[Archived] Rising Youth Unemployment

[BiggusLaddus]

Hang on one second. Dunnfc, who is it that told/encouraged you to go to university? The government?

When I was doing them it was assumed that anyone doing A-levels would go on to uni. The impression I got from teachers and the whole higher education system was that anyone who chose not to carry was considered a failure. This led to quite a lot of my peers who were just not cut out for university, feeling pressured to go on and then failing during their first year.

10yrs on and the ones I'm still in contact with are all getting on well with life doing jobs that do not require a degree to get into. No doubt working alongside plenty of graduates who might as well have not bothered.

There should be no shame in being more suited to following a craft or a trade, rather than a profession. But in this country we have gotten hold of the ridiculous notion that working in an office with a tie on makes you better than a man in overalls. I suspect it is a hang-over from the class system.

[mellison24]

I'm doing a Psychology degree at Uclan only to boost my CV, really. I'm hoping to join the police. I must say that I have a lot more respect for people in trades and crafts than in offices. The trades tend to involve the nitty gritty that softie, lahdidah office types can't handle.

[thenodrog]

When I was doing them it was assumed that anyone doing A-levels would go on to uni. The impression I got from teachers and the whole higher education system was that anyone who chose not to carry was considered a failure. This led to quite a lot of my peers who were just not cut out for university, feeling pressured to go on and then failing during their first year.

10yrs on and the ones I'm still in contact with are all getting on well with life doing jobs that do not require a degree to get into. No doubt working alongside plenty of graduates who might as well have not bothered.

There should be no shame in being more suited to following a craft or a trade, rather than a profession. But in this country we have gotten hold of the ridiculous notion that working in an office with a tie on makes you better than a man in overalls. I suspect it is a hang-over from the class system.

I agree. Daft thing is that the tradesmen are now big earners.

And that leads to another issue... For a number of reasons it's far easier to enrol at university than get an apprenticeship! The rules are so massively stacked against the employers that many simply find it not worthwhile to bother training anybody so most have found it better not to bother. Fear of the H&S, insurance, unsuitability and of course the 'Hoilett' syndrome where a newly qualified apprentice bguggers off asap he is qualified and takes core business away from his employer. It all constitutes a bloody ludicrous state of affairs that is unsuitable, insustainable and requiring of immediete reversal.

[bellamy11]

I must say that I have a lot more respect for people in trades and crafts than in offices. The trades tend to involve the nitty gritty that softie, lahdidah office types can't handle.

Wow - typecast much? Or is that just an attempt to 'fit in' with the way the consensus is going on this thread? I'm now totally convinced of your working class, blue collar ethos!

You could probably have gone to a more 'working class' school, mind. I'd wager there are a lot more softie, lahdidah types at QEGS than at Wilfs, Witton or any of the other local state schools.

[bellamy11]

I agree. Daft thing is that the tradesmen are now big earners.

And that leads to another issue... For a number of reasons it's far easier to enrol at university than get an apprenticeship! The rules are so massively stacked against the employers that many simply find it not worthwhile to bother training anybody so most have found it better not to bother. Fear of the H&S, insurance, unsuitability and of course the 'Hoilett' syndrome where a newly qualified apprentice bguggers off asap he is qualified and takes core business away from his employer. It all constitutes a bloody ludicrous state of affairs that is unsuitable, insustainable and requiring of immediete reversal.

Absolutely true. Worked at the job centre a few years ago and the difficulty some people had in getting on apprenticeships was mad. And this was before the major impact of the credit crunch etc. I actually think more people who were thinking of leaving education 'early' for apprentice schemes and the like will try to get on uni courses right now to try and ride out the recession and emerge to a job market which has hopefully recovered in 3/4 years time.

[mellison24]

Wow - typecast much? Or is that just an attempt to 'fit in' with the way the consensus is going on this thread? I'm now totally convinced of your working class, blue collar ethos!

You could probably have gone to a more 'working class' school, mind. I'd wager there are a lot more softie, lahdidah types at QEGS than at Wilfs, Witton or any of the other local state schools.

QEGS was my parents sacrifice. My mum didn't have a weekend until I left this april and my dad worked 16 hour days in order to afford going to QEGS. Just because I went to QEGS, doesn't make me posh, or even middle-class. Even if I end up in an office job, I'll have more respect for those in the trades. I worked with my dad over the summers, just so that he didn't have to put the extra hours in.

[maccy]

Sandwich courses that include a one year work placement are surely the best. You get to put the theoretical side into practice and most likely get your foot in the door at a good company. Definitely the way forward IMO and would enhance the value of a degree vastly.

As someone who has done a Sandwich course I can offer an alternative view! I completed a year out and got some fantastic experience that has given me a very strong CV. However after graduating this summer I cant get near a job. . .

I am very willing to start on the bottom, however because of my experience companies wont come near me as the think il jump ship as soon as another job comes up. So entry level jobs are out, and the jobs the next level up are so hard to come by and when they are people with much more experience than me just keep beating me to the job. Its so frustrating!

The killer is all of my friends who graduated a year earlier without experience are now sitting in very nice jobs!

I suppose this is more situational than anything as if the jobs market was in better shape I may not have a problem.

[unluckymorton]

True, but at what point would pride take over? You wouldn't want to be 30 years old and flipping burgers (unless you were also the manager).

So what would pride taking over result in? Worse than flipping burgers, the dole queue!

I'm 35yrs old and never been out of work. I can also safely say that I never will be either. I have earned an excellent CV by hard graft and climbing the ladder from apprentice to where I am now.

[bellamy11]

Just because I went to QEGS, doesn't make me posh, or even middle-class.

Exactly. You can't just typecast people based on where they went to school, just like you can't classify all people working in the trades as noble grafters and all those in offices as 'softie, lahdidah' types. All types of people work in all walks of life.

Even if I end up in an office job, I'll have more respect for those in the trades.

Why, out of interest?

[unluckymorton]

QEGS was my parents sacrifice. My mum didn't have a weekend until I left this april and my dad worked 16 hour days in order to afford going to QEGS. Just because I went to QEGS, doesn't make me posh, or even middle-class. Even if I end up in an office job, I'll have more respect for those in the trades. I worked with my dad over the summers, just so that he didn't have to put the extra hours in.

Why have more respect for people with trades? I just respect anybody who is willing to work for a living instead of living off the state. Trades are good to have but not everybody can be or are capable of being a tradesman. Just like tradesmen are what they are usually because they are not academically gifted as say university graduates.

[BiggusLaddus]

I suppose this is more situational than anything as if the jobs market was in better shape I may not have a problem.

Just bad luck to graduate in the middle of a nasty recession. I was lucky enough to be able to go back to the same company that I'd done my sandwich year with and I'm glad I did it. As I said further up the thread though, I've been keeping my eye on the jobs websites and talking to other people just in case the worst happens, and I can find nothing at my level (intermediate struct engineer) either. All of the jobs that I can see anywhere near me are either for chartered engineers with 10yrs + experience or the occaissonal new graduate post.

I know it is easy for me to say, but in your position I would just take the first job you can get hold of for now. If I was looking to employ someone I'd look more kindly on a candidate who had was able to show that had got off their backsides rather than waited for work to find them. Harsh as it sounds, a gap on your cv is just a gap and doesn't look any different whether you are looking for work or just sat around at home.

[mellison24]

Why, out of interest?

Why have more respect for people with trades?

Just because of my family, that's all. I see anybody in overalls and immediately think of every guy in my family (not in the dingle-way). I'll probably be the first not to enter a trade.

[thenodrog]

You could probably have gone to a more 'working class' school, mind. I'd wager there are a lot more softie, lahdidah types at QEGS than at Wilfs, Witton or any of the other local state schools.

Your slip is showing.

[stuwilky]

Probably the most pertinent sentence in this thread.

The continuing government drive to have more and more kids at university is one cause of youth unemployment because having a "degree" gives them false expectations. In a nutshell, there aren't enough good, well-paid jobs around to satisfy the thousands of graduates coming out of the colleges every year leading to many of them rejecting work that they consider beneath them.

The continuing government drive that includes capping Universities places available - and effectively fining Universities who over recruit through an actual reduction in per capita funding?

This has managed to reduce the number of UK/EU students attending universities (apart from those who deliberately set out to break the rules)

[thenodrog]

Why have more respect for people with trades? I just respect anybody who is willing to work for a living instead of living off the state. Trades are good to have but not everybody can be or are capable of being a tradesman. Just like tradesmen are what they are usually because they are not academically gifted as say university graduates.

Indeed. The term 'working class' is misleading and outdated nowadays.

[BiggusLaddus]

The continuing government drive that includes capping Universities places available - and effectively fining Universities who over recruit through an actual reduction in per capita funding?

This has managed to reduce the number of UK/EU students attending universities (apart from those who deliberately set out to break the rules)

You are not suggesting that it hasn't been deliberate government policy to massively expand the numbers of people going to university are you?

[thenodrog]

The continuing government drive that includes capping Universities places available - and effectively fining Universities who over recruit through an actual reduction in per capita funding?

This has managed to reduce the number of UK/EU students attending universities (apart from those who deliberately set out to break the rules)

Hmmm thats a quick turnaround.... Just a decade ago all Billy Liar and his chums ever said was that New Lab would create more university places. ( (circa 500,000 initially )to be paid out of the public purse.)

Why do new lab want kids to stay on at school until they are 18 if they are reducing Uni places? Dole queue fiddling perhaps?

btw...Now they've got em there and they realise they've over done it has it become unofficial policy to starve em out by witholding their student loans?

New Labour have been a short term success but a long term disaster in producing poorly thought out policies which are now biting em on the arse. To date Teflons got away with it whilst Broon is copping it big time. At least as we discovered yesterday the Europeans are not as gullible as our electorate whether they've been to uni or not! They wont have Bliar for love nor money as President.

[Anti-Dingle-Brigade]

As far as I'm aware Gord, the Government doesn't control the student loans - Student Finance England does. So it'd certainly be a weird conspiracy.

But you might be onto something in a way. The next Government, Labour or Tory, are expected to put tuition fees up to around 7,000 in the next year. Nothing like a bit of debt to battle with for the next 5-10 years.

[BuckyRover]

My debt when I left uni was 12,000. That was before the increase to 3k per year. 7k is absolute madness. That is a minimum of 33k debt when leaving uni.

Btw I have been working full time for five years (on a good wage for the last two) and my debt is still at 12k. The balance has only reduced very slightly due to my contributions only covering the interest. I don't even want to think what the interest will be on 33k.

It's absolutely shocking. All these decisions are being made by people who got a free education.

My sister got a 2:i in English at a red brick uni in June, she has been unemployed since then (apart from 4 weeks working as a temp in the NHS).

I really feel for her. If it rises to 7k I don't know what advice I would give to my youngest sister, it would be hard to recommend at that cost.

[Anti-Dingle-Brigade]

I'm reasonably confident I'll be able to find a job which pays a least a significant sum when I leave, although I know it may not be the job I want now. I'm probably going to stay at home for a year or two before getting my own place so my wages can go towards paying off my debt as soon as possible which should save me years of toiling around which would certainly be the case if I got my own place as soon as I graduated.

[mellison24]

My debt when I left uni was 12,000. That was before the increase to 3k per year. 7k is absolute madness. That is a minimum of 33k debt when leaving uni.

where's 33 come from?? My debt will be just short of 22k. or was that a typo on ur part?

[Anti-Dingle-Brigade]

Well without looking at anything specific, tuition this year was 3225, accommodation and everything else I'd say about 4-5k so that's about 9k or so. Next years tuiton fees 7k plus rent/everything else makes about another 10k so around 20k by the end of the 2nd year, after the third year add another 10k assuming costs don't rise again, 29k all in all.

Don't have any real figures to hand but he's closer than you are with his guess.

[cn174]

My debt when I left uni was 12,000. That was before the increase to 3k per year. 7k is absolute madness. That is a minimum of 33k debt when leaving uni.

You lucky sod, wish mine was that!!

Despite paying mine for 18 months, the thing has still gone up!

I think now more than ever you have to have to think if you really want/need to go to uni. Gone are the days when you could go to uni and walk into a job at the other end just because you have a degree. Worked out ok for me as I'm now working in the exact thing my masters is in.

My brother at some point looked into doing a degree in sports coaching, which after 3 years and much debt would've got him a qualification roughly equivilant to ones he already held, and would've give him access to the same jobs which he had without the qualifications.

[stuwilky]

You are not suggesting that it hasn't been deliberate government policy to massively expand the numbers of people going to university are you?

You are quite right. I am not.

What I am suggesting is that it was very quietly decided it was an utterly ridiculous idea to try and get 50% of the population to get a degree, it devalued proper degrees and gave rise to massive debt.

Hmmm thats a quick turnaround.... Just a decade ago all Billy Liar and his chums ever said was that New Lab would create more university places. ( (circa 500,000 initially )to be paid out of the public purse.)

Why do new lab want kids to stay on at school until they are 18 if they are reducing Uni places? Dole queue fiddling perhaps?

As for the last part Gord, I dont pretent to know the answer so can only second guess, they are attempting to revive 14+ education with the introduction of a semi decent level of training into "trades". its very interesting to note the full turnoaround over the last 30 years or so.

Well without looking at anything specific, tuition this year was 3225, accommodation and everything else I'd say about 4-5k so that's about 9k or so. Next years tuiton fees 7k plus rent/everything else makes about another 10k so around 20k by the end of the 2nd year, after the third year add another 10k assuming costs don't rise again, 29k all in all.

Don't have any real figures to hand but he's closer than you are with his guess.

As I understand it tuition fees will not change for those currently at University, so those enrolled now will continue to pay the £3k amount (increased year on year). In the same way they phased out grants, introduced £1k fees and subsequently £3k fees.

But on current prices for living....

Tuition - £7k

Accommodation - £3.5k (covers 42 weeks)

Living - £2.5k

Most of the students I come into contact with work, so some of that will be reduced (or more likely more spent...)

Not unreasonable to suggest that if this happens £40k worth of debt is easily achievable.

[Anti-Dingle-Brigade]

As I understand it tuition fees will not change for those currently at University, so those enrolled now will continue to pay the £3k amount (increased year on year). In the same way they phased out grants, introduced £1k fees and subsequently £3k fees.

But on current prices for living....

Tuition - £7k

Accommodation - £3.5k (covers 42 weeks)

Living - £2.5k

Most of the students I come into contact with work, so some of that will be reduced (or more likely more spent...)

Not unreasonable to suggest that if this happens £40k worth of debt is easily achievable.

I was told that it was as yet undecided whether it would apply to those currently enrolled at University due to the fact that we effectively reapply and readjust each year. For purely selfish reasons, I hope you are right though! Oh, your accommodation figure is a bit off (for a first year, probably more accurate for a second year). I'm paying just over 4.6k in Chester, which includes full board (bizarrely a dinner card costs under 200 quid for a whole year). I didn't have a choice in my accommodation though, and by the time I was allowed to change I had made friendships in my current place.

Long story short, it's costing a mint!