[Archived] 12 Months On From Ince

[Iceman]

Surely Sam knew he wouldn't grow when he signed him!

I just think Sam made a mistake, and is making excuses. His size is a lame excuse, because Lennon is just as small.

[bellamy11]

I just think Sam made a mistake, and is making excuses. His size is a lame excuse, because Lennon is just as small.

Is he as good as Lennon?

[Iceman]

Is he as good as Lennon?

I tell you what, Elrio is quick as lennon but can cross a ball. He is also a much more intelligent player, and knows whats happening around him. I dont think Lennon is that good, and imo Bentley is better with a better all round game than Lennon. Ince made a huge mistake, when he did not replace Bentley. Sam has basically, made the same mistake. Whether its down to finances, is another story. If you look at it, apart from a more stable feel with performances, the players at Sams disposal could have been better.

[Stuart]

EVH is a left winger isn't he? Seems a no brainer to play him instead of Diouf or even Pedersen.

Maybe he just isn't physical enough for the PL but like I said, he looked decent against Chelsea B - and worth a second look.

But then I don't see him on the training pitch every day!

[grizfoot]

Well if you look at the squad compared to 12 months ago I think the two are very similiar in quality. Taking a look at movements in and out of the club since Big Sam took over.

OUT

Santa Cruz - only just got fit and now on the Citeh bench, so can't really say we've missed him thus far.

Warnock - haven't really replaced him with an out and out LB but we funded the move for Chimbonda from his sale.

Derbyshire - still think it was a mistake to sell him honestly, had he played as many game as Di Santo as this season I'm sure he would have more goals.

Ooijer

Mokoena

Tugay (retired)

Villanueva (loan end)

Simpson (loan end)

IN

Givet - Arguably Big Sam's best piece of business.

Diouf - The jury is probably still out, seems to have got gradually worse over the time he's been here.

Chimbonda - As mentioned above as been a good buy and can play anywhere along the back, although he's undoubtley better at RB.

Nzonzi - Improving with every game he plays, excellent buy.

Salgado - Big earner who's only good enough for the bench, could have been a masterstroke but doesn't look like being one.

Jacobson - Steady player and a decent free transfer, but we've got plenty of RB options now.

Di Santo - Link-up play and work-rate can't be questioned but his composure as let him down.

Kalinic - Not had much game time but worringly still can't seem to find his first goal in the Premiership.

Van Heerden

Hoilett

Other Factors

- The ability to keep Dunn fit (well up until the Stoke game a few weeks back), played a number of games in a row which he never managed to achieve under Ince.

- Pedersen, seems to have been in decline for sometime now.

- Samba & Nelsen, I remember that game against Wigan well and these two looked totally all over the place. Under Sam they've both improved and played a large part in our recent clean sheets. Samba particular as improved ten-fold since this time last year, he's not got the experience and positonal awareness that he once lacked. Agree with the opening post in saying there's not many centre-backs in the legaue better than Big Chris at the moment.

- Mentality change, from the far to open style Ince employed to the more defensive but solid approach of Big Sam.

Now a comparison of the two teams from the last game in the Ince tenture, to Big Sam's most recent line-up against Hull.

Vs Wigan, 13th Decemeber 2008

Robinson

Ooijer, Samba, Nelsen, Warnock

Emerton, Andrews, Tugay, Pedersen

Derbyshire, Santa Cruz

Subs: Brown, McCarthy, Villanueva, Simpson, Treacy (used), Roberts (used), Dunn (used).

Vs Hull City, 12th Decemeber 2009

Robinson

Chimbonda, Samba, Nelsen, Givet

Emerton, Nzonzi, Grella, Holiett

McCarthy,

Di Santo

Subs: Brown, Pedersen, Diouf, Salgado, Andrews (used), Kalinic (used), Roberts (used).

In my opinion not a lot of difference in terms of quality in the teams but our present team as more strengthen in depth. That's not bad taking into account we probably sold our two prize-assets at the time in Santa Cruz and Warnock.

You've got to remember we did have a difficult run of games in the opening half of the 2008-09 season, who knows where we'd be now if Ince was still in charge (I'm guessing the large majority would say Championship). But what can't be questioned is that Big Sam did a brilliant job in rescuing the same team that was all over the place in that match against Wigan to a team that looked like a competent Premiership side for the second half of the season with a superb home record. Yes the beginning of this season as been a bit indifferent but we still find ourselves comfortable in mid-table without every really being in top form. On the basis we manage to bring in a new central midfield and a new striker (or the existing ones start firing) there's no reason why we can't make the top half this season. That in itself would be phenomenal turn around from the relegation bound shambles of a team we saw face Wigan just 12 months ago.

[Mattyblue]

But all in all he’s doing ok, but the man is never going to be a fans favourite.

Well he's a favourite of mine and a lot of others besides, great manager for a club like Rovers, good signings, looks like he's sorted the defence out and the team is improving week on week.

This 'long ball' malarky is largely a myth, people seem to forget Saint Mark's last season in charge, 'hoofing it' seemed to be the game plan half the time.

then when you consider the near Armageddon of Ince, thank the Lord he came in when he did.

Doing a superb job, long may he reign.

[DE.]

I dont think Allardyce tries to have an over the top relationship with the fans, but then again which manager does, except the ones that are just playing the fans. People like O'Neill running on the touchline like a little badger come to mind.

Rafa comes to mind. His various antics (recently singing/quoting YNWA ) as of late have endeared him to Liverpool fans to the point where he seems to be able to do anything without being blamed. If anything his stock seems to go up in their eyes with every mistake he makes

[Miker]

Well he's a favourite of mine and a lot of others besides, great manager for a club like Rovers, good signings, looks like he's sorted the defence out and the team is improving week on week.

This 'long ball' malarky is largely a myth, people seem to forget Saint Mark's last season in charge, 'hoofing it' seemed to be the game plan half the time.

then when you consider the near Armageddon of Ince, thank the Lord he came in when he did.

Doing a superb job, long may he reign.

Agreed, very pleased with the progress he's made and I can only see it improving. He makes intelligent signings and decisions, so I've been quite impressed with him so far and would like him to continue his reign.

[thenodrog]

Now a comparison of the two teams from the last game in the Ince tenture, to Big Sam's most recent line-up against Hull.

Vs Wigan, 13th Decemeber 2008

Robinson

Ooijer, Samba, Nelsen, Warnock

Emerton, Andrews, Tugay, Pedersen

Derbyshire, Santa Cruz

Subs: Brown, McCarthy, Villanueva, Simpson, Treacy (used), Roberts (used), Dunn (used).

Vs Hull City, 12th Decemeber 2009

Robinson

Chimbonda, Samba, Nelsen, Givet

Emerton, Nzonzi, Grella, Holiett

McCarthy,

Di Santo

Subs: Brown, Pedersen, Diouf, Salgado, Andrews (used), Kalinic (used), Roberts (used).

In my opinion not a lot of difference in terms of quality in the teams but our present team as more strengthen in depth. That's not bad taking into account we probably sold our two prize-assets at the time in Santa Cruz and Warnock.

Allardyces declared intention is to have a smaller squad with fewer but better players many of whom can play in a variety of positions as injury / suspension require. This cannot be fully achieved until some of the players contracts run out or they can be persuaded to leave whereupon he'll be able to sign more of his preferred types.

Unfortunately a fact of Prem football is that the average player contract is longer than the average managerial tenure.

[Miker]

I'm a bit surprised people are saying we were a "competent" side after Sam took over. Besides the first few games, I thought we were god awful for the rest of the season and were much improved in our first few games this season against Man City and Sunderland, despite the losses.

So I think we're improving, but by no means do I think we immediately looked significantly better as soon as the change of manager was done. I think people just look at Sam's first few games and the 10 (or was it 11?) match losing streak we had under Ince before he was sacked and their opinion of how much better we became is slightly skewed. That's my opinion though.

[47er]

Well he's a favourite of mine and a lot of others besides, great manager for a club like Rovers, good signings, looks like he's sorted the defence out and the team is improving week on week.

This 'long ball' malarky is largely a myth, people seem to forget Saint Mark's last season in charge, 'hoofing it' seemed to be the game plan half the time.

then when you consider the near Armageddon of Ince, thank the Lord he came in when he did.

Doing a superb job, long may he reign.

Well said! Absolutely impossible to find a manager more suitably credentialed and experienced to look after the sort of club we are.

[trueblue]

Welcome back Rev!!!!

We thought you may have lobbed your PC in the canal or something

See ya on the concourse v Spuds mate

[Hughesy]

I like what Sam is doing.....

Yes its not always perfect, and not necessarily always pretty to the eye - although the usual media junk about long ball footy is no more present at Rovers than it is at half of the premier league.

He has made us much more solid, and much more focused on the job. Yes we had some poor performances against the BIG 4 but to be honest I think in some of the games it was obvious we really wasnt that bothered anyway. I.e. Liverpool away when we had a depleted team, Arsernal away - both Centre backs out, Chelsea away - Both Centre backs out.....we have now settled our team and shown Chelsea & Liverpool that we still no how to mix it with the big boys and that give us abit more time and we will become even harder to beat.

25 home games, 2 losses says it all......

Semi Final of the cup coming up, progressing against a team that everyone expected us to get wiped accross the floor with.

Of his signings - how many have been failures? Id say the jury is still out on Di Santo, Kalinic, Van Herden & Salgado but I wouldnt say any of them have failed.......Some superb bits of business such as Givet, Chimbonda & NZonzi.

[CrazyIvan]

12 months on? We're in a better, stronger position than we were then. We're sitting mid-table looking to improve our away form and maintain our home form. 12 months ago we were looking up at the rest of the table and fighting to stay in this league with a fair old deficit of points to the next team. The players have improved in terms of form (in general) and we have some exciting prospects playing for us. The manager has made some errors of judgement in his interviews occasionally but the one thing I appreciate is his honesty. Is the garden all rosy? No, we still need a set of owners that could invest a bit of money without turning us into a circus like City or a joke like Liverpool.

[Alan75]

I like what Sam is doing.....

Are you his love child

[Blue blood]

I like what Sam is doing.....

Yes its not always perfect, and not necessarily always pretty to the eye - although the usual media junk about long ball footy is no more present at Rovers than it is at half of the premier league.

He has made us much more solid, and much more focused on the job. Yes we had some poor performances against the BIG 4 but to be honest I think in some of the games it was obvious we really wasnt that bothered anyway. I.e. Liverpool away when we had a depleted team, Arsernal away - both Centre backs out, Chelsea away - Both Centre backs out.....we have now settled our team and shown Chelsea & Liverpool that we still no how to mix it with the big boys and that give us abit more time and we will become even harder to beat.

25 home games, 2 losses says it all......

Semi Final of the cup coming up, progressing against a team that everyone expected us to get wiped accross the floor with.

Of his signings - how many have been failures? Id say the jury is still out on Di Santo, Kalinic, Van Herden & Salgado but I wouldnt say any of them have failed.......Some superb bits of business such as Givet, Chimbonda & NZonzi.

I agree with most of what you say, apart from this bit. I'd say Salgado is a failure. His huge wages are a massive drain on resources and he simply isn't needed. When fit he's not first choice at rb, Chimbonda is, and Jacobsen is a younger, cheaper replacement who has done well when he has played. This makes Salgado utterly unnecessary, and an expensive unnecessary to boot.

I'd also say his away record is very poor, which you overlook, although there have been signs that this is turning round - most of Arsenal away, plus the Bolton and Hull away games. So whilst it's not progressing as quickly as I'd like on that front, or more to the point as quickly as it should imo, there are signs for improvement so even in a negative aspect of Sam's tenature there is room for optimism.

No, the only other complaint from me is that when we play badly it's amongst the worst stuff I've ever seen. All the more frustrating as we are hard to beat, can play well etc. but when we play badly it seems harder to stomach/watch than in previous years.

[RevidgeBlue]

Well on tonight's evidence we're not THAT much better off than we were 12 months ago.

If memory serves me correctly we also amassed something like 8 points from Sam's first four games in charge.

It will be interesting (and potentially worrying) to see where we are after 21 games.

[DE.]

If we beat Spurs then much of the anger from tonight will be released. Under Ince our home AND away form was dire, at least at the moment we have our home form to cling on to...

Saturday's match is pretty big, now.

[philipl]

Ince was an absolute disaster. We were going to be relegated and stuffed full of MK Dons players and mates like Fowler if he had his own way. Oh, and we'd be playing pub football hungover from team-bonding benders (and about as physically fit).

Sam knows how to keep us up but I feel fully justified in having been one of the Facebook 2000.

Tonight showed just how mediocre he is. That was not football the way Blackburn folk are used to seeing Rovers play.

Unfortunately one horrendous decision has lead to a second deeply sub-optimal reaction appointment. Sam is son of Ince- neither of them should have been selected but Ince put the club into such a dire situation, we had virtually no choice.

[ABBEY]

If we beat Spurs then much of the anger from tonight will be released. Under Ince our home AND away form was dire, at least at the moment we have our home form to cling on to...

Saturday's match is pretty big, now.

one home defeat is dickies meadow.

[PAFELL]

Ince was an absolute disaster. We were going to be relegated and stuffed full of MK Dons players and mates like Fowler if he had his own way. Oh, and we'd be playing pub football hungover from team-bonding benders (and about as physically fit).

Sam knows how to keep us up but I feel fully justified in having been one of the Facebook 2000.

Tonight showed just how mediocre he is. That was not football the way Blackburn folk are used to seeing Rovers play.

Unfortunately one horrendous decision has lead to a second deeply sub-optimal reaction appointment. Sam is son of Ince- neither of them should have been selected but Ince put the club into such a dire situation, we had virtually no choice.

Rovers tonight battled against an in form team. No I am not happy with the result and daft goals given away. Survival is Rovers aim this season - long for better, but reality says different.

[Amo]

Well on tonight's evidence we're not THAT much better off than we were 12 months ago.

If memory serves me correctly we also amassed something like 8 points from Sam's first four games in charge.

It will be interesting (and potentially worrying) to see where we are after 21 games.

You're a bad omen.

[47er]

When Ince left we were firmly in the relegation zone---5 points clear of safety. Now we are 12th but obviously not without our problems. But lets not lose perspective. This was a stupid thread in the first place.

[Exiled in Toronto]

Ince was an absolute disaster. We were going to be relegated and stuffed full of MK Dons players and mates like Fowler if he had his own way. Oh, and we'd be playing pub football hungover from team-bonding benders (and about as physically fit).

Sam knows how to keep us up but I feel fully justified in having been one of the Facebook 2000.

Tonight showed just how mediocre he is. That was not football the way Blackburn folk are used to seeing Rovers play.

Unfortunately one horrendous decision has lead to a second deeply sub-optimal reaction appointment. Sam is son of Ince- neither of them should have been selected but Ince put the club into such a dire situation, we had virtually no choice.

Sums up how I feel.

Here's what I don't understand. Ince was completely out of his depth; Sam comes with a track record that, on paper, puts him light years ahead, yet, while we are somewhat improved over this time last year, nothing like as much as I thought we would be. A year in, we are 6 points better off, an improvement but not a huge one. Last year that would have put us 1 point out of the bottom three, and it's only 3 points off this year.

If Ince was so bad, and he was, then why hasn't a manager of Allardyce's undoubted pedigree fashioned a much bigger improvement?

I've been thinking back over the last 40 years and every manager who achieved something here had made a huge improvement after a year in the job, not just a handful of points. Lee took a midtable nothing team and won promotion a year later. Kendall won promotion and nearly repeated the trick. Kenny took us up. Souey took us up. All massive turnarounds. Allardyce's achievements are more like those of McKay and Smith; we're better after a year, but not massively so.

Tonight's game though was bad, really bad. 4 crap players brought back in and all were as crap as we knew they would be. I have no idea who will start up front for us from one week to the next. Not what I expected after a year

[thenodrog]

Well on tonight's evidence we're not THAT much better off than we were 12 months ago.

If memory serves me correctly we also amassed something like 8 points from Sam's first four games in charge.

It will be interesting (and potentially worrying) to see where we are after 21 games.

Don't move the goalposts Simon......... or you'll be setting Paul off. Rem the topic title is 12 months on from Ince and in that context we are 50% better off in points.

Yesterday was depressing brought about mainly by injuries to our injury prone midfield. No team that plays with just one Prem quality player in midfield is ever going to win a match are they? I'd wager that we'd have got a result of some sort if our first team were playing last night but their brittle bones or whatever have given up on them again. Once the midfield is reduced to disinterested players the rest of the team becomes dispirited and exasperrated and the only route forward is route 1 and we all know by now that Roberts cannot cut it with route 1 play. He cannot......

a. head a ball.

b. play any sort of a game with his back to goal.

c. control a wet sandbag.

and now it seems that he can't

d turn and run with the ball either.

In reallity our ponies one trick has departed from him and he's now officially a donkey, and on last nights showing I think it's a dead one!

Time to 'Drop the Dead Donkey'.