[Archived] City Away - Monday 11 January 2010

[sambo]

I'm not sure if this has already been mentioned, but Rovers have collected as many points this term as they did at the same stage last season. 21 points from 21 matches played is poor, although often an average of a point a game will be enough to keep a side up.

Awful.. that was mainly Ince too

Reflects badly on Sam tbh.

[speeeeeeedie]

We (a team who can't buy a goal - especially away from home) were easily beaten by a much more talented, faster side.

We were not very good though. I'm no Premiership manager and never will be but I fail to see the positives behind playing a lone striker, hoofing the ball to him, and then hoping for the best. Di Santo is rated by all and sundry. Kalinic also looks like a capable player. Why not give them the opportunity together? As someone mentioned if Mr fitness Grella could gever get off the treatment table this might be an option.

It was not good, and I'm not expecting miracles, I just want us to be 17th or higher after the final whistle is blown on the season. Then the club needs to do some thinking.

After City brought on their sub in the last minute the commentator said that he was the 28th player from the City academy to play for the 1st team. How many do we have?

[The1mattjansen]

Yes, very well put LD. We are a very poor side at the moment and watching us play, its incredibly difficult to see where the points are going to come from.

The lack of finance is of course an issue, but that only highlights how careful we need to be in the transfer market. Unfortunately the larger outlays of Sam's (as infact with most recent managers) have been extremely disappointing.

[Blue blood]

Not sure what was most disappointing about last night.

Perhaps the fact we didn't have a proper go at city until too late?

Blimey, in August when we played them they were panicking every time the ball was lofted in and we pressed them, it was only bad luck, a crap start, and a goal on the break that robbed us of the points. Not much seems to have changed 5/6 months on. When we finally did start to press them, they gave away not only a goal, but a few corners and Given's kicking was poor. Defensively they look VERY edgy. With this in mind, why did we not press them from the get go? Sure keep the defenders back so not to get caught with pace, but midfield and strikers could really have pressed them and caused city some problems.

Maybe it was the fact we can play some nice passing football which works at times?

We had very few moves but the one which stands out was Emerton's shot from the left. Three or four players were involved in the interchange, and though the shot was weak (albeit on emerton's weaker foot) it did suggest that when we play football, we're not that bad a side. We should try it more often - it works.

It could be any of the other things people have mentioned - the most biased commentary ever, utterly comic defending, the fact their centre half could waltz right up to our penalty area unchallenged, the lack of creativity, goodness me it has to be one of the most depressing matches I've watched, and that's going some.

There were a few positives; though he looks raw Holliett showed some promise, we did get a goal - which will do Peds transfer fee no harm at all, we weren't utterly done - at one point I feared an utter rout, and Dunn isn't injured for Thursday. Not a vast list I grant you.

Whilst I DO think we are better off than we were last year under Ince I am not convinced we are progressing as fast as we should. Or more importantly, I don't think we're improving as fast as the other clubs around us, which could be a big problem in terms of survival this season.

Anyone who thinks that Thursday's game vs Villa is less important is wrong. The fans and the team need some hope, some cause for optimism, and at the moment this is all we have left. A good result here, and the mood amongst the fans, and the player's confidence should be lifted, which can only be a good thing.

[DazRover]

451 is absolutely hopeless. Why Sam still play 451 but all of us have seen the result of playing 451.

It has worked, especially against Bolton and burnley. But it relies on Dunny having a blinder....

[Plastic Head]

Often teams getting results against to top sides don't get the credit they deserve.

On this occasion however I think City have got far too much credit for beating a team that would struggle in the Championship currently.

Given the money they have already spent and the level of our performance they should be ashamed not to score at least 8.

[Commondore]

Two strikers means two central midfielders, do we really want to see N'Zonzi and Andrews try to win the middle by themselves? They sure as hell don't do it even with the (limited) support of Dunn, I understand Allardyce's chosen formation in that light.

I didn't see the game last night so I wont be overly judgmental about it, but studying our results against the top four in the league this season the score can hardly have been a surprise? 1-4 seems to be in line of what we usually do against those teams.

As for Laudrup & Ten Cate - WHY do people keep mentioning them? Laudrup was sacked in his last job after just 7 months...Ten Cate after 18 months or so - with clubs in far weaker leagues!

Both unfairly tough, those teams get rid of managers more often than I take out the garbage. Just saying.

[LeftWinger]

I fail to see the positives behind playing a lone striker, hoofing the ball to him, and then hoping for the best.

I don’t think we actually hoofed the ball very often last night. We tried to knock it around a bit, unfortunately a lack of movement and lack of support to Di Santo meant this didn’t work. I’d kill to have Tugay and Flitcroft in our midfield now.

[speeeeeeedie]

I don’t think we actually hoofed the ball very often last night. We tried to knock it around a bit, unfortunately a lack of movement and lack of support to Di Santo meant this didn’t work. I’d kill to have Tugay and Flitcroft in our midfield now.

I know what you are saying, there was more stuff played on the ground in the 2nd half. I do agree though that the lack of support was abysmal.

Above all I think we need some pace and people who will dribble at defenders. That plus a few clean sheets, and goals.

[Beta Ray Bill]

Did anyone hear the classic Keegan-ism at half time when he was talking about Micah Richards?

"I had him when he was 16" - which in itself is quite funny, then he went on to say - "and he was a man then. I don't know what he is now," - maybe a giraffe? - "I guess he's just a bigger man." Very profound, Kev.

Probably the only bright point of the evening.

[T4E]

Awful.. that was mainly Ince too

Reflects badly on Sam tbh.

We gained 13 points from 17 games under Ince. Which means in Sams first 4 games we got 8 points, which set us well on the road to recovery.

I'm livid with Sam and his attitude towards the game at the moment, but no way, in a million years, ever, will he lose out in a comparison to Ince.

[Plastic Head]

Did anyone hear the classic Keegan-ism at half time when he was talking about Micah Richards?

"I had him when he was 16" - which in itself is quite funny, then he went on to say - "and he was a man then. I don't know what he is now," - maybe a giraffe? - "I guess he's just a bigger man." Very profound, Kev.

Probably the only bright point of the evening.

What made me laugh was the talksport trailer for ESPN.

"City have been rejuvenated under Mancini, but Blackburn under Sam Allardyce will put up a massive fight."

Yeah right. You mean totally capitulate and won't have a shot until the 68th minute.

Don't bother putting the telly on unless you want to see a training session. Better to watch England v Pakistan on ESPN classic....

[sambo]

We gained 13 points from 17 games under Ince. Which means in Sams first 4 games we got 8 points, which set us well on the road to recovery.

I'm livid with Sam and his attitude towards the game at the moment, but no way, in a million years, ever, will he lose out in a comparison to Ince.

I don't mean that it reflects badly compared to Ince, just generally his record this season (the only many said we could judge him on).

I hate Ince, and no way believe he could do anything approaching a good job.

[thenodrog]

Perhaps we'd be better starting off 4-6-0 and bring three strikers on for the last 15 minutes

I've always believed in 'Attack is the best form of defence'

So did the Light Brigade Aggy.

[mellison24]

I cba trawling through the previous pages so I'm just going to say what I feel, having calmed down and taped up the hole in the wall of my room:

That was dire. Bloody awful. But at least we scored. The ideas that many of us on this board have said have FINALLY happened (Olsson on the wing, Hoilett starting etc), but is it too late?

When we scored, where was Pedersen playing? That's right, in his preferred position (he is known as a winger, but is better inside). Olsson and Hoilett on the wings injected some pace to our play. Now if I as a humble fan can see this, why can't the big man who actually has a wage for doing it???

From what I can see, this is what we need to play (with what we have):

Robbo

Jacobsen-Samba-Nelsen-Chimbonda

Hoilett-Emerton-Olsson

Dunn-Pedersen

Kalinic

You can swap Givet for Nelsen and/or Benni for Kalinic. I have dropped N'Zonzi as I feel he needs a little break and te others need a chance. Emerton will be just as solid, if not more so in the CM berth, while the wingers have some pace (both) and can cross (Olsson) or cut in (Hoilett). Dunn is in the hole behind the striker, where we know he can play. Pedersen is in (imo) his more dangerous role (he can pass and shoot, as Dunn does), and Kalinic is up front to create/shoot when he can.

Allardyce is REALLY underwhelming me right now. We need to show what we can do in the league VERY soon. He's rapidly falling in my estimations and needs to pull his finger out before we go down. While we are 13th, which is fine, we have played more games than most of those below us and are 3pts from the relegation zone. I used to be a 'half-full' person, but we are 3pts from 10th.....yeah, that's stil 6pts from the relegation zone. I'm worried and something needs doing NOW.

I don't think Allardyce ought to be sacked just yet. But if we end up in the relegation zone under him anytime soon, THAT is the time to get shut. As much as I liked him last year, he's done little this year, no matter how much I've tried to spin it. Every loss and draw has been winnable (even the Arsenal and ManYoo games!) and we are in deep shizle if we carry on being so inept until the dying moments of games, when it's too late.

SORT IT OUT SAM!!!

[thenodrog]

Drog,

We're now in a position that we're damned if we do and damned if we don't and regardless of whether it's a 'hunch' on a new man what our own eyes are telling us is that we're basically @#/? and sinking fast.

With that in mind, should we get 6 points or even 4 in our next 2 league games the chances are that we could beg steal and borrow enough points to stay up, therefore giving Allardyce a stay of execution until the summer when the position would have to be reviewed again. Failure in the next couple of games and chances are we'll be in the bottom 3 and the change will have to be made - I see no alternative.

The list is hardly awe inspiring I agree but I'll ask you, do you think what you're watching is acceptable and showing even the slightest leaning towards survival in this league or even vague improvement and if so , where?

Not sure I agree with your opinion on John Williams getting involved on the playing side, I think he needs to know the players' perception of the manager, although I think it's glaringly obvious when you watch the team play. Also, when how the team performs is the single most important part of his whole business how can he not get involved when things are so obviously going belly up?

You were very vocal in your opinion of Paul Ince and rightly so and I know we're not as bad now, but why are you continuing to defend what is increasingly becoming the indefensible?

No one can defend the indefensible. We are very poor at the moment. But I don't see sacking a manager as the answer, and especially not when I see what is around to replace him.

1. We've had bad luck with injuries to an already weak midfield which is neither good enough to protect the defence nor good enough to support the forwards.

2. Stupid goalkeeping errors that are leaking points away will not change with a new manager.

3. The squad has been weakened dreadfully by sales whether forced or unforced. The players at our disposal now are nowhere near as good as the players that Hughes left behind.

4. Any changes to the personnel take a hell of a long time because of funding and the players own contractual situations .... unless you have the wealth of City or Chelsea.

The problems that we have and which need to be addressed are in midfield personnel and in the goalscoring dept. Allardyces forays into the transfer market have been mixed. Kalinic does not look like a 6m pound man and Van Heerden was a failure whereas Chimbonda, Givet and N'zonzi have been good. The big fault in hindsight was not replacing Tugay but in replacing him with Salgado. Salgado offers nothing to a Prem team imo and I'd loved to have seen Tugay have one last (part) season alongside N'Zonzi.

[Blue n White Rover]

I cba trawling through the previous pages so I'm just going to say what I feel, having calmed down and taped up the hole in the wall of my room:

That was dire. Bloody awful. But at least we scored. The ideas that many of us on this board have said have FINALLY happened (Olsson on the wing, Hoilett starting etc), but is it too late?

When we scored, where was Pedersen playing? That's right, in his preferred position (he is known as a winger, but is better inside). Olsson and Hoilett on the wings injected some pace to our play. Now if I as a humble fan can see this, why can't the big man who actually has a wage for doing it???

From what I can see, this is what we need to play (with what we have):

Robbo

Jacobsen-Samba-Nelsen-Chimbonda

Hoilett-Emerton-Olsson

Dunn-Pedersen

Kalinic

You can swap Givet for Nelsen and/or Benni for Kalinic. I have dropped N'Zonzi as I feel he needs a little break and te others need a chance. Emerton will be just as solid, if not more so in the CM berth, while the wingers have some pace (both) and can cross (Olsson) or cut in (Hoilett). Dunn is in the hole behind the striker, where we know he can play. Pedersen is in (imo) his more dangerous role (he can pass and shoot, as Dunn does), and Kalinic is up front to create/shoot when he can.

SORT IT OUT SAM!!!

A goal difference of -18 and conceded 6 vs Arsenal, 5 vs Chelsea and 4 vs City, yet you want us to play with 6 attacking players?

I said it before, and i'll say it again, it's a good job you are not our manager!

[thenodrog]

Spot on LD! 100% agree. No sudden knee-jerk reaction but a carefull investigation and analysis by JW is needed NOW!!

Accepting that you have probably not read my response to LD Fife I'd prefer

"Spot on LD! 100% agree. No sudden knee-jerk reaction but a carefull investigation and analysis OF JW is needed NOW!!"

[1864roverite]

Almost 20hrs or so to calm down after last nights woeful effort. I have had time to relect on my thought, gather my composure and look at just how inept Rovers were last night.

SA set out a 4-5-1 formation. His team selection did not allow such a formation.

Playing 5 in midfield means playing 5 in midfield with two players in defining positions. The holding midfielder has to hold whils thte attacking midfielder has to be allowed to attack, be given the ball and be covered.

In playing Andrews centrally this is where the problems begin. He runs past or to the ball 99% of the time leaving a bloody big hole behind him this is where Rovers come unstuck time and time again.

Emerton Andrews Dunn NZonzi and MGP could be a useful midfield IF Andrews played in his position. The trouble is he cant, he doesnt, he doesnt have the nouse to play a central berth, he hasnt the skill to read the game, he cant tackle, cant pass, cant head in fact all he can do is create havoc.

Last night, Rovers had the chance to play Reid in that role. He is fit enough to be benched therefore he is fit enough to be on the park, even if its for 70 minutes. Playing him centrally would have at least provided a better option than Andrews.

For Villa, Rovers have to change. Villa play with widemen and speed, they dont go through the middle, when they gop long their midfield and widemen support the strikers.

Rovers have to revert to 4-4-2 and KEEP ANDREWS OFF THE BLOODY PITCH.

He alone is the reason why are conceding so much possession.

I dont want to hear fans defending him, forget it he is crap, crud, dogruff poor and the worst player to grace our team ever. Dont ever compare him to Finnegan, Hildersley and co, they were in a team with nowhere near enough ability yet they still scored goals, they still created and theys till tried for the cause.

BRFC have better options for midfield.

Emerton NZonzi Dunn Reid and MGP = 4-5-1 midfield. Alternatively, change Benni with Dunn, change MGP with Olsson, change Reid with Grella or Diouf, there are clearly options BUT KEEP ANDREWS OFF THE PITCH.

4-4-2 - again Emerton Reid Dunn MGP Grella and Olsson can all be changed BUT KEEP ANDREWS OFF THE PITCH.

Sam and Co hear our message. KEEP ANDREWS OFF THE PITCH.

[mellison24]

A goal difference of -18 and conceded 6 vs Arsenal, 5 vs Chelsea and 4 vs City, yet you want us to play with 6 attacking players?

I said it before, and i'll say it again, it's a good job you are not our manager!

I would actually regard Emerton as a holding midfielder. I also think that attack is the best form of defence. I ALSO thought we played better when we had those lads on the wings and Pedersen in the hole last night, hence my formation.

6 against Arsenal: we had a penalty denied at 3-2, which they scored an we then capitulated. We also had fullbacks playing at centre-back.

5 against Chelsea: About 4 players had swine flu. It's a miracle they were even on the pitch! That virus knocked me out for a week in the summer!

4 against City: Played complete ######.....until Olsson and hoilett were on the wings, Bert in the middle and Pedersen in the hole

Admittedly the defence needs sorting, BUT so does our attack. that formation improves at least one of those judging by the last 30 minutes last night.

[RevidgeBlue]

Gordon, you seem determined to defend Allardyce no matter what but surely it isn't too much to ask for us to be well organised defensively, tough to break down, and a team that works hard off the ball both in making space for ourselves and in closing the opposition down?

That costs nothing. As a follow on to that I would say the team doesn't look particularly fit these days in comparison to most other sides, that costs nothing either.

Final question(s): What if Allardyce has in fact lost the dressing room? Not saying he has necessarily but he wouldn't be the first manager to do so. Do you still plough on with him regardless.

[cesus]

Maybe we do need to look into attack being the best form of defence as from what I've seen playing defensively we tend to concede in the first 20 mins! Nobody here can try to say that playing defensively away from home has helped us, christ we have lost nearly every away game in the last 16!

[broadsword]

Our goal difference is -20 from 11 away games.

So, on the assumption that the away leg is typical for us, then we need to win by 3 at home.

[thenodrog]

Gordon, you seem determined to defend Allardyce no matter what but surely it isn't too much to ask for us to be well organised defensively, tough to break down, and a team that works hard off the ball both in making space for ourselves and in closing the opposition down?

That costs nothing. As a follow on to that I would say the team doesn't look particularly fit these days in comparison to most other sides, that costs nothing either.

Final question(s): What if Allardyce has in fact lost the dressing room? Not saying he has necessarily but he wouldn't be the first manager to do so. Do you still plough on with him regardless.

Dunno Simon. The situations crap but what I do know is that I hate gutless knee-jerking namby pamby's.

[ElTwis]

I have calmed down now since vowing to never watch Rovers again as I left the ground last night. A couple of points though. Firstly, who was that clown towards the back right of the away section who kept trying to chant "where's your driver gone"? He was an embarrassment to an otherwise excellent support. Soemone who made me laugh was a young lad a couple of rows in front of me in an away top with N'Zonzi on the back. He barely said anything then remembered there was a girl next to him at half time and suddenly started shouting and pulling at his shirt acting like he wanted to punch someone. She looked well impressed. Other than that I thought the support was excellent, especially after the third goal when the cheers became ironic. It's all too easy sometimes to depress each other and turn a bad night into something even worse. King Kennys Magic Hat? Class. More of that on Thursday!

That aside, obviously we were awful but I think it will force us into change. It is now painfully clear we cannot play with any sort of defensive mindset or we get 4,5 or 6 put past us. We have to go for it and play with two strikers and a midfield who looks to get it to them in decent positions. No more 50 yard looping "passes" that poor Kalinic and Di Santo don't have a hope with. The one moment of last night I enjoyed was when Olsson beat a man and put in a cracking cross. Obvously, MGP missed it but at that point, just for a second, I actually thought there might be a way back into the match for us. If we have a go, like we did agains Chelsea last month, even if we lose I for one won't be too hard on the team and I think that view would be shared by many in the crowd.

It's not the end of the world like some would have you believe. If only because the performances CANNOT get any worse than that!