[Archived] Rothschilds

[broadsword]

Fair point, it wasn't anything.

so you're saying we could be a comparable operation to Man Utd?

[Hughesy]

Fair point, it wasn't anything.

so you're saying we could be a comparable operation to Man Utd?

No because they are a world-wide brand...Had United not been bought out by Glazers they would have £60m a season to spend on new players!

We could however become a decent club to own if done the right way with the funds to match....I just dont see what £550m gets you with Liverpool other than a poor team in a shiny new stadium!

[only2garners]

No because they are a world-wide brand...Had United not been bought out by Glazers they would have £60m a season to spend on new players!

We could however become a decent club to own if done the right way with the funds to match....I just dont see what £550m gets you with Liverpool other than a poor team in a shiny new stadium!

It gets you the chance to generate large revenues, much bigger than we could ever dream of. If you spent it on Rovers you may get some comparative short term success but unless you could keep investing at the same sort of level it would drop off pretty quickly. And of course there are plenty of examples of people spending a lot of money and getting little or no success.

[Guest Kamy100]

I just dont see what £550m gets you with Liverpool other than a poor team in a shiny new stadium!

You get a brand that has the potential of growth. Liverpool have a world wide brand image and a history of success. As an investor you are more likely to get a return for your investment (be it trophies/potential return on investment), your catchment area is far far greater than what Rovers could ever hope to offer. A billionaire would never ever consider buying Rovers, we simply cannot compete with the big city clubs, they are far more attractive propositions to potential investors.

[Iceman]

Appreciate the fact, that we still an EPL club. I would rather suffer having no money, than having to suffer with oweners who will destroy the club.

[Guest Kamy100]

Appreciate the fact, that we still an EPL club. I would rather suffer having no money, than having to suffer with oweners who will destroy the club.

Exactly. I love Rovers the way they are, we may not have a bundle of cash but we get by. Just look at what has happened to Portsmouth/West Ham.

[Eddie]

You get a brand that has the potential of growth. Liverpool have a world wide brand image and a history of success. As an investor you are more likely to get a return for your investment (be it trophies/potential return on investment), your catchment area is far far greater than what Rovers could ever hope to offer. A billionaire would never ever consider buying Rovers, we simply cannot compete with the big city clubs, they are far more attractive propositions to potential investors.

Whilst I am no expert on investment of this sort, or of any sort really, it still amazes me. I totally understand that logic and, relative to football, Liverpool is the safer and normal investment; having said that, pumping 550 million into Rovers would buy you the club, pay off any debts and still leave a good 450 million to spend on the staff and improving the brand. That's a sizeable bit of change right there and it would, in the right hands, make us top 4 contenders if spent in a period of two seasons (look at City).

For a club that already has the faciilities, bar perhaps slight stadium improvements, has a history in the league and reasonable support, we make a very good investment proposition if you are really looking at pumping 500-750 million into a football club. I understand why people don't, but I also don't understand why we appear to be such a hard sell. Clearly there are quite a few out there interested in buying, most of them I wouldn't want to touch us, but you would have thought that a decent salesman would drum up some interest.

[Claytons Left Boot]

Being a rich mans play toy is not all its cracked up to be, it will be interesting what happens to Chelsea and Man City when they need a change of ownership not to mention Liverpool......

You've hit the nail on the head there Mick - 'rich man's play toy.'

All this talk about investors? Investors in the true sense of the word don't put money into a football club and make a return. I don't think there is one football club in Great Britain that's debt free and making a profit. I don't think there is one club in the Premier League that regularly turns out profits that can sustain it's level of borrowing.

When on earth do the Middle East guys at Man City hope to start receiving some sort of dividend on their massive lay out. The only time they will have smiles on their faces (in a financial sense) is when they sell, if they can find anyone daft enough to buy. Same goes for Chelsea, Portsmouth, Liverpool and the rest of them.

The classic rich man's play toy is Abramovich and Chelsea. Fair play to him, he's got the money and doesn't seem to mind ploughing it in (although even here it is slowing down). As for the rest - and especially at Liverpool - I bet the owners (even with their financial clout) never realised just what a bottomless pit it takes to make sod all.

We will be a lot better at BRFC leaving things just as they are, however hard that may appear to some.

[Hughesy]

Liverpool is the safer and normal investment; having said that, pumping 550 million into Rovers would buy you the club, pay off any debts and still leave a good 450 million to spend on the staff and improving the brand. That's a sizeable bit of change right there and it would, in the right hands, make us top 4 contenders if spent in a period of two seasons (look at City).

For a club that already has the faciilities, bar perhaps slight stadium improvements, has a history in the league and reasonable support, we make a very good investment proposition if you are really looking at pumping 500-750 million into a football club.

Spot on Eddie - thats how I was trying to say it!

Anyway its about time some of us got making some serious cash and then we can invest in our club....Starting with the Euro-millions tomorrow night!!

[Eddie]

Seeing as the Liverpool investors came in with experience from other sports I'm sure that they knew what they were getting into. I'm sure that they expected better results, but that's what makes them so suited to Liverpool.

[only2garners]

Whilst I am no expert on investment of this sort, or of any sort really, it still amazes me. I totally understand that logic and, relative to football, Liverpool is the safer and normal investment; having said that, pumping 550 million into Rovers would buy you the club, pay off any debts and still leave a good 450 million to spend on the staff and improving the brand. That's a sizeable bit of change right there and it would, in the right hands, make us top 4 contenders if spent in a period of two seasons (look at City).

For a club that already has the faciilities, bar perhaps slight stadium improvements, has a history in the league and reasonable support, we make a very good investment proposition if you are really looking at pumping 500-750 million into a football club. I understand why people don't, but I also don't understand why we appear to be such a hard sell. Clearly there are quite a few out there interested in buying, most of them I wouldn't want to touch us, but you would have thought that a decent salesman would drum up some interest.

That's the point I made above - you could buy some short term success and maybe even win something but even those sums won't buy you a permanent place at the top - you would have to keep investing at a level completely unsustainable commercially.

[philipl]

The debts plus need for existing owners to be prised out plus need for new cash at Liverpool and Man U make both of them basket cases in terms of anyone buying and expecting a return on their outlay.

The only hope a buyer would have of covering themselves would be to find someone as bonkers as they are willing to tie up over a billion (Mancs), at least £600m with all the fun of the scousers working on a mega-building project chucked in (Liverpool) for the duration of their involvement.

The problem for both Mancs and Liverpol is that potential buyers are looking at currently distressed owners and are playing a massive game of dare. How distressed can the current Yanks get before their distress seriously harms the clubs and their global brands and who is going to blink first over price which is massively complicated by incredibly complex debt instruments now.

West Ham is a similar game of dare except with less complex debt as the owners amount to a bunch of liquidators but with everyone scrapping in a barrel heading towards the Niagra Falls of relegation and the January transfer window the last realistic chance to do anything about it. Gold and Sullivan played the big drop and bounce back at Brum so I guess they will be pretty relaxed about letting the Icelanders joining the Maid of the Mist in the plunge pool.

[brightonrover]

It's got to be remembered that most of those involved in buying football clubs aren't doing it to make money but to feed their own ego(s)so buying a club like Liverpool, Chelsea or United fits that bill rather than say Blackburn or Bolton.

It's about getting their mug on the telly via the most media covered football league in the world rather than making a lot of cash.

It's also becoming pretty obvious that most of the recent dodgy buyers are only getting the money to buy the clubs or purchase players by borrowing cash that becomes part of the debt - little (if any) of their own money is being invested.

[philipl]

It's got to be remembered that most of those involved in buying football clubs aren't doing it to make money but to feed their own ego(s)so buying a club like Liverpool, Chelsea or United fits that bill rather than say Blackburn or Bolton.

It's about getting their mug on the telly via the most media covered football league in the world rather than making a lot of cash.

It's also becoming pretty obvious that most of the recent dodgy buyers are only getting the money to buy the clubs or purchase players by borrowing cash that becomes part of the debt - little (if any) of their own money is being invested.

There are relatively many people who can find the odd million to sate their ego on an Accy Stanley, fewer but still some who can blow the odd tens of million of their own or some friend's money on a fizzy pop club.

When you get into the £100 million plus needed to do the full package on a PL club, you are getting into rarefied territory and at the billionish for Big 4 you are talking more than the GDP of about 60 members of the UN. There are under 1,000 people in the world with that sort of discretionary cash and more than 50% of them came by the dosh in circumstances that make it difficult for them to spend it on shares in a UK limited company.

Post Lehmann Bros, the amount of new cheap debt available for an entrepreneur's football ego trip is about the same as the overdraft facilities on offer for people of no fixed abode. Gillett and Hicks have had to liquidate their sports holdings in North America and are still mired in a mess at Liverpool, the Glazers are undoubtedly in deep deep trouble at OT and there is no red genie getting them out of it as yet.

Football's credit crunch crash is delayed but on its way and it is difficult to see all of the likes of Stockport, Watford and other fellow travellers in distress being around in August 2010 whilst Pompey are going to be lucky to be at only -10 points in the Championship when next season starts.

[thenodrog]

....I just dont see what £550m gets you with Liverpool other than a poor team in a shiny new stadium!

It gets you the chance to generate large revenues, much bigger than we could ever dream of. If you spent it on Rovers you may get some comparative short term success but unless you could keep investing at the same sort of level it would drop off pretty quickly. And of course there are plenty of examples of people spending a lot of money and getting little or no success.

Does it Kamy? Then why does Liverpools debt burden out do ours by gazillions? All that money coming in for years from the CL but how much profit are they making at the minute? I can't see any investor in football (btw investor = idiot with a death wish... AMS) ever making any money out of the situation as it stands at either Lpool or Man U. No money to be made at tjhe smaller clubs either just the liklehood of losing less!

To service a debt that involves finding in excess of 50m pa even before a ball is kicked makes profit a pipe dream in the current economic climate. Just ask Mike Ashley! Furthermore should anybody actually manage the impossible and make a small profit the fans will immediately that it's spent on some modern Carlos Kickaball (more AMS) with a dodgy hamstring / groin / habit etc. The CL is becoming a house of cards and its high time somebody burst in and slammed the door on em all.

[DE.]

I'm not much of an expert on financial matters, and can only keep an interested eye on certain developments... but it seems to me that the general consensus is that you can't run a football club in our top league without incurring a significant loss, and the chances of ever making profit are slim-to-none.

If that is the case, surely football has failed as a business model and the entire thing needs to be urgently addressed? What's the point in entering a business that will never make you a profit, and will the leagues in their current form stay afloat if no profits are being made and debts are simply increasing? I don't see how such a model is sustainable, but maybe I'm just being simple.

[philipl]

You are correct De4life but football is the ultimate triumph of hope over experience in a business sense.

It has been losing money for 150 years.

Another way of looking at it is that people going in the Darwen End pay £30 for three games, FIFA Football Manager with all features costs about the same, Season Ticket Holders pay around £300 at Ewood, One off corporate entertaining at Ewood is £85 plus VAT per head, one box for one game at Stamford Bridge costs £15,000 plus VAT, owners of PL clubs pay between £10 million and £100 million per season.

It depends how lavishly you want to be entertained and how real you want your game of football manager to be....

The answer to what all that money at Liverpool bought is:

- an £85m Christmas present for the Moores family

- a lot of architect's fees

- and a lot of fees and interest for bankers

- and about £30m net spend for Rafa over and above what Liverpool FC would normally generate for player wages and transfer fees from their usual business activities.

[only2garners]

Does it Kamy? Then why does Liverpools debt burden out do ours by gazillions? All that money coming in for years from the CL but how much profit are they making at the minute? I can't see any investor in football (btw investor = idiot with a death wish... AMS) ever making any money out of the situation as it stands at either Lpool or Man U. No money to be made at tjhe smaller clubs either just the liklehood of losing less!

To service a debt that involves finding in excess of 50m pa even before a ball is kicked makes profit a pipe dream in the current economic climate. Just ask Mike Ashley! Furthermore should anybody actually manage the impossible and make a small profit the fans will immediately that it's spent on some modern Carlos Kickaball (more AMS) with a dodgy hamstring / groin / habit etc. The CL is becoming a house of cards and its high time somebody burst in and slammed the door on em all.

Liverpool still take plenty of money, but are undone by all of it (and more) going on debt repayment. My post was in reply to the suggestion that someone with enough money to get rid of the debt and build a new stadium would then have a much bigger income stream than Rovers could ever have. Of course what they do with the money is usually most owners' downfall.