[Archived] Enough Is Enough

[Tris]

The funny thing is Gav I think a lot of our opinions on Allardyce and the current situation with the team would be very similar. The main difference IMO is I want him to succeed, whereas I'm not too sure you do.

And there's the rub.

Strange pairing Gordon and Shiitto ... but what a lovely couple ... The rub is this though. No Rovers fan wants failure tonight. Everyone wants a win which takes us past Villa and on to Wembley.

[thenodrog]

Surely if Hughes took up another job, Chelsea still would have to make up the shortfall if he was on a lesser salary?

I'd be surprised if Hughes' agent hasn't already e-mailed his CV to Anfield!

I'm not too sure that Abromovich would be too happy about that Simon but I'm sure the Ayrabs at Eastlands would think it a top result.

[Steve Moss]

Here are our remaining fixtures. I think it's best to concentrate on the next six, which are absolutely crucial. I think we need a minimum of eight points from them. Fail to do this, and a change may well be necessary. For me, Bolton at home will be Allardyce's crunch game. If we are sitting on 29 / 30 points with 11 games to go, I think we'll be fine.

Fulham (h) Draw or win (22 or 24 points)

Wigan (h) Win (25 or 27 points)

West Ham (a) Draw or win (26, 28 or 30 points)

Stoke (a) Draw (27, 29 or 31 points)

Hull (h) Win (30, 32, 34 points)

Bolton (h) Win (33, 35 or 37 points)

Liverpool (a) Loss (33, 35 or 37 points)

Birmingham (h) Loss or Draw (33, 34, 36, 37 or 38 points)

Spurs (a) Loss (33, 34, 36, 37 or 38 points)

Chelsea (h) Loss or Draw (33, 34, 36, 37, 38 or 39 points)

Burnley (a) Draw or Win (34-42 points)

Portsmouth (a) Draw or Win (35-45 points)

Man United (h) Loss (35-45 points)

Everton (h) Loss or Draw (35-46 points)

Wolves (a) Draw or Win (36-49 points)

Arsenal (h) Loss (36-49 points)

Villa (a) Loss (36-49 points)

I've bolded my predictions for the balance of the matches. We currently have 21 points, and I put together a running tally of the points I think we'll acquire as the season progress. I tried very hard to take off my blue and white spectacles and suppress my natural optimism where the Rovers are concerned. Assuming I'm right:

1. we should have 25 or 27 points at the conclusion of the Rover's next two league matches, presumably under Sam.

2. we should have 33, 35 or 37 points by the time the final whistle blows against Bolton.

3. we should end the season with between 36-49 points.

If Sam can't hit those benchmarks as the season progresses, he deserves the sack (as will many of our players, including our so called senior 'stars'). And with the progress of some of our rivals, 36 points will probably be enough to keep us up though it will be very tight. Even so, if he doesn't hit 40 points by end of the season, we should be looking for a new manager come the summer. I say this as someone who has strongly defended Sam in the past, and I will continue to do so for as long as he's making reasonable future progress. Despite this, the progress has to be seen from the next league game (Fulham), as we don't have any more time left to hit the swing of things, at least short term.

The major point, however, is that this season is not an utter disaster, though it has been poor to date. Sam has kept us above six of our rivals. Things could be worse and will likely get better. Heck, we still have decent odds of having a better than average season. Even if we don't, we'll likely squeek through. We need to keep some perspective.

You don't need to illustrate it we already know. How does suggesting another inadequate manager take over illustrate anything?

If we were to sack SA then we should only look at managers who would take a contract until the end of the season. We can then look for something long term in the summer.

I would be looking at these guys for a firefighting job:

Trappatoni

George Graham (old school but I think he would ensure we stayed up)

Hughes (unlikely)

Curbishley (don't like him much but he could do the job until the end of the season)

All these would be good choices if we could get them. But if the major problem is motivating players, I vote for Stuart Pearce.

[thenodrog]

All these would be good choices if we could get them. But if the major problem is motivating players, I vote for Stuart Pearce.

I think we've seen enough of Stuart Pearce to know that he can only motivate himself.... but I'll grant you, he's quite good at doing that.

[Silencio]

I've bolded my predictions for the balance of the matches. We currently have 21 points, and I put together a running tally of the points I think we'll acquire as the season progress. I tried very hard to take off my blue and white spectacles and suppress my natural optimism where the Rovers are concerned. Assuming I'm right:

1. we should have 25 or 27 points at the conclusion of the Rover's next two league matches, presumably under Sam.

2. we should have 33, 35 or 37 points by the time the final whistle blows against Bolton.

3. we should end the season with between 36-49 points.

If Sam can't hit those benchmarks as the season progresses, he deserves the sack (as will many of our players, including our so called senior 'stars'). And with the progress of some of our rivals, 36 points will probably be enough to keep us up though it will be very tight. Even so, if he doesn't hit 40 points by end of the season, we should be looking for a new manager come the summer. I say this as someone who has strongly defended Sam in the past, and I will continue to do so for as long as he's making reasonable future progress. Despite this, the progress has to be seen from the next league game (Fulham), as we don't have any more time left to hit the swing of things, at least short term.

The major point, however, is that this season is not an utter disaster, though it has been poor to date. Sam has kept us above six of our rivals. Things could be worse and will likely get better. Heck, we still have decent odds of having a better than average season. Even if we don't, we'll likely squeek through. We need to keep some perspective.

All these would be good choices if we could get them. But if the major problem is motivating players, I vote for Stuart Pearce.

Pearce is a complete tool. Wouldn't want him anywhere near the club. If the board decides Allardyce has to go then we need to get someone in who will concentrate on getting us organised for four months. Wouldn't want George Graham long-term but I think he would guarantee us staying up, even taking into account how long he has been out of the game.

I don't care about style for now as long as we get results. At the moment Allardyce is giving neither. Let's hope he turns it around in the next week, for his and the club's sake.

[Blueboy Downunder]

it took me about 6 games into the season to lose patience with incey when he was here, due to his match tactics. i have to say that i am now losing patience with sam.....

[jw_]

And yes I think we will see a different Rovers tomorrow.

I certainly hope so 'cause I've been waiting most of the season to see a different Rovers.

[S15]

So smoss, we should end the season with between 36 and 49 points?

Some pretty bold predicting.

[Silencio]

So smoss, we should end the season with between 36 and 49 points?

Some pretty bold predicting.

[Hughesy]

Chris Coleman

14th in the Championship - No thanks...

The only 2 id consider in that league are Billy Davies & O'Driscoll....but I cannot see either of them getting it (should it become available)

[dulwich]

Thats not good enough at all. Name them. Give us your list of at least 3 suitably better replacements.

Sorry Sir, I'll ensure that all my future posts fulfill your criteria in future.

I'll give you three -

• Lee Clarke
  
• Sean O'Driscoll
  
• Steve Tilson
  

And that's just from the lower leagues. Personally, I'd like someone like Leo Beenhakker, someone who's been there, done it.

[Steve Moss]

So smoss, we should end the season with between 36 and 49 points?

Some pretty bold predicting.

It was more of an exercise on what type of progress Sam would have to make to keep me in his corner. I went through and did the math based on how we should be reasonably expected to do each game. It is now perfectly likely that we'll end the season under 40 points, which I would not have believed 5 months ago. Even though we might stay up with a 36-39 point total, I'll have lost faith with Sam, anyway if that is how the season ends. I also think John Williams giving Sam 2 games to re-assure the board is perfectly reasonable, though it should have been kept quiet.

If I had been asked at the beginning of the season how I thought we'd do, I would have said 52-54 points, so our current range is a bit of a let down. Now I think/hope we will end between 42-44 points.

[thenodrog]

Sorry Sir, I'll ensure that all my future posts fulfill your criteria in future.

I'll give you three -

• Lee Clarke
  
• Sean O'Driscoll
  
• Steve Tilson
  

I've no doubt the first 3 would jump at the chance (cos obviously no other club has given them that opportunity, now please explain your thought processes behind those choices and who you would ultimately plumb for.

Cos

1. I realise that every so often an unpolished gem is discovered but we wouldn't want players from those clubs (or ultimately we'd end up playing in their division) so why would we want their managers?

2. Who else in the Prem is likely to take them on or has even be remotely linked with them? The only club that has been mentioned with any of those 3 lower league managers to my knowledge is Burnley. (And of course Wigan got Martinez last summer). Currently though we are above the pair of them.

3. Grayson has at least hauled his club to the top of the table but where are the clubs that these guys are managing in their respective divisions? Have you been playing 'pin the tail on the donkey' by any chance?

Leo Beenhakker? Dunno much about this fella's career but how old is he and how much experience of the bottom half of the Prem has he?

[Silencio]

Sorry Sir, I'll ensure that all my future posts fulfill your criteria in future.

I'll give you three -

• Lee Clarke
  
• Sean O'Driscoll
  
• Steve Tilson
  

And that's just from the lower leagues. Personally, I'd like someone like Leo Beenhakker, someone who's been there, done it.

Those 3 could be considered in the future but you can't seriously think we would appoint them in this situation do you? We need someone to come in and do a firefighting job if we do let go of Sam. Look to the future in the summer I would say.

I wouldn't go near Peter Reid or Paul Jewell but I would look at Graham, Trappatoni or Curbishley on short term contracts. I think any of those 3 would almost definitely keep us up.

It would be better if everyone gets behind Sam in the next two games and we turn it round as we are. Changing the manager again will lead to more difficulties next season. Remember that we haven't got a pot to ###### in.

[PAFELL]

Thats not good enough at all. Name them. Give us your list of at least 3 suitably better replacements.

Mark Hughes - if he would return

Steve Copple - currently with no club

Avram Grant - at least he would get paid on time

Not saying these are perfect choices, but ones that could do a decent and better job than what is being done.

[Silencio]

Now explain your thought processes behind those choices.

Cos

1. I realise that every so often an unpolished gem is discovered but we wouldn't want players from those clubs (or ultimately we'd end up playing in their division) so why would we want their managers?

2. Who else in the Prem is likeley to take them on? The only clubs that have been mentioned with those 3 lower league managers to my knowledge is Burnley, and Wigan got one last summer. Currently we are above the pair of them.

Leo Beenhakker? Dunno much about this fella's career but how old is he and how much experience of the bottom half of the Prem has he?

Theno, I know you don't want rid of Sam but if things were to become untenable in the next week and he was to leave, who would you go for?

[dulwich]

Now explain your thought processes behind those choices.

Cos

1. I realise that every so often an unpolished gem is discovered but we wouldn't want players from those clubs (or ultimately we'd end up playing in their division) so why would we want their managers?

2. Who else in the Prem is likeley to take them on? The only clubs that have been mentioned with those 3 lower league managers to my knowledge is Burnley, and Wigan got one last summer. Currently we are above the pair of them.

Leo Beenhakker? Dunno much about this fella's career but how old is he and how much experience of the bottom half of the Prem has he?

Sorry again Sir.

1. I realise that some clubs do get bitten once a chance is given to someone from the lower leagues, as we showed with Ince. And you're right about the players from said clubs. But in the case of Clark for example, he seems to have enough about him to at least surround himself with the correct calibre of people, something we could never say for Ince.

2. Who else would take them on? Who else would have to? It's common knowledge that we haven't got the funds that perhaps others have, so while we have to take a punt on a player (Samba, N'Zonzi to name 2), why not a manager?

Leo Beenhakker - Current technical director of Feyenoord, managed Ajax, Feyenoord, Real Madrid, Holland. He is 67 though, so perhaps a poor example. Although we are led to believe he was interviewed last time.

If we limit ourselves to a manager who has experience of the bottom half of the Prem, doesn't that say enough about their level of management? As someone once said "Buy First Division players, get First Division football".

[gumboots]

Those 3 could be considered in the future but you can't seriously think we would appoint them in this situation do you? We need someone to come in and do a firefighting job if we do let go of Sam. Look to the future in the summer I would say.

I wouldn't go near Peter Reid or Paul Jewell but I would look at Graham, Trappatoni or Curbishley on short term contracts. I think any of those 3 would almost definitely keep us up.

It would be better if everyone gets behind Sam in the next two games and we turn it round as we are. Changing the manager again will lead to more difficulties next season. Remember that we haven't got a pot to ###### in.

I think we'll all be behind the manager and the team tonight but the problem is that we could then end up doing what we did against Wigan last year. The fans didn't criticise enough after the Liverpool game and Ince was given another chance to lose points and manage a truly abject performance in the next game. I wouldn't hold with booing during the game but if the performance tonight is atrocious then I think by the end of the game the majority of us will be telling the team and the management what we think of them. I don't know who we should appoint if it were to come to sacking allardyce and I'm glad it wouldn't be my responsibility to decide. I am aware that there is a real dearth of available managers out there who could and would come to us, but I can't believe we haven't reached the point yet where the powers that be are seriously looking.

[thenodrog]

Theno, I know you don't want rid of Sam but if things were to become untenable in the next week and he was to leave, who would you go for?

Dunno. Thats why I'm not simply chucking darts blinfolded at a list of lower league managers. I will stay say that I cannot think of anybody better suited than SA to a small northern club with no money. If he has lost his appetite for the job through illness or lost the players then (very reluctantly with the latter... cos that would be twice in a year that those overpaid ponces have rebelled against a manager.... where does a Chairman draw the line? I think we've just seen more overpaid ponces down the road lever Mark Hughes out, and we'd all have him back in an instant).

I may think of someone if necessary (Moyes perhaps. He never seems to enjoy his relationship with Kenwright and may be looking for an alternative but I don't really know much about that situation) but it's hardly gong to be my decision though is it?

[Hughesy]

Mark Hughes - if he would return

Steve Copple - currently with no club

Avram Grant - at least he would get paid on time

Not saying these are perfect choices, but ones that could do a decent and better job than what is being done.

Copple?? There is a reason why he doesnt have a club - not good enough!

Grant? Again cant see him leaving, and would cost us compo

[thenodrog]

Sorry again Sir.

1. I realise that some clubs do get bitten once a chance is given to someone from the lower leagues, as we showed with Ince. And you're right about the players from said clubs. But in the case of Clark for example, he seems to have enough about him to at least surround himself with the correct calibre of people, something we could never say for Ince.BUT THAT IS WHAT ALLARDYCE IS KNOWN FOR.

2. Who else would take them on? Who else would have to? It's common knowledge that we haven't got the funds that perhaps others have, so while we have to take a punt on a player (Samba, N'Zonzi to name 2), why not a manager? HOW MANY OF OUR PLAYERS WOULD RESPECT A VIRTUAL MANAGERIAL NOBODY?

Leo Beenhakker - Current technical director of Feyenoord, managed Ajax, Feyenoord, Real Madrid, Holland. He is 67 though, so perhaps a poor example. Although we are led to believe he was interviewed last time. SO THATS HIM CROSSED OFF THEN.

If we limit ourselves to a manager who has experience of the bottom half of the Prem, doesn't that say enough about their level of management? As someone once said "Buy First Division players, get First Division football". I THINK YOU HAVE CONVENIENTLY FORGET TO SUIT YOUR PURPOISE THAT HIS EXPERIENCE IS TAKING A SMALL TOWN UNFASHIONABLE CLUB TO A REGULAR TOP 8 FINISH AND EUROPEAN COMPETITION. NOTLOB FINISHING IN THE BOTTOM HALF IS SOMETHING THAT HAS HAPPENED WITH REGULARITY ONLY SINCE ALLARDYCE LEFT.

Look dulwich you are impaled on a spilke of your own making so I'll not continue to embarrass you. I'm hardly ecstatic about our situation but unless as I have mentioned Allardyce's illness has rendered him a spent force then I cannot see much option than to stiuck with him. But I also think that if the squad are revolting ( ) as might easily be thae case then the rot is deeper than Allardyce, Ince and Hughes and drastic action needs to be taken their to remove any rotten apples. Rem the Bolton squad of 3 years ago would have run through a brick wall for him.

[Zulu]

I can't believe you are not pushing for the Ginger Mourinho. Most of the popular press told us how stupid we were to let him go.(Something about us being a Championship club punching above our weight as I recall.) If he's that good why does nobody else want him?

[Sysagent]

Thats not good enough at all. Name them. Give us your list of at least 3 suitably better replacements.

Tell you what... Why do you not give us your "list of at least 3 suitably better replacements" eh?

Your very good a flinging the sh1t about Gordon but all I ever see from you posts are just cynically angled, pointed responses, I don't think I can recall in the recent past actually ever seeing you coming up with a solution or alternative, just some snidey comment more often than not.

Go on what do you think we should do in your opinion with the following:-

• The Manager - keep or get rid
  
• If we get rid who is your 3 suitably better replacements
  
• The current state of the team and it's players
  
• The Walker Trust
  

That's just four of the top of my head I can recall you asking other people to give their opinions on whilst you didn't provide anything but vitriol.

Just to pre-empt your usual reply here is my opinion on the four matters

• The Manager - I say keep him for the immediate future, he is working under extremely difficult circumstances, he needs more time, let's see what happens at the end of the Season. Fair enough he has made a couple mistakes, being inflexible with his tactics (but we all knew this would be the case) and the signing of players that he never seems to play, Salgado case in point
  
• 3 suitably better replacements - Hughes (dreamland,never going to happen), Bilic would be a reasonable shout yet again highly unlikely but I am sure he would like to have a PL team on his CV, Michael Laudrup
  
• The current state of the team and it's players - The team is good enough imo at both ends of the pitch, defense and attack wise, it's just that big void in the middle that needs filling this transfer season, once that happens I can see results coming our way
  
• The Walker Trust - Yet again people working under difficult circumstances, the supporters here have to remember that these guys have just had to endure the most difficult two years that the World economy has had to endure, so you can hardly blame them for not throwing the millions around the past season or so... Yet again let's be patient and see what happens in the next year or so...
  And yes my glass is half full.
  

[dulwich]

Don't you worry, I'm far from embarrassed, it'll take more than a little disagreement from our resident keyboard warrior to do that.

The point you are clearly (or conveniently) missing is that a perceived lack of alternatives out there is hardly reason to keep someone who is under-performing in a job.

For instance, as an example, I have a job. I'm clearly not up to it, as my performance month on month shows. My manager won't sack me as they believe that there is no-one out there who'll replace me, working for the same pittance, or under the same constraints. So I'm allowed to carry on my job, results getting worse and worse, the company getting in increasing trouble. Should I be allowed to keep my job? The answer should be no.

As a boss, would you be happy with that Gordon?

[thenodrog]

Don't you worry, I'm far from embarrassed, it'll take more than a little disagreement from our resident keyboard warrior to do that.

The point you are clearly (or conveniently) missing is that a perceived lack of alternatives out there is hardly reason to keep someone who is under-performing in a job.

For instance, as an example, I have a job. I'm clearly not up to it, as my performance month on month shows. My manager won't sack me as they believe that there is no-one out there who'll replace me, working for the same pittance, or under the same constraints. So I'm allowed to carry on my job, results getting worse and worse, the company getting in increasing trouble. Should I be allowed to keep my job? The answer should be no.

As a boss, would you be happy with that Gordon?

Management consultant are you by any chance?

Just a moot point for you, it would take your boss the best part of 6-9 months to get shot of you using standard procedure.

And I'm not sure that he would be allowed to use the term 'sack' or advertise for a replacement.

Apart from that your argument is becoming pedantic.