[Archived] Rothschilds

[JAL]

Think the trust are doing a very good job at Rovers, how anyone can say Rovers dont have any money with a wage bill of over £45m beggers belief.

Already the club has achieved a Carling cup semi final place, the youth team are going to have a very good season, and premiership status for another season is almost guaranteed.

Crowds are up, if not income from this, but hey, this is Blackburn.

In such difficult financial times the club is being managed very well, OK we all want more, but collectively can we possibly achieve more thats a big challenge. Surely a key is to watch clubs go bust around us and plunder them when that opportunity arises.

Selling the club to load more debt onto the club for some shark to take us into the abyss isnt the way forward at least for now.

[PAFELL]

Hi everyone, long time reader of the forum first time poster.

Could possible reasons for the preference of the former Birmingham owners for West Ham not be because the value of area / land in which Upton Park is situated will increase dramitically after the regeneration of the area due to the Olympics?

Also as daft as it sounds i have seen a few quotes from Gold and Sullivan saying that they are looking for a southern club due to travelling times to and from work. Thats why they are also looking at Charlton. I can see why West Ham would be attractive to them.

When I started this topic, it was about Rothschilds. If they were so good at what they do, how come they haven't managed to sell rovers yet. It was not about Golds etc - apart from I noticed Rothschilds have had some involvement in putting west ham and Golds together - But how long have Rothschilds been trying to find a buyer for Rovers? Is it now not in Rovers interst to employ somebody else to sell the club - after all Rothschild so called super bank has failed.

[PAFELL]

Think the trust are doing a very good job at Rovers, how anyone can say Rovers dont have any money with a wage bill of over £45m beggers belief.

Already the club has achieved a Carling cup semi final place, the youth team are going to have a very good season, and premiership status for another season is almost guaranteed.

Crowds are up, if not income from this, but hey, this is Blackburn.

In such difficult financial times the club is being managed very well, OK we all want more, but collectively can we possibly achieve more thats a big challenge. Surely a key is to watch clubs go bust around us and plunder them when that opportunity arises.

Selling the club to load more debt onto the club for some shark to take us into the abyss isnt the way forward at least for now.

Good post, one which I suggest nobody can argue about. Agreed that the Trustees have been very good for Rovers - yes we want more. More the pity that for the sake of the memory of Jack Walker nothing can be done to persuade the current owners to continue owning the club and to help financially a little more. I believe Rovers have a pretty good young squad and with a few more additions could push higher up the table - that is where survival is and better chance of eventually somebody buying the club. But hard to invest in a club that often battles with relegation more than the top spots.

[stuwilky]

When I started this topic, it was about Rothschilds. If they were so good at what they do, how come they haven't managed to sell rovers yet. It was not about Golds etc - apart from I noticed Rothschilds have had some involvement in putting west ham and Golds together - But how long have Rothschilds been trying to find a buyer for Rovers? Is it now not in Rovers interst to employ somebody else to sell the club - after all Rothschild so called super bank has failed.

You mentioned the "Golds" interest in WEst Ham and why they have been steered there - that has been explained to you.

How long have the bankrupt Icelandic lot been trying to sell West Ham, via Rothschilds? Is it that there is no interest currently in chucking money down the drain? Any idiot can see West Ham have more "value" than Rovers. But not on the football front.

[PAFELL]

You mentioned the "Golds" interest in WEst Ham and why they have been steered there - that has been explained to you.

How long have the bankrupt Icelandic lot been trying to sell West Ham, via Rothschilds? Is it that there is no interest currently in chucking money down the drain? Any idiot can see West Ham have more "value" than Rovers. But not on the football front.

Fully understand why Golds and maybe others would be interested in investing in west ham, for the reasons you and others have said. But all the same I am wondering if Rothschilds are doing enough to sell Rovers. Are Notts County, Pompey more attractive clubs than Rovers? Ok thankfully those that bought pompey stayed well clear of Rovers.

[only2garners]

Yeah I can see that - thanks, however it still doesnt make any sense. Liverpool are £350m in debt, need about £200m for a new stadium because they cant extend and then would need another £100-200m spending to make them title winning material.

Rovers would need to clear debts of £20m, build up the stadium if needed and then buy the players........FAR less cost...so it doesnt add up.

I'm not clear about the point you're making here. Liverpool are currently a financial basket case who could go into freefall if they don't finish 4th this season. BUT, they are one of only 2 clubs in England with a significant worldwide profile. Someone who wants to buy success and has shedloads of money could wipe their debt, build a stadium to increase revenue and a team to win things and they could start generating revenues only exceeded by United and Real Madrid.

Clearly that same person could buy football success at Rovers for less outlay but it would be dead money. Beyond the revenue generated by being in the Premier League there is little or no financial upside to buying Rovers for anyone. The only place where a new owner could save any serious amount of money at Rovers would be by reducing the wage bill - do that to any degree and you will be staring relegation in the face pretty quickly. The only way of generating more money would be by increasing ticket prices - that would lead to a big drop in attendances but might raise a bit more money. But we would be playing in front of Wigan sized crowds with lack of atmosphere which would also likely impact on the team's performances. the hard truth is that there is no spare value left to squeeze out of Rovers. Perversely the very thing that has kept us in the Premier league for so long, excellent club management, makes it that much more difficult for us to be sold.

A badly run club with a big supporter base in a wealthy area or a well run club with a limited supporter base in a poor area - which would you buy, unless you were a passionate supporter? We were lucky in that we had the best with the money for a while - it's extremely unlikely that we're going to get another any time soon.

[philipl]

Guys, 70%+ of all football club ssales have ended in total disaster.

The conditions Rothschilds are labouring under is to make sure that the sale of Rovers is not a similar disaster.

The blokes flogging West Ham and Pompey etc etc don't give a hoot so long as they get out with their financial skin somewhat intact.

Notts County is a case in point- they were owned by a supporters' trust- the ideal form of ownership you would think. But they, Sven and everyone else got totally hoodwinked.

[mickbrown]

I am not sure what you lot expect from owners but as a West Ham supporter I would be very happy to be in your position.

If we go down under the current owners we will be in administration and no doubt be in league 1 within a couple of years.

Being a rich mans play toy is not all its cracked up to be, it will be interesting what happens to Chelsea and Man City when they need a change of ownership not to mention Liverpool......

[only2garners]

I am not sure what you lot expect from owners but as a West Ham supporter I would be very happy to be in your position.

If we go down under the current owners we will be in administration and no doubt be in league 1 within a couple of years.

Being a rich mans play toy is not all its cracked up to be, it will be interesting what happens to Chelsea and Man City when they need a change of ownership not to mention Liverpool......

I for one am Mick. I think a number of our fans have been spoilt by having had the perfect owner for a few years - an out and out fan with enough money to make a difference. They now think that we should be able to find someone else to replace Jack. Given that people like Jack have been as rare as hens' teeth in the whole history of football is pretty unlikely that we're going to find two. West Ham should have a better chance than Rovers of finding the perfect owner given you're based pretty close to a lot of people who have been/are making serious money in the City. On the other hand you're also in the perfect location for some of the chancers who made money out of cheap unsupportable debt which has now gone pear shaped.

[philipl]

Actually Rovers have been fortunate to find two Jack Walkers- the double Championship-winning side before WW1 was similarly backed by a local supporter made good.

Mick Brown's points are very well made. We are extremely fortunate that the Walker legacy blocked both Dan the Man and Chris Ronnie or we'd be headed where the sun don't shine by now.

[broadsword]

Wasn't Chris Ronnie nicked for dodgy share dealing?

Haven't heard anything more of the mudhut millionaire, probably a good thing.

Presumably the conditions of jack's will state that the board have to do due diligence, and was I right about the loan capital?

[only2garners]

Actually Rovers have been fortunate to find two Jack Walkers- the double Championship-winning side before WW1 was similarly backed by a local supporter made good.

Fair point Philip - I'll adjust my comment to once every 100 years or so then. Still a while before the next one's due then...

[Hughesy]

Liverpool are currently a financial basket case who could go into freefall if they don't finish 4th this season. BUT, they are one of only 2 clubs in England with a significant worldwide profile. Someone who wants to buy success and has shedloads of money could wipe their debt, build a stadium to increase revenue and a team to win things and they could start generating revenues only exceeded by United and Real Madrid.

Clearly that same person could buy football success at Rovers for less outlay but it would be dead money. Beyond the revenue generated by being in the Premier League there is little or no financial upside to buying Rovers for anyone. The only place where a new owner could save any serious amount of money at Rovers would be by reducing the wage bill - do that to any degree and you will be staring relegation in the face pretty quickly. The only way of generating more money would be by increasing ticket prices - that would lead to a big drop in attendances but might raise a bit more money.

Im sorry but if someone started pumping £300m into Rovers playing side then the whole football world changes!!

Should they win the league then there is massive extra TV income, placing money & also Champions league football. The better the clubs do, the more games we compete in and the more tickets that are sold, more TV money again and glory hunting fans start joining. We also gain fans over-seas if we get success, thats all they want abroad - success breeds more fans....

Its a no brainer for me. If I had £350m to invest in football and Im not a fan of either club - I know which id be choosing. Liverpool Costs you £300m more than Rovers (after debts) - just to be debt free!! Thats without buying a single player or building a stadium.....

[sparkspakespoke]

Im sorry but if someone started pumping £300m into Rovers playing side then the whole football world changes!!

Should they win the league then there is massive extra TV income, placing money & also Champions league football. The better the clubs do, the more games we compete in and the more tickets that are sold, more TV money again and glory hunting fans start joining. We also gain fans over-seas if we get success, thats all they want abroad - success breeds more fans....

Its a no brainer for me. If I had £350m to invest in football and Im not a fan of either club - I know which id be choosing. Liverpool Costs you £300m more than Rovers (after debts) - just to be debt free!! Thats without buying a single player or building a stadium.....

But the whole world doesnt change. We have won the league more recently than Liverpool but it makes no difference. No ammount of money will give us a bigger fan base, reputation or potential income. If you cant see what the appeal of buying a club like Liverpool is over us then it really is a no brainer.

[only2garners]

Im sorry but if someone started pumping £300m into Rovers playing side then the whole football world changes!!

Should they win the league then there is massive extra TV income, placing money & also Champions league football. The better the clubs do, the more games we compete in and the more tickets that are sold, more TV money again and glory hunting fans start joining. We also gain fans over-seas if we get success, thats all they want abroad - success breeds more fans....

Its a no brainer for me. If I had £350m to invest in football and Im not a fan of either club - I know which id be choosing. Liverpool Costs you £300m more than Rovers (after debts) - just to be debt free!! Thats without buying a single player or building a stadium.....

It didn't work last time though did it? And that was when you didn't need £300m. The extra income you talk about is not massive compared to that sort of investment. How much has Abramovich put into Chelsea? They have also won the league and there is no real sign that they are much more of a world brand than before. And they are still a long way from breaking even.

[Hughesy]

We missed our opportunity....we didnt push on when we should of....We had a chance to snap up Dugarry & Zidane but we decided to wait and missed out....had we carried on for 2 or 3 years then I have no doubt that Ewood Park would be complete with a 40k stadium...and we would be in a much better financial position.

To buy Liverpool & clear debts will cost you £350m...Rovers £60m - So thats £290m more......Next up Liverpool want a new Stadium - So thats £250m to sort out....So you have spent £540m more just to buy Liverpool, clear debts & get a new flashy stadium - but still the same poor side. At Rovers we dont need to buy land to build - we can already expand if necessary...we wouldnt require a move.

Now if you spent £290m on players - is it likely we would have a much stronger team that Liverpool? Hell we made them look average with our current team just 2 weeks ago! There are 3 teams already better than the scousers....with City, Villa & Spurs all more flush and threatening their position.....before too long Liverpool's European income & high league placings money could dry up.....Leaving them in a difficult position and having to get rid of their stars & reduce wages.

If I was the business man with mega money to pump into football then I know where my cash would go - where is your ambition!

[sparkspakespoke]

Well you would not be making a business decsion if you did that because your money would go down the pan.

What about Chelsea? Like Garners mentioned they have pushed on have they not? Winning the league twice always in the champions league yet they can still not turn a profit. Despite being in centralLondon with a far greater population of fans in the area.

Money cant buy the large fan base or the reputation or worldwide regognition that can lead to a brand. Those are built up over years and years and also through the luck of location.

[mickbrown]

Money cant buy the large fan base or the reputation or worldwide regognition that can lead to a brand. Those are built up over years and years and also through the luck of location.

Very true, unfortunately for you rovers fans with the local population you will never get the income stream coming through the gates. Don't forget london clubs charge 2 or 3 times what you charge at Ewood.

[Hughesy]

Success must bring more fans......Yes I know we redeveloped but the demand was on the increase with more and more uccess. Hence the need to plan for a 40,000 stadium!

92/93 - 16,248

93/94 - 17,418

94/95 - 25,272

95/96 - 27,714

96/97 - 24,947

Jeez I wish Uncle Jack was still here!

[sparkspakespoke]

Me too Hughsey, me too.

[thenodrog]

They stated their intention of buying west Ham on tv as soon as before they sold Brum. East End boys going home and buying his local club was how whichever one of it was put it. So it's not that Rothschilds have found a buyer, rather that they have handled the sale to a buyer who only wanted West Ham.

Correct. That Sullivans been gobbing off about buying into WHU for years. By his own admission traipsing up and down the M6 was a drag.

[broadsword]

Success must bring more fans......Yes I know we redeveloped but the demand was on the increase with more and more uccess. Hence the need to plan for a 40,000 stadium!

92/93 - 16,248

93/94 - 17,418

94/95 - 25,272

95/96 - 27,714

96/97 - 24,947

Jeez I wish Uncle Jack was still here!

But Uncle Jack wanted the club to be self-sufficient in the end ... even if we sold out a 40k stadium every week we'd still be losing money. It seemed to me that Jack was quite disappointed that his investment in Rovers wasn't matched by income into the club. I seem to remember him saying something like: "It's time for some other bugger to put his money in."

Just because you say more money must bring more fans, and to an extent that is true, but there is an upper limit and given the location and "brand value" of Blackburn Rovers, that upper limit is lower than at most other Premier League clubs. another example: Liverpool, losing money hand over fist, they need to lay out cash to move to a new stadium just in the hope of breaking even.

Investing in a football club, particularly at the top level is a fool's game.

Even if we were in the top four, our "brand value" overseas would be distinctly limited compared to the other "big clubs".

I wish that that wasn't the case, but it's a sad fact in life that wishful thinking doesn't make your wishes come true.

The only way out is if we got some Blackburn tart to marry a Texan oil billionaire in his dotage, got her to shag him to death and give half of his estate to us. But even then, the money would eventually run out (always making losses, see?) and we'd be back where we are now.

[Hughesy]

Very little money in there when Jack was pumping in his cash. Now we are talking £50m for winning the league & £15m for just being in the group stages of the Champs league......

I like the tart idea though.......Any volunteers.....Abbey!

[broadsword]

Very little money in there when Jack was pumping in his cash. Now we are talking £50m for winning the league & £15m for just being in the group stages of the Champs league......

It hasn't put Man Utd or Chelsea in the black though, eh?

If I was to offer you an actual white elephant that produced golden ###### to the value of £500 a year, would you be interested?

If I then told you that you'd have to spend £2000 a year feeding him murray mints and creme eggs by the barrel, would you still be interested?

[Hughesy]

What was United's debt prior to the glazers buying them?