can remove the fear / threat of relegation? I presume the lower tier will consist of the best perceived teams from the current Championship. Secondly we'd have to presume the bulk of the money will remain in the PL upper tier, after all turkeys don't vote for Christmas and there are plenty of turkeys running the PL and its clubs!! What would be the difference between being relegated to the current Championship and being relegated to the PL Lower tier - it will be the same teams that no one currently is prepared to pay to watch on TV. The overseas revenues don't add up to a very big deal, certainly nothing like current PL revenue.

It would depend on the figures I guess, but I can't see how the second tier getting more money to bridge the gap between the divisions could be a bad thing. You would assume the Premier League would sell the rights for the two divisions collectively. Of course the majority of the money would be in the top division, but I'd imagine the second tier would get far more TV money than they currently manage.

Personally I think people just don't watch the Championship because it's unfashionable - I certainly don't think the football on offer there differs much to a lot of what we see in the Premier League. Stick a 'Premier League' badge on it and it would probably attract more people.

I thought that was why the Celtic/Rangers thing was thrown in there along with the two tier idea - that was a way of generating significant extra revenue to support the two tier system, and also give a good reason to watch the Premier League second tier.

[philipl]

There is a chance that there will be something done to narrow the financial gap created by the Champions League as there are 16 Prem clubs that don't get into the CL and "only" 14 votes are needed to change things around.

Personally, I would do away with payments for TV appearances and share that equally. The increased media payments frm overseas broadcasts are going to be shared equally- £6m per club per year from next season.

Bolton's two tier proposal would probably increase the fear factor by spreading the parachute payment around 22 clubs instead of three.

At least the Celtic/Rangers nonsense has been killed. Bring them in only if they bring a CL and a Europa League place with them. Otherwise, forget it.